Is the fundies' God like Tinkerbell?

I raise the question because it seems to me that the fundies are extraordinarily defensive about how and to what extent God and Jesus are acknowledged and worshipped publicly. DildO'Reilly got his panties in a bunch about people saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas," as if this practice somehow would actually do harm to God. So -- is their God so weak that he can't handle any reduction in public adulation? I think of an analogy to "Peter Pan," in which a fairy would die every time a child said she didn't believe in fairies, and Tinker Bell was brought back to life when the children clapped. If God is real, I should think he exists regardless of whether we believe in him or not. If Jesus is divine, he will remain so even if nobody says "Merry Christmas" and nobody puts nativity scenes on courthouse lawns. Do the fundies have such a feeble God that he will die if all the children don't clap?

Where a reduction in believers diminished the size, shape and power of a god (in Discworld, there are a multitude of gods...all very odd, it seems.)

Thanks for starting it.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

So just do it until he regains his self esteem.

said "Happy Holidays" not "Merry Christmas"

:shrug:

The argument goes something like this: ‘I refuse to prove that I exist,’ says God, ‘for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.’ 'But,’ says Man, ‘the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn’t it? It could not have evolved by chance, it proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don’t QED.’ 'Oh dear,’ says God, ‘I hadn’t thought of that,’ and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic, “’Oh, that was easy,” says Man...

Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

I am a Christian and am pretty much with them on this.I also know family/friends who are more moderate and dont attend church much but feel the same way.people who consider themselves christians feel that they and the Christian religion alone are being singeled out as "non politicaly correct" and pushed out of public life in Every way.The feel pushed by those who don't believe (all the court cases against manger scenes,childern being told no Christmas plays,no Christmas Carrols,no mention of Merry Christmas at all in school,etc) One town put up a Menorah(SP?) on public property and said it was ok because it was "Historic" but no manger scene was allowed.So a woman went to court and Won and bought her own to put up on town property.But the town is still fighting it in court for next year.(this year it went up because she paid for it herself).

People feel pushed and they are now pushing back.I think it's good because you either ban it all (Jewish,mushim,Pagan,Kwanza) or you make room for all.

Of course, all religions must be treated equally; the Constitution says public funds can't be used to promote one religion over another. No doubt in a few cases some people have gone overboard to try to avoid offending one group or another. But do you have to have a manger scene on the courthouse lawn in order to believe? Is anyone preventing you from going to whatever church you prefer? Is God diminshed if we greet each other with "Happy Holdiays" instead of "Merry Christmas?" Or is the real issue not God, but that some "Christians" -- O'Reilly, Falwell and their ilk -- want to make damn sure that everybody knows who really "owns" this country?

Stoping anyone from worshiping,and no, you don't need a manger scene in public to believe.Like i said,that's not the point at all.

Christians feel they and there religion are singeled out,Non politicaly correct, and therefore kicked out of public life because some non believers don't want them there.In many cases it is only the very few who complain and use the courts to get christianity "kicked out" of public life but it affects many,many people (not just religious conservativs). I seldom go to church at this point,my cousins and niece have not gone in YEARS, but we all have had enough of the crazy "no christmas carrols in school,no christmas plays etc etc etc.It's not One thing,it's ALL of it together.Sometimes people just reach a point where they say NO MORE.
Now WE are offended and were not taking any more.I don't fight about this stuff,but i understand why some do.

So, being the huge majority, how in the world can they be "kicked out" of anything? And, for that matter, why do they feel they have a "right" to display their symbols in public places or observed in public schools, and to assume an air of injury if somebody brings up the First Amendment, which prohibits the "establishment" of religion? Sorry, I'm not buying it. This poor, beleaguered *majority* needs to knock the chip off its own shoulder, stop pissing and moaning that they are being vicitmized, and remember what Christianity is all about. And that's NOT garish manger scenes on every block and the mandatory greeting of "Merry Christmas," which is what DildO'Reilly seems to want to impose on the rest of us. The United States is a secular nation; the Founding Fathers stated very specifically that its government is not specifically Christian. So let's everybody go to the church, synagogue or mosque of our choice, or nothing at all if that's what we prefer; do the best to observe the tenets of our faith; and stop all the damn whining about oppression that doesn't exist.

