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Can anyone recommend a good academic biography of Jesus?

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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 05:07 PM
Original message
Can anyone recommend a good academic biography of Jesus?
I'm looking for something that would not offend a Christian but which seeks to take as secular an approach as would be practical to discussing what is generally understood about his life and what the Middle East was like during the time of his life. If it's asking too much for a secular academic view of Jesus' life, I'd settle for a fairly ecumenical view (perhaps something along the lines of Lost Christianities which was seemed to be a fairly academic look at the early years of the Christian church(es) without too much proselytizing for one view over another).
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marylanddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. Not to start a war or anything, but

isn't there some question as to whether there really WAS a Jesus?
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Shhh! You WILL start a war or something!
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dr.strangelove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. If you mean a guy living around Nazareth about
2000 years ago, so there are a few rather vague references to the man, but enough to convince me that he actually existed. If you mean did he exist in the biblical sense (i.e. walking on water and rose from the dead) then I would agree.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. If you have an historical JC there isn't any need for faith.
Like many man-god myths this one was much better accepted outside of the people which might have have kept some historic record.

I've seen dozens of references to Kojak, but I don't think the bald headed candy sucking lawman of New York was real.


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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I'm not assuming there is anything remotely secular written about Jesus
the miracle worker who walks on water and rises from the dead. I do suspect, however, that there must be some relatively non-biased efforts at sorting out what evidence there is, discussing the conflicts and consistencies among various gospels and gnostic texts and new testament apocrypha, etc.

I'm not looking for a book that would either replace or augment or undercut anyone's faith, but which would treat the subject as an historical matter.
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
36. Anything By Marcus Borg!
Elaine Pagels is another one

Borg is on the "Jesus Seminar" panel

you might refer to any book about the Jesus Seminar as an attempt to discover the historical Jesus vs. the mythical Jesus that had his life written about him after the fact.
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dr.strangelove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Not quite sure thats the same thing.
With Kojak you have a figure that has been established as myth. there is no doubt. Jesus the Nazerian, whom started a cult that grew to be one of the world's richest organizations, may or may not be a myth. There are references to him in the writings of Heroditus. We also know that Heroditus was, at times, not the most accurate writer of history. Heroditus tells us of several men named Jesus at this time (it was not a popular name, but was in active use). According to Heroditus, in Jerusalem there was a chief Priest of the Temple named Jesus. In Nazareth there was another Jesus who was a murderer and there was a fisherman named Jesus. There is also a reference to the teacher, whom many christians think is the reference to their Jesus.

There was a man named Jesus, several actually. Was one of them a traveling bard who started a cult? Maybe. I don't know, but I'm fairly sure I would not approach questions about his existence the same way I would seek to prove Kojak exists. First century figures are difficult to establish unless they were leaders of the upper classes who would be written about. Even 100 years after his purported death, his cult was small and scattered. Hardly what would make any news, maybe local cable access today or a blog about cults, but not MSM.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
25. GAAASSP!
OMG! Lock the doors! Find the children! Not in that order!
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. There is none.
To the best of my knowledge, there are only one or two vague references to the mere existence of a historical Jesus. Every other reference or "biography" is from religious texts.
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flyingfysh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. here is something rather nice
Since you like Ehrman, how about this course (on DVD!) about the historical Jesus:

http://www.teach12.com/store/course.asp?id=643&d=Historical+Jesus&pc=Religion

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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Did you see this one?
History of the Bible: The Making of the New Testament Canon

also by Ehrman...... looks very interesting. (And it's on sale, too!)

http://www.teach12.com/ttc/assets/coursedescriptions/6299.asp?pc=HomePageFeature


My son asked me if he watched ALL The Teaching Company videos if he ever had to do any other "work". LOL.... He's currently into the Ancient Egypt one.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
4. gee, I thought that was what the 4 gospels were.

:shrug:
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flyingfysh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. the gospels are not histories
For one thing, who wrote them? The purported writers are not supposed to have known Greek. There are distinct differences in viewpoint, with John being quite different from the rest.

