That's why it's called 'faith'.

Bear with me here, it's two in the morning where I am, so this might not make as much sense written out as it did when my insomniac brain was putting it together.

I am new to this forum on the DU and found it mostly by accident. Anyway, I have been wandering around reading posts here and there and a few things caught my eye.
Someone wrote "belief in God is not rational". Well, no, of course it isn't. It isn't supposed to be. It seems to me that's where a lot of both Christians and atheists get screwed up. One side is trying to prove God does exist and the other side is trying to prove that he doesn't. The thing is, it is unknowable. That's why it requires faith. To me, Christians that allow themselves to be sucked into the debate of the 'reality' of their religion have missed the boat. It reminds me of a discussion I once had with a bitter divorcee. I commented that I knew my husband would not cheat on me. Having just come out of that situation, she was not so sanguine. She insisted that I could not KNOW this. With every breath I took, I felt it to be true (and still do, BTW.) She said that he may already have cheated on me. In fact, that statistically, he most likely had. I still could not agree with her. I had no proof to back up my faith other than years of intimate knowledge of my husband's personality. She had no proof that he had, but her experience led her to believe it was most likely so. I relied then and rely still, on my faith in my husband. I could spend a great deal of my time and energy trying to prove to myself that he was NOT cheating on me, but that wouldn't be much of a marriage, would it? I am not real sure the relationship would stand the strain. So I go forward and live my life contentedly and easily based on my faith. Is my belief in my husband, without proof, 'rational'? I am not sure.

Either you believe, or you don't. Life is hard as hell either way. If it helps me to get through the day to believe that my husband is not out screwing some other woman every time he leaves the house, well, that's my business. It may not be rational or statistically supported, but it works for me.

I would like to add that I do not have a similar faith in God. But if it helps someone else get through the day to believe that Christ died on a cross for their sins, if it makes it easier for them to face the world believing that God has their back...whatever. I don't feel that way. But I don't have to. Just as their faith does not impact me, my lack of faith does not impact them.

A lot is being made these days, on both sides, about how faith or the lack thereof is ruining the world. I don't really think that might be the case. I see what is being done in the name of religion. But, in the big wide scheme of things, what is going on today is mild in comparison with history. It makes sense to me that there has always been and always will be a segment of society which does not believe in God. It makes sense to me that, while actual numbers may fluctuate, the majority of people will always choose to believe in a God. It equally makes sense that religious fervor in politics (at least in this country) cycles in and out. It is like anything else. Some years it is more fashionable than others.

I guess I cannot see either side's desire to shove what they think onto the other guy. It just doesn't work that way. I cannot make someone else an atheist and they cannot MAKE me a Christian. And who says which side is right and what the hell does it matter anyway??

...than having faith in the unknowable??

I don't think so.

Everybody needs something to make themselves feel better than others and it looks like you have found yours. Good for you.

seriously in question, I am not sure that any explanation of mine would not be a waste of time.


Your perception of other people's beliefs is unimportant to me. THAT is YOUR belief. I do not care what you believe. It does not impact me. That was the whole point of what I wrote. The fact that it went entirely over your head seems ridiculous to me.

See?? Everybody has to find a way to feel superior to others.

thread was nice and polite and just speaking truth as they know it.

It was a nice change of pace from Xmas's "Is there any evidence Jesus lived- or is it all fantasy" motif that has been running for the last few weeks.

I'm afraid actual discussion of religious topics is rare in this forum due to the hijacking of threads into belief versus atheism or some claimed blend of agnostic/atheist thought.

But there are religious groups that donors can get to - including a very active atheist group.

I think you will find DU a pleasent diversion for those cleaning the house in the am moments!

:-)

:toast:

:-)

"It was a nice change of pace from Xmas's "Is there any evidence Jesus lived- or is it all fantasy" motif that has been running for the last few weeks."

Tue Dec-13-05 11:07 AM - that's when the "Jesus - real or fantasy?" thread was begun.

YESTERDAY.

And you wonder why, with posts like this and your repeated plagiarizing, people think you're intellectually dishonest.

The atheist group is not a religious group, papau.

Do you have a learning disability?

Why on earth would an adult continue to state an untruth when he knows it to be not only false, but personally insulting to the people he's referring to?