Once again if no manger scenes are allowed etc then lets CLEAN the public square of ALL Jewish,Muslim,Kwanza etc symbles also. If ALL can't have access then NONE may have access.

Also, The founding fathers said "Congress shall make NO LAW regarding the establishing of religion or prohibiting the free excersize thereof". But they hired a chaplin for the congress,they quoted the Bible, and in there day Christianity was in school and public life. They did not intend a religion free zone anywhere.


I'll stop bitching when your side stops bitching at us and telling us to shut up
and sit down.

That's all.

And, by the way, I also consider myself a Christian, but I don't feel in the least discriminated against. To me, faith is what's in your heart, not what you're flaunting in public. And I guess I haven't noticed a proliferation of Hanukkah menorahs and Kwanzaa stuff in public places, to the exclusion of Christian stuff. And I'm only suggesting that there are better ways of practicing one's faith, such as by helping the poor, than making a big hoo-hah over who gets to have their religious symbols all lit up in some public place, playing my-God-is-bigger-than-your-God.

Of COURSE i believe in helping the poor,AND MY FAMILY DOES THAT.
We have helped a drug rehab,the city mission,and many groups we believe in over the years and still do,in addition to helping cousins,nieces,nephews,etc who where poor then and needed help.

I don't exactaly feel persecuted.I feel that a vocal minority wants to take rights away from the majority.You see what you want to see.That's fine. I don't happen to agree and i won't shut up about it till stupid,"politicaly correct" crap,like no christmas carrols or mention of Christmas in any way is inflicted on owr children in school by the anti-religionists.All i want is some sanity to return on this.

my mom is a teacher and a Christian and she did talk about it. Stop using hyperboles.

and what do you mean "no christmas carrols"? where?

this stuff is crazy enough.I don't need to make it up.

If so, give a link. i want the details.

I was assuming that everyone had heard this stuff.Sorry if that was a bad assumoption.Sorry for the bad spelling.Spell check isn't so great,and i am beat.Going to bed now.

Sorry if i offended anyone.Not my intention.I got frustrated trying to explain.

Night all.

others.

I said in another thread when i say someone saying how bad it is for Christians in this country I would link the following thread...Chinese police break up Christmas Mass, arrest priest...real Christian persecution!

When you you are no longer allowed to worship, then there is a problem, but to scream discrimination at every turn is disingenuous!

who could be put to good use doing some *real* persecution of Christians? To suggest that a group representing 85% of the population is somehow being oppressed is just nonsense.

I can be a real sweetheart. Piss me off, and I am a raging bitch! I am sick to death of people screaming about oppression in the US because they are Christian! Are some rude comments made here at DU about Christians? Hell yes! I have even made comments about those rude comments. But this constant whining about "oppression" in the US for Christians, is really pissing me off! Try being a Jew..or a pagan...or an atheist..or gay..or....lots others can be filled in there! Disagreeing with or tweaking a group, does not make you oppressed! Seems to me that most of the Christians on the DU understand this...just a few here are always going to be the victim!

"Can't we all get along?" Not as long as people keep playing the victim card! If one is discriminated against, then fight! But learn what real discrimination is! <rant off>

Brightest Blessings to all!

even that we are oppressed.We are marginalized,and persecuted by a vocal few,but this few have done alot of damage in some areas.You can't deny that MANY people(Not just christian fundys)have reached a level of "i ain't taking this laying down anymore".That is where we are at now,and it wont stop just because some get angrey that we are speaking up and bitching back.I guess we all just have to deal with it.I try to find areas of agreement where i can,but i wont lay down and let the anti-religion/christian-istis walk over me either.

- You can't be "marginalized" when you comprise 85% of the population.