Scholars have spent a great deal of effort trying to figure out where the various parts probably came from, and in some cases infer the existence of now-lost sources.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Hey, I'm not a believer. But the gospels ARE put forward as history
If you don't believe me, just ask any Fundie, or contact Jerry Falwell, he can set your understanding back on the right course!
:sarcasm:

Sorry if I seem cynical, but I am and there is nothing I can do about it. The flying spagetti monster rules my belief system.
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flyingfysh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. for someone who insists these are history
Consider this puzzle: 2 different gospels contain entirely different geneologies of Jesus. Not only that, one of them goes through Joseph - so much for the "virgin birth" doctrine. There is also the issue of how Friday to Sunday makes 3 days and 3 nights.

But you are right, some insist these are historical, in spite of glitches like these. There are many more.
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clydefrand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. Suggestion: Do a search on Bishop John Spong and his
Edited on Mon Nov-28-05 05:19 PM by clydefrand
books. I've read several of his books and found them to be very informative. Will try to do a search myself to find something for you.

Take a look at this site for a list of his books.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/002-3706800-5440000?url=index%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=John+Spong&Go.x=10&Go.y=8
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chemp Donating Member (569 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
9. just got a good one in my e-mail
http://www.carotta.de/eindex.html
"On the one hand, an actual historical figure missing his cult, on the other, a cult missing its actual historical figure: intriguing mirror images."
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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
10. I would expect that there must be some academic texts which discuss and
evaluate both the meager non-Biblical textual evidence of his existence and also discuss the relative reliability/incredibility of the various religious texts supporting the suppositions about what life events are most likely and least likely to be true. Surely, there must also be some histories which discuss this matter in the context of what life was like back then.

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clydefrand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Again, please take a look at my previous post.
Bishop John Shelby Spong has written a lot of books which incorporate faith and history. Take a look at the amazon.com site for his books.
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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I will. Thanks for the suggestion.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
15. Norman Mailer wrote a wonderful book called
The Gospel According to the Son...

Pretty cool take on the Jesus myth...
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
19. Here are some of mine:
Excavating Jesus by John Dominic Crossan and Jonathan Reed. Anything by Crossan is interesting as he is considered the greatest living authority on Jesus. (jasper)

Jesus, An Historian's Review of the Gospels by Michael Grant (scribner)

Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls by James H. Charlesworth (doubleday)

And my absolute FAVORITE one:

Jesus the Heretic by Douglas Lockhart (element)

Robert Funk writes about Jesus and has a forum that discusses the gospels in detail. google him. he just passed away a few weeks ago. big loss.
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holboz Donating Member (641 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
21. I'm going to crazy trying to remember the title of this book...
Edited on Mon Nov-28-05 06:08 PM by holboz
It was part of a course I took back at university 10 years ago entitled "Who or What is Jesus?".Although it was taught by a priest, he approached it from a totally academic point of view. Surprising, I know.

I'm bookmarking this thread in hopes I can go through my closet and find this book. I highlighted the hell out of it; I was raised a Southern Baptist but quit the church when I was 15 and it was my first exposure to Jesus from an academic point of view. I loved that book.

I'll see if I can find it so I can give you the details!

on edit: syntax
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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Please do. I took 16 hours of Latin from a very jaded ex-Jesuit who used
the Bible as his main text (this was at the University of Texas, a very secular public university). He also took an extremely academic approach and never offended the atheists or non-Judeo-Christians in the classes.
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
22. There was a wonderful book 20 years ago, which was made into
an equally wonderful movie. Jesus of Nazareth was the title I believe. Not academic but very readable. Several preachers in N. Carolina et al (who incidentally had not read the book or seen the movie) railed against its alleged blasphemy for depicting Jesus as a man. Jesus did live I feel strongly. He left very valuable lessons which modern America ignores while it accepts the gospel of George and buys itself into more and more debt. As to whether Jesus is the son of God, we'll all know someday.
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Buck Turgidson Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
23. Here's a picture of Jesus. Forensic reconstruction!
The Real Face Of Jesus
Advances in forensic science reveal the most famous face in history.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1282186.html
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Jesus had a bad comb-over?
Whoa.
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Berserkr Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
27. CHECK THIS OUT! REAL RESEARCH ON ORIGINS OF CHRISTIANITY AND JESUS CHRIST
Sorry about the screaming headline but I've been reading posts here for quite some time now and this is the first time I decide to create an account.