And this is AFTER you've been asked to stop by every DU atheist you've offended, including a mod, if I'm not mistaken.


What's it going to take for you to show us the same respect you've been given?


I seem to recall several atheists being banned because it was said they were incapable of showing proper respect to believers.

So much for karma.

Too bad what goes around doesn't come around.

died for the ignorance, cruelty, oppression, and need for political control of local authorities of the Roman Empire. Hard to predict his fate in similar circumstances in earlier decades, but by the time Republic had become Empire, his chances were dim at best. The apostles were armed in the Garden when the soldiers came to arrest them. Looks to me like an armed insurgency and a damned appropriate response to brutal authority.

I believe Jesus died trying to inspire a revolution against tryanny and I honor his sacrifice in that endeavor. But it's not unique to history and in my opinion does not and should not involve transhuman acts. It's enough as it is.

If you have time this holiday season, give a reading to The Gospel of Thomas.

I'll do that.

contrary. Believing even when belief is challenged.

Those who show no doubt have no faith, they have conviction. No fine line here.

The only thing I can possibly know is that I can't possibly know. What anyone else believes is okay by me because I know that whatever cosmic construct I have is wrong. As long as it makes me feel okay with the universe as I see it it's okay. As long as someone else's construct makes them feel okay that's fine too.

However, if a construct allows someone to treat others unfairly or, say, lob missiles at a neighbor then perhaps they should evaluate their view of the cosmos.

The real problem comes when ya' start thinkin' ya' really do know . . .

that in most cases, the construct is most likely second to some other desire the missile throwing neighbor may have. That they want to throw the missile and the contsruct is a handy, less ugly (to them) excuse. If they didn't use the construct, they would use some other reason.

More plainly, 'religion' is often the excuse, not the reason.

"Those who show no doubt have no faith, they have conviction."...I like that, BTW. Makes you think.

The real problem comes when ya' start thinkin' ya' really do know . . .

In case you missed it, most of us could care less what deities others believe in or why.

We have a problem with the ones who use their "faith" as a club as well as those who are trying to shove OUR faces in their beliefs by hijacking our government and others who constantly apologize for them.

I'll be damned if I'm going to let someone tell me I need to get over it when it comes to the discrimination and hatred atheists face daily in this society.

And if someone's faith is so fragile that they can't accept the fact that some of us think the big white guy in the sky is a myth, they need to get over it.

I am not calling for passivity. I am trying to say that BOTH sides need to attempt to see religion for what it is...something actually very personal that cannot be dictated, proven or disproven. That goes as much for the atheist trying to force the Christian to see that his faith is unsustainable as it does for Bill O'Reilly (who so evidently has no faith of any kind the irony is ludicrous) trying to invent a 'War on Christmas' so that he can have something to fight with the godless liberals about.

It goes both ways. It is as obnoxious to try to tell a Christian that their belief system is 'ridiculous' as it is for Christians* to try to force the rest of us to think their way.

(*some Christians, not all.)

MOST of us don't throw down.

We simply pick it up and give as good as we get.

Militant atheism is a reaction to and would not exist if not for militant theism.


I wouldn't start a conversation with a theist by claiming their faith is ridiculous, but I'm sure the hell not going to let it go when they proclaim that they are morally superior, malign atheists or try to equate their deity with science.

Most of us just want respect.

I think that's the least the believers can do considering their churches spent the last couple thousand years trying to assimilate or destroy us.

I don't approve of or advocate unprovoked obnoxiousness from atheists, but I sure the hell can understand where it's coming from.

We uppity atheists just don't know when to shut up and enjoy our view from the back of the bus.

This is the reason why we are usually the first ones to get thrown off the fucking thing.

You know, so that we won't cost our side the election over silly little things like the Constitution.

But then I am cleaning my refrigerator at 3:39 am, so my thought processes could be in question.

I do remember being shocked recently when a friend I had known for years said to me that people who lacked religion, lacked morals. I tend to be rather rabid about ethics and morals and we are considered to be some of the strictest parents amongst my kids's set of friends. I reminded her that I was an atheist and she was startled for a moment. Seems that I apparently act 'so Christian' for somebody who is godless and never mentions the subject. When I gently suggested that possibly morality and 'Christian' ethics were not exclusively Christian, she just looked uncomfortable.