- You can't be "persecuted" by "a few". Impossible.

- Not being allowed to put a nativity scene on public property, or not being able to lead a Christian prayer over a school PA system, is not "a lot of damage."

- How exactly does "I don't want public money being used to promote your religion" equate with "anti-religion/christian-ists" walking all over you?

and you know it,if you really read this thread.

You have implied persecution in several of your threads, which prompted me to post what I did.

I am a Christian and am pretty much with them on this.I also know family/friends who are more moderate and dont attend church much but feel the same way.people who consider themselves christians feel that they and the Christian religion alone are being singeled out as "non politicaly correct" and pushed out of public life in Every way. This sounds like a statement of persecution to me.

Christians feel they and there religion are singeled out,Non politicaly correct, and therefore kicked out of public life because some non believers don't want them there.In many cases it is only the very few who complain and use the courts to get christianity "kicked out" of public life but it affects many,many people (not just religious conservativs). Yet another example, you provided.

And the coup de gras...I don't exactaly feel persecuted.I feel that a vocal minority wants to take rights away from the majority. Is not "exactly" being persecuted, similar to being a "little pregnant?"

So, you don't "claim" persecution by using the word, but you do imply it, or do you not see this?

An interesting side note. As I looked up 'persecution' on dictionary.com, the 4 google ads to the side linked to: "persecuted Christians," a Christian survey, voice of the martyrs (a Christian site), and a movie link. Three of the four use the word Christian, I find that VERY interesting and VERY telling!

But in most other places, the correct rules are being applied. One incident doesn't mean the whole country is attacking Christians over other religions.

BTW, the US supreme court has interpreted the constitution to not mean congress alone.

Also, Christianity is of course allowed in school, just by the students independent of the school establishment.

important contribution of the United States of America to humanity.
Coupled with the guarantee of free exercise of religion we have the best of all worlds. I certainly have never told anybody to shut up and sit down because of their religion, but public funds should not be used to promote religion. I have no problem if a local church wants to erect an enormous creche. In fact I once saw a live nativity scene and was quite impressed. But I don't want schools to be promoting religion, and I don't want the courthouses to have the Ten Commandments enshrined in them. The US is only a Christian nation in the sense that a lot of Christians live here. Legally, according to the Constitution, it is a secular nation with freedom of, and from religion.

To say that the Constutition says we have freedom FROM religion is not ecactaly correct.We have the freedom to be any religion or no religion,but not to be free from any mention or show (whatever you call it) of religion.I don't want the school to TEACH religion.I just want the kids to be able to sing christmas carrols if they want to,to say Merry Christmas,or have a Christmas play if they want to be a part of it.We can even call it history if people feel that is a better way.We did all this in school for YEARS but reciently,it's all canciled.Children were even told NOT to say Merry Christmas in school so no one else would be offended.In my opinion that is INSANE.
We dont need public funds.We just want the freedom to a few simple things that were always fine,in the past,but now are banned so as to offend no one else.

a few of these "christmas under attack" stories have been debunked. please read this

http://mediamatters.org/items/200412230003

media matters has a few other stories up.

Edit: here's one about the Menorah vs Nativity story

http://mediamatters.org/items/200412210008

Edit 2: Caroling wasn't banned either...
http://mediamatters.org/items/200412150003

As usual, these examples of Christian "persecution" end up either being exaggerated, or not given in the proper context with ALL the facts.

be left out of the school plays. Singaled out as the "different" ones and not be able to participate. I think that is sick and mean. Kids are forced to go to school, they should not be made to feel like they are the "odd ones out" because you want your kid to sing christmas carols during school hours.

Would it be Ok with you if the kids had a Pagan play at school. I can see the uproar now.

Religious displays should not be in government funded places where people are forced to go like schools, courthouses etc.

In your homes or businesses I say display it all you want and do it with pride.