BTW. Hello all :hi: . Great site, great people. DU is where I get my news from.

Last year I saw a lecture called "The Pharmacratic Inquisition", and it's available online at www.gnosticmedia.com/DL.html . This lecture is brought forward by two men, Jan Irwin and Andrew Rutajit, who have been doing serious studies on the origins of christianity. Together they have been writing a book called "Astrotheology and Shamanism" (yes...they start at the beginning) and it will be published sometime in the next few weeks. I've been waiting for this book since I first saw this lecture. It traces the roots of early christianity to ancient Egypt and shows how the stories about Jesus Christ were not originally about a person but a mythology like in ancient Greece and Rome. They talk about many man-god-heroes who had the same stories told about them in ancient times. It also traces some stories directly to Egyptian sun worship, the stars and other religions from around (ever heard of Mithra/Mitra?). Many of those man-god-heroes had their birthday at winter solstice (summer solstice in the southern hemisphere), just like JC did, and they will tell you why.

This lecture totally blew my mind and has been blowing my mind ever since, I've now seen it 5-6 times and I always learn something new. Now I can't wait for their book. This lecture also teaches the basics of religious symbolism so everybody who read the DaVinci code should be interested in this (this has no affiliation with the DaVinci code and Dan Brown's version is not their view on things).

Be sure to check this book out in the next weeks. It will be available on amazon.com . I am not affiliated with this website or book in any other way than being a member of the discussion forums there.

Most times I tell people about this lecture they say ...3 HOURS:..MAN!!..and they don't watch. So before you go tell me that I'm full of it (I get that a lot), I request that you watch this video, and then we can talk. I'm posting this here because I know most people here are not willfully ignorant like so many people are. It cannot be said that everything there is 100% accurate but since recent history is so skewed and ancient history even more so, we shouldn't think that the church got the story of JC 100% right either.

Be sure to check out the list of known errors (the lecture is more than 3 hours) and the book list.

Truth will set you free!

HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY RECOMMENDED! I CANNOT STRESS THAT ENOUGH!
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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Thanks and welcome
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
29. A.N. Wilson's JESUS: A LIFE is outstanding.
Edited on Mon Nov-28-05 11:21 PM by Old Crusoe
His book on Paul is also very good.

Maybe also try a well-researched and provocative biographical novel: Nikos Kazantzakis' THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST.
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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. What is his take on Paul? I'm not a big fan of Paul.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. You and I agree on Paul. I think he was a bit of a sheister, no question.
Wilson offers an imaginative read on Paul's relationship with the Twelve.

I won't spoil it, but it's awfully good.

Also: A.N. Wilson does a terrific individual study of Paul.

Check him out.
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grumpy old fart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
30. L Michael White's: Jesus to Christianity
I found it an excellent academic treatment of the subject. No preaching, just well rounded exposition of the known facts and theories of the time of Christ through about the 4th century.
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SkiGuy Donating Member (451 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
32. Long but good
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
34. Albert Schweitzer's "The Quest of the Historical Jesus"
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/schweitzer/

The German theologian Schweitzer, writing before WWI, intends his work as a contribution to Christian theology -- and particular on the efforts up to his time to allow scientific and historical reflection on the data, such as it is (and Schweitzer says clearly "From these materials we can only get a Life of Jesus with yawning gaps"), to inform faith.