So I do know where you are coming from.

I grew up in New England and nobody discussed religion.
I found talking about the subject very uncomfortable because of this.
As a matter of fact, I avoided coming out of the atheist closet because I hated the stigma and didn't want to have to defend myself.

The reason I'm so strident now is because of the reichwing assault on secular government.
We have to speak up or else we'll end up as permanent second class citizen in a pseudo theocracy.

I am debating whether or not to let the freeper fundies at work know that I am NOT a christian but one of those godless commies who are responsible for the moral downfall of this great "christian" nation.
My instinct tells me this would be a bad career move but my temper may end up getting the best of me.

Anyway, I'm glad to have you in our camp. You seem to have given this quite a bit of thought and we need all the help we can get if we want to change how we are viewed by our fellow citizens.

This forum is great for debates but most DU believers accept us as we are and realize that it's wrong to let the fundies vilify atheism.

We are all on the same side when it comes to getting our country out of the hands of the zealots.

(snip)
Seems that I apparently act 'so Christian' for somebody who is godless and never mentions the subject.
(snip)

:woohoo:

nice to see you around again :hi:

And I agree that it is the "club" that we object to. Like the "war on christmas." Come on, Christians are the vast majority in this country. There is no war.

It's good to be back.

When it comes to the obnoxious presence of uppity atheists, believers have no one to blame but their own militant factions.

They never heard a peep out of me when I lived in liberal New England.

Funny story; I don't recall my then Governor Dean invoking his personal deity every time he commented on an issue or alienating ANY members of society.

Then, one day, I woke up in the land of Oz and everything was different...


It's all fun and games until someone pushes the atheists too far.

That was a pleasure to read.

You've said what I've wanted to post for about 6 months, but I couldn't think of the right terms. Your post was a pleasure to read, and here's hoping that we can all listen to it.

If you step back from most arguments you can see they are mostly about what words mean.

Faith, proof, belief, and theory are words that are typically at the center of discussions around here. Sometimes I look up words in the dictionary, which is not proscriptive, but a journal of how words are commonly used. And the words cited all have several definitions. And usually at the base of an argument is the use of the same sound for different ideas.

Your faith in your husband, an enviously good thing, didn't just spring from the ether. You know the guy. Commitments have been made. There is a history. There is trust. I think a religious faith is a different thing, though some might see it as the same. (I think god is a projection of an idealized self.)

In any case I'm in tune with your thoughts. I accept the fact that people will have beliefs and like DNA or fingerprints, I think it impossible that two people have identical beliefs, so no one owns the truth. That's just the way it is.

--IMM

I understand your desire to reach the middle ground in the religious debate. I too, think that my lack of religion in no way affects those with religion. Hence, I fail to understand why fundamentalists take such umbrage with atheists, a fantasy attack on their world view, manufactured by pundits fueled by political gain.

I would add that atheist do not seek to prove that god does not exist. An impossible task, I cannot prove that there are worlds in distant solar systems made of cream cheese anymore than I can prove that a supernatural realm exists which contains a god which created the universe and humankind. Atheists function based on science and both aforementioned propositions appear to be highly unlikely.

Live and let live. I would agree, but the other side does not subscribe to this point of view. A culture war is at hand, haven't you heard, this is a Christan nation. Evolution is debated, abortion is a sin, companies are under pressure to bow to christian ideals or face boycott, and now the president is a fundamentalist with two pro religion supreme court nominees. Sorry, if you are an atheist, a 'live and let live' philosophy is not what you will be getting in christian America.

Atheists do not debate in this forum with the intent to convert. I don't give a hoot in hell if a single christian looses faith, I post because of the self righteous nonsense spouted by believers. I post to offer a wake up call to all religious folks, not everyone believes the same way, there is no absolute, just because you believe in jesus does not mean you can force the belief on the rest of us. Yes, I agree, believe what you like, but if you like to not believe, you must take a stand before the religious juggernaut takes complete control of the U.S. political system. It is 1932, hey who are these guys in brown shirts, why are they do damn angry. Live and let live can be a dangerous proposition.