No one is stopping you even though you are willing to stop those children who are unlike yours and make them feel "left out"

EVERYTHING. How could they be marginalized? Just because other groups are trying to make things fair and NOT have Christianity thrust upon them at every turn! Our country is FOUNDED on separation of church and state and these selfish gop christians insist on turning our country into a christofascist state. I feel ZERO pity for them. They are perfectly free to worship in their chosen faith but they are Pharisees and must force everyone to do it their way, or else.

You'll still see plenty of Christmas references in malls, stores, TV, Internet, and radio. The other holidays aren't even close to being as visible.

Most people at DU seem to celebrate it too.

I really am sorry if this offends you, but I must call BS on this point of view. In the last US census, 85% of the country claimed that they were some shade of Christianity. I would also bet that if you compared the number of non-religious-persecution-related lawsuits to the total number of all lawsuits filed each year, you would find quite a shocking ratio; I would go so far as to say that the laws of probability pretty much demand that eventually someone sues over "In God We Trust" on our currency.

To this oppressed majority: You feel pushed? How is someone whose peer group is in control of everything "pushed," exactly?

The thing that scares me is that this group is whipping itself into a fever pitch about who exactly is oppressing them; if anyone thinks that the label "enemy" will be applied to only gays, hold on to your bowtie.

You are not the only one allowed to be offended. I would say that yes 85% claim some form of Christian identity.ALL the lawsuits comepared to those about religion? No way to compare the two.
People sue over a hangnail these days. The church is NOT in control of America.Bush being a christian does not a theocracy make.
If CHRISTIANS were in control there would not be a debate,would there? The church will Never control America and no Christian i know would ever want that.When the state controls religion or the religion controls the state the church will become totaly corrupt (like governments do) and will die.

I don't see anyone whipping themselves into a frenzy over anything.
It was not only religious conservativs that voted for the anti gay marriage banns.America isn't ready. That hurt us in this election.Blacks voted against it and moderates,as well as conservativs.That is just the bare facts.

I know it's hard to believe, but gay marriage did not hurt Kerry. here are several articles...

http://www.freedomtomarry.org/resources_new.asp?node=132

I saw the woman who took the town to court in an interview (she had her lawyer there). I wish i could remember the town name.Maybe i'll try to find it later.I know it still is to be decided about next year.Her win this year was some kind of temporary thing till the final decision was made.

cause i never heard about it, and i pay attention to such things.

the spirit of spirituality to me - like the holy ghost - the fundie jesus is not god and God would have nothing to do with them or their sick beliefs

the life force is spirit and for me that is tinker bell - a symbol of the magic of life that is inside us and our bodies and then it magically goes away and our bodies stop moving and die.

after we're gone. They claim he's infinite and all powerful, but "Happy Holidays" will make him suffer?

But Fundies don't want to question faith, so it's not surprising they don't get it.

Fundamentalist christianity presents an unachievable set of ethics to live by. Just consider a few tidbits:

1.You are born into sin.
2.Your thoughts are sinful.
3.If you sin, you will go to hell.
4.Jesus removes sins, but if you stop believing or don't repent of your sins, you can fall away, and go to hell.
5.Jesus tells us to sell ALL of our possessions and follow him...but we don't...so maybe we really ARE going to hell.
6.If you don't capitalize Him, maybe that's a sin too.
7.If you fail to evanglize, that's a HUGE sin. But we don't tell our boss about Jesus, so maybe money is more important than our souls?
8.And damn. Those thoughts about my neighbor's wife...the bible says to cut my eye out..or I'll go to hell.

And the icing on the cake? Fundies argue within themselves as to what's a sin and what's not a sin...when does Jesus remove his protection, or do you keep it no matter what. And, what about those thoughts in your head? Are they coming from you?...or satan?...or jesus?...or G-d?....or, are you just plain nuts?

As you can see, the whole system is screwed up. These people are being made crazy by this imposssible religion. That's why Robertson, Falwell, etc., do so well. They cleverly bring up targets like gays or abortion doctors. Those people are clearly sinning, and Robertson points out bible verses where it's acceptable to go after these 'groups' in the political arena. Best of all, it allows people to forget how short they are falling in G-d's prying eyes.