Here is a sample from early in the work:

The critical study of the life of Jesus has been for theology a school of honesty. The world had never seen before, and will never see again, a struggle for truth so full of pain and renunciation as that of which the Lives of Jesus of the last hundred years contain the cryptic record. One must lead the successive Lives of Jesus with which Hase followed the course of the study from the 'twenties to the 'seventies of the nineteenth century to get an inkling of what it must have cost the men who lived through that decisive period really to maintain that 'courageous freedom of investigation' which the great Jena professor, in the preface to his first Life of Jesus, claims for his researches. One sees in him the marks of the struggle with which he gives up, bit by bit, things which, when he wrote that preface, he never dreamed he would have to surrender. It was fortunate for these men that their sympathies sometimes obscured their critical vision, so that, without becoming insincere, they were able to take white clouds for distant mountains. (The Quest of the Historical Jesus)


And from Chapter XX (Results):

There is nothing more negative than the result of the critical study of the Life of Jesus.

The Jesus of Nazareth who came forward publicly as the Messiah, who preached the ethic of the Kingdom of God, who founded the Kingdom of Heaven upon earth, and died to give His work its final consecration, never had any existence. He is a figure designed by rationalism, endowed with life by liberalism, and clothed by modern theology in an historical garb. (The Quest of the Historical Jesus)


I think that in a fundamental way, Schweitzer saw clearly what the dogmatists have never seen:

Jesus means something to our world because a mighty spiritual force streams forth from Him and flows through our time also. This fact can neither be shaken nor confirmed by any historical discovery. It is the solid foundation of Christianity.

The mistake was to suppose that Jesus could come to mean more to our time by entering into it as a man like ourselves. That is not possible. First because such a Jesus never existed. Secondly because, although historical knowledge can no doubt introduce greater clearness into an existing spiritual life, it cannot call spiritual life into existence. History can destroy the present; it can reconcile the present with the past; can even to a certain extent transport the present into the past; but to contribute to the making of the present is not given unto it. (The Quest of the Historical Jesus)


In holding up Schweitzer as a source, I do not intend to minimize certain subsequent objections to his work (as, for example, those based on the observation that he may have had certain racist or anti-semitic ideas): I do, however, want to say explicitly that he provided an early and clear statement of the modern view that essentially nothing definite can be said with any certainty regarding the life of Jesus of Nazareth and honest inspection reveals that whatever is claimed, to be definite, is essentially fictitious; thus modern Christianity must seek the basis for its faith in something other than historical evidence. Since Schweitzer's time, a few additional texts have been discovered, and archaeology as a science has made some progress, but these developments really make no significant difference to Schweitzer's conclusions. Additional intellectual techniques for analysis have been applied to the questions Schweitzer raised (notably, over several generations, the application of historical Marxist methods to the texts), which suggestively extract further information from the (limited) data, but Schweitzer's objections remain more or less unaffected.

And I personally find Schweitzer's subsequent effort to live the meaning of his Christianity in Africa (even if contaminated by his own ethnocentric heresies) profounding touching.

Albert Schweitzer
The Nobel Peace Prize 1952
Nobel Lecture, November 4, 1954
The Problem of Peace

... But the essential fact which we should acknowledge in our conscience, and which we should have acknowledged a long time ago, is that we are becoming inhuman to the extent that we become supermen. We have learned to tolerate the facts of war: that men are killed en masse -- some twenty million in the Second World War -- that whole cities and their inhabitants are annihilated by the atomic bomb, that men are turned into living torches by incendiary bombs. We learn of these things from the radio or newspapers and we judge them according to whether they signify success for the group of peoples to which we belong, or for our enemies. When we do admit to ourselves that such acts are the results of inhuman conduct, our admission is accompanied by the thought that the very fact of war itself leaves us no option but to accept them. In resigning ourselves to our fate without a struggle, we are guilty of inhumanity.

What really matters is that we should all of us realize that we are guilty of inhumanity. The horror of this realization should shake us out of our lethargy so that we can direct our hopes and our intentions to the coming of an era in which war will have no place ...