I think it has to do with faith. Some people may be afraid that if they are not constantly reminded of God and Jesus, that they will forget.

It's not too clear. In the Ancient World, sacrifices and hymns of adulation had to be bought as a kind of bribe to the Gods. Otherwise, they got really nasty (earthquakes, losing in war, floods) or simply stopped using their Powerz to help humans. And fundie Christianity is essentially the Old Religion with a Biblical patina.

For the fundies, you have to understand that public affirmation is like drug dependence. Their 'faith' is largely superficial- they only really believe small parts of the system of beliefs, often just the ugliest stuff- and they constantly need help keeping up morale and conviction. They do believe that it's the job of the rest of the world to help them out, to provide the crutch that they 'need' in order to maintain their dependence. In fact, being 'attacked' is about the most effective way they have of 'strengthening'/recovering their beliefs. Public affirmation gets them the in-your-face imposition they can't do without.

In short, they are parasites on the Living.

others are going to do an extreme makeover. Faith means belief without proof. Fundies have to have image proof which is the ultimate absence of faith. Fundies are guardians of an image, not of faith to believe. Not putting up some display or saying some words will undermine faith. The only time that is threatening is when a belief system is present that everyone must believe as you do - fundies in action!

(It is always interesting to see Jesus with L'oreal ,Ash Blond hair.)

Yes, we Evil Atheist Conspirators are constantly trying to push Christians out of public life. And WE'RE WINNING!

Consider the evidence:

Atheists often go door-to-door on Sunday mornings asking people not to go to church with them. Atheist cults are masters at luring lonely, young, disenfranchised people into their rational cults to brainwash them with reason so that they will give their lives and all worldly possessions to the Atheist leaders.

Many Christians are afraid to admit their Christianity to their parents and friends, for fear their kin will consider them immoral Communist scum and want nothing to do with them.

During the Winter Solstice, nearly every network airs reruns (ad nauseum) of "It's A Rational Life", "Reason on 34th Street", "A Solstice Story", "The Stupidest Story Ever Told", and other Atheist favorites. Christian programming cannot be found.

American politicians often refer to America's "Agnosto-Atheist heritage" when trying to woo voters, and they very rarely campaign in or near Christian churches. A political candidate who declares himself a Christian will have far less chance of winning an election than one who flaunts his atheism.

Despite the overwhelming number of Atheists in the general population and in powerful legislative positions, when they don't get their own way, Atheists whine that this is an anti-Atheistic country.

You can't even rent a hotel room without finding books by Darwin and Carl Sagan in the bedside table.

Publicly-funded organizations such as the Boy Scouts deny membership to Christians with impunity.

Christian churches are forced to pay exorbitant taxes.

The media is totally anti-Christian. On Sunday mornings, nearly all major television channels broadcast pro-atheist shows; it is nearly impossible to find religious programming during that time period. Further, the American Atheists have their own TV channel, while Pat Robertson has been unable to obtain one for himself.

Also, most radio markets have at least one atheist radio station. There are virtually no Christian radio stations anywhere.

Most major newspapers run a special weekly section devoted to non-believers. There are no equivalent sections for religious news.

On news programs and "reality" TV shows, nobody is ever shown giving thanks to God after surviving a disaster. And on sitcoms and movies of the week, the characters often make references to how their lack of faith in God helps them get through life's troubles. Meanwhile, Christians are portrayed as pathetic, confused folks who end up converting to atheism.

Most people assume everyone else is an Atheist and are unbelievers as they are. It makes for uncomfortable social situations for Christians and other religious types.

You can't drive anywhere without seeing a Darwin fish or a "Jesus Was A Fraud" bumper sticker stuck to a car.

You can't even walk in many American cities without somebody handing you a copy of Betrand Russell's "Why I Am Not A Christian." Some atheists even force people to take these pamphlets. This practice is especially widespread in the American South, also known as "The Atheist Belt."