Is the spirit capable of achieving what we in our distress must expect of it?

Let us not underestimate its power, the evidence of which can be seen throughout the history of mankind. The spirit created this humanitarianism which is the origin of all progress toward some form of higher existence. Inspired by humanitarianism we are true to ourselves and capable of creating. Inspired by a contrary spirit we are unfaithful to ourselves and fall prey to all manner of error.

The height to which the spirit can ascend was revealed in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. It led those peoples of Europe who possessed it out of the Middle Ages, putting an end to superstition, witch hunts, torture, and a multitude of other forms of cruelty or traditional folly. It replaced the old with the new in an evolutionary way that never ceases to astonish those who observe it. All that we have ever possessed of true civilization, and indeed all that we still possess, can be traced to a manifestation of this spirit ...

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1952/schweitzer-lecture-e.html










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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
35. If anyone's still interested: "The Changing Faces of Jesus" by Geza Vermes
This academic yet accessible book tackles the question of Jesus' identity by attempting to strip away theological and historical interpretations in order to reach the original, Jewish, human Jesus. Vermes, professor emeritus of Jewish studies at Oxford, begins with the Gospel of John, which he asserts was the first to ascribe divine status to Jesus, and proceeds through the Pauline letters, the Book of Acts and the Synoptic Gospels. Along the way, he dismantles any statements about Jesus' life that he feels to be inaccurate or questionable. Vermes argues instead that if one returns to the actual and indisputable words of Jesus as stated by the Synoptic Gospels, and if one also takes into account the historical and Jewish religious tenor of the time, Jesus is revealed as a "prophet-like holy man, mighty in deed and word, a charismatic healer and exorcist." Vermes's Jesus is a teacher concerned with the Kingdom of God on earth, in the tradition of other Jewish holy men. The book sometimes engages in speculative reasoning: for example, a) Luke was an associate of Paul, b) Paul's theology is missing from Acts, c) "one would have expected an associate of Paul to do better than that," so d) Luke must not have written Acts. For the most part, however, Vermes ably poses the critical questions that have characterized the "quest for the historical Jesus," adding a few of his own.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0670894516/102-7470805-0848164?v=glance&n=283155


Vermes came from a Jewish family, was adopted by a Christian one, started training as a priest, and then went back to the Jewish faith. He authored the standard translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls into English, so is an expert on the time period.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 09:04 PM
Original message
La Favola di Cristo or The Fable Of Christ...By Luigi Cascioli
The academic that you are looking for does not exist; all that you will find that has been written about the life of Jesus is nothing more then speculation on what could have been and not what really was.

What was is nothing more then a fairy tale, Jesus is not what he has been made out to be by the Church. Jesus Christ never existed and that is proven in the THE FABLE OF CHRIST, Jesus is no more then Zeus, Odin or any other mythical figure..Christianity/Jeudoism is nothing but a fossil and its importants is nonexistent.

Not only did Jesus NOT exist, but even the crucifixtion is false along with many other things that so many have come to believe; in reality millions of people have been lied to by yet another major corperation called the Church.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
37. La Favola di Cristo or The Fable Of Christ...By Luigi Cascioli
The academic that you are looking for does not exist; all that you will find that has been written about the life of Jesus is nothing more then speculation on what could have been and not what really was.

What was is nothing more then a fairy tale, Jesus is not what he has been made out to be by the Church. Jesus Christ never existed and that is proven in the THE FABLE OF CHRIST, Jesus is no more then Zeus, Odin or any other mythical figure..Christianity/Jeudoism is nothing but a fossil and its importants is nonexistent.

Not only did Jesus NOT exist, but even the crucifixtion is false along with many other things that so many have come to believe; in reality millions of people have been lied to by yet another major corperation called the Church.
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BrewAz Donating Member (147 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
38. The book: "Rabbi Jesus" by Bruce Chilton
Is an historic look at Jesus.

Sorry I am so late with this input...just read the post.

BrewAz
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