For decades, high school and college commencement ceremonies have included brief speeches at the beginning and end of the ceremony in which atheism is praised and Christians deemed irrational.

Christians who object to the practice, or who ask for an opening prayer instead, are regarded as cranks at best and subversives at worst.

At sporting events and NASCAR races, you can often spot people carrying signs that read "Origin Of Species, page 34".

Stolen/modified from the MUCH longer list available here, at Internet Infidels:

http://www.infidels.org/misc/humor/index.shtml

In the old days, Christians used to feel that they thrived on adversity. That their faith was never as strong or as pure as when it was subject to challenge and persecution. There's an essay by the 17th century writer, Sir Thomas Browne, in which he complains that in his own day it's too easy to be a Christian and that he wishes he'd lived back when it took real determination.

So why is it that they don't make Christians like they used to? How come the professional Christians of our time seem to crumble into tears the moment anybody says an unkind word about them or their god or tells them they can't have public displays on the courthouse lawn? You'd think that sort of thing would just make them break out all over in choruses of "I am Christian, I am invincible."

(Please understand I am not referring here to any real Christians who may be tuning in to this discussion. I assume that real Christians are mostly keeping their mouths shut these days and getting on about the serious business of all genuinely pious people in a troubled world.)

Is it possible that the fake Christians know they actually have the upper hand almost everywhere and that they feel guilty when somebody points this out? Guilt would certainly explain the shrillness of these responses -- as well as the somewhat odd forms of projection in which they tend to engage.

As a Christian who is quietly trying to live the faith, it frustrates me to no end to hear "Christians" whine about persecution; they have no clue what persecution is! I admire those brave souls that profess faith in Christ in places where Christianity isn't exactly in vogue. There are still places where it can get you killed; I'd love to see them extol the virtues of theocracy in those countries! How dare they complain about having to say "happy holidays."

Western Christians have it far too easy, and they just don't get the irony of Christianity. It is a faith based on service and humility, love and peace, and it is at its strongest when those who profess faith in Christ appear to be at their weakest. But when Christians gain a majority and its subsequent power and influence, it is too easy to rely on those strengths and neglect the true source of strength found in faith.

The right-wingers can have their majority and whine all they want to; I'll just keep quiet, live out my faith the best I know how, and trust God.

What is this about? How can those in this country's overwhelming religious majority maintain that they are victims in a fiery battle with forces of darkness? It is certainly not about actual victimization. Christmas is as pervasive as it has ever been in America, where it wasn't even declared a federal holiday until after the Civil War. What's really going on here is yet another example of a post-Election-Day winner-takes-all power grab by the "moral values" brigade. As Mr. Gibson shrewdly contrived his own crucifixion all the way to the bank, trumping up nonexistent threats to his movie to hype it, so the creation of imagined enemies and exaggerated threats to Christianity by "moral values" mongers of the right has its own secular purpose. The idea is to intimidate and marginalize anyone who objects to their efforts to impose the most conservative of Christian dogma on public policy. If you're against their views, you don't have a differing opinion — you're anti-Christian (even if you are a Christian).

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/19/arts/19rich.html?adxnnl=1&8hpib=&oref=login&adxnnlx=1103475054-K5z/PXE0llw/+5d6yKuJEA

This quote says it all:

If you're against their views, you don't have a differing opinion — you're anti-Christian

Jesus ansqwered: quietly, in a room alone, don't make a big show of it to impress everyone.
How much humility does a 6 foot flashing neon plastic nativity scene have?

But God did.

"worshipped"? The proposition is totally absurd. Here's a very old essay I like:
http://www.botany.ubc.ca/bleander/skeptic.html

"If God is real, I should think he exists regardless of whether we believe in him or not. If Jesus is divine, he will remain so even if nobody says "Merry Christmas" and nobody puts nativity scenes on courthouse lawns."



I agree...just leave Tinkerbell out of this. :)

both of their own lives and of *their* God...they feel like if they don't have that control over every little detail then everything will spiral out of control..