Not in my name: Tookie's sins are also "Ours".

This is what Christianity is supposed to be about: Each person should recognize what little part of the Responsibility for All Others (including Tookie) each of us bears in our actions, ((even if it is only a can of beans for the Poor now and then - and how much more guilt, then, in the small sins so many ignore in themselves, so easily corrected with so little pain, but ultimately all of the individual little corrections ("cans of beans") could add up to a better opportunity for a more Innocent and happy and functional Stanley Williams (and Many Others), but what we get instead is that the refusal to live the New Testament and give to Others out of real Charity, multiplied by millions of people over Time, results in Tookie Williams the Murderer and Invasions - Hideous Death Glorifying Media - Capital Punishment - All Societies' Meta-Abortions).

Is this not what "Us" MUST mean? That "we" affect one another? If that's not true, then there must not be any "Us".

......................................

If the Invasion of Iraq (Killing People for what they "might" do) wasn't enough Proof - Tookie's Life and Death certainly proove that Pro-Life is Dead.

.............

God have mercy on Tookie and Bless his Family and Friends with real Peace, so they can feel our sadness at their and our loss.

Phillip Berrigan told me about the significance of Jesus being executed between two "criminals." I thought a lot about that last night.

"Justice" is so Flawed!

I thought of Tookie when I went out on an errand and heard "Christmas" songs. I will try to think of a real Christmas Tree for Tookie (and all of our sad dead souls) today when I feel the pain of this again.

for their crimes as well.

They're just as much victims of circumstance as Tookie.

That's why I have to resist them as much as I do.

otherwise, we'd all just 'let it be'-

Clearly we who post here, are better off than the majority of the people of this world-
We not only have shelter, and food, we have the ability to use the internet, and to read and write well enough to communicate.

That we CARE about others, regardless of where they are, what they do, have done, or will do, is why many of us become as frustrated and furious when oppression, injustice, and ...bad things... are done to others, ESPECIALLY with the 'banner' of 'america' or what ever 'group-label' you put on it-

Here is the same notion of our interconnectedness spoken not from 'a christian' or a 'religious' or even an 'american' perspective- but from a man who 'gets it'.

"If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? (Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn)"

We are ALL victims of circumstance Joe- some have more difficult circumstances, some have easier ones (depending on perspective) but the realization that when we work to live together to lessen each others burdens and towards peace, we improve all the world.

"Our hatred becomes us."-

as I did my morning spiritual practices. But I felt I didn't have to pray for him now-he is beyond pain, and in Unity.

That's where you lost me on your argument.

The New Testament, what Jesus was trying to teach us and why he wouldn't shut up.

Christianity is irrelevent to me.

I always learn when I read the teachings of all religions.

I happen to be Christian but to me...

"Thy Shall Not kill" is universal.

It just makes common sense.

:shrug:

go figure.

And was wrongly put to death by the stae.

Check.

Do you know how pathetic it is when someone tries to put words in the mouths of others? You don't have a better case than a phoney image of what I'm saying that you then demonstrate your assumed "brilliance" in "destroying"? :rofl" :rofl: :rofl:

What the hell it is you're trying to say in the title post.

if you can't hear it i'll say it another way.

If you can sleep at night with food in your cupboard and a full belly, while others have no home, and no food angrily break in and rob a store for food- your aloof, self-oriented inaction towards another fellow living being, has helped bring this person to do what they have done-

Mayor LaGuardia is said to have demonstrated this very poignantly-

One night in January 1935 the mayor of New York, Fiorlla LaGuardia, turned up at one of the courts in a poorer area of the city. It was during the Great Depression and a woman was brought before the judge for stealing a loaf of bread. LaGuardia dismissed the judge and sat as judge in the case himself. He listened to all the evidence. At the end of the case he found the woman guilty and he said: a fine of $10 or 10 days in jail. As he was saying those words he was reaching into his own pocket to pay the fine. He then said this: ‘I am fining everyone in this courtroom 50cents for living in a town where a woman has to steal a loaf of bread to feed her grandchildren. The total came to $47.50, the last 50cents coming from the pocket of the baker who had brought the case in the first place.

Gotcha.

about blame- any more than it's about group anything-
It is about each one of us a individuals, LIVING in community. When someone in our community suffers, we ALL suffer in reality. When someone has call to rejoice, we all rejoice-

We watched the earthquate in Pakistan, and felt sorrow, and grief for a people most of us never knew-
We are part of one another Loonman-

NO MAN is an Island-
each one of us set ripples on the water that have the capacity to either rock a baby near the shore to sleep, or create waves large enough to drown many.
What YOU chose to do with your life, matters. To more than just you. And your well-being SHOULD matter to me too-

Living in COMMUNITY- living as equal beings on this planet out in space- It begins with YOU- but it shouldn't end there- And while i cannot control you,- nor do i want to- my actions effect more than just me, and if i chose to live 'for myself' alone- i may find myself surrounded by folks who are doing exactly the same thing- and that isn't community it is chaos.

Control YOURSELF- as best you can. And live true to what you believe- Don't live in 'RE-action' to others, but act as you believe a responsible, compassionate, 'good' person should-

"to thine own self be true" as the Bard said.

"And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.”

I was feeling pretty weighed down yesterday, so I didn't feel like dickering with people who quite possibly don't want to understand.

Your posts helped me too.

thank you- your post gave me reason to remember, what is truly important, and that our own individual role in this world is not lessened, because the group mentality says 'shut up' or 'you don't speak for me' but rather, to speak and live according to what we know is 'right' regardless of how insignifigant, or hopless that may seem -.

I'm sorry you were feeling low- i understand that all too well- we all need each other to lean on in times such as this-

Peace and comfort to you- and to everyone.
blu

One blind step at a time, that's what we are called to with no promise of anything.

Christ's last words were, "Lord, why have you forsaken me?" I'm trying not to ignore what that means.

Thanks patrice and Bluerthanblue for your insight.

Thank you. :hug:

We each impact the environment of our world by choosing our role in it. Do we choose to contribute towards a better world or to take from and destroy it? Ultimately, that choice does impact ALL of us.

gang was driven by hunger to rob stores for "food." If so, you really should read up on Tookie Williams' murders.

"while others have no home, and no food angrily break in and rob a store for food."

But if you want some responsibility for Tookie you go right ahead.

And Christianity is only the most widely known system of thought that says this. Many have come to the same conclusions without ay religion. The truth exists independently from you and the rest of us. Don't confuse language itself for what it is supposed to represent, i.e. what it (language) only points at - reality.

Whatever truth there is in what I was trying to describe exists on its own.

What business is it of yours?

pretty deep in the "pile", when I go back that far, I don't usually Reply, because it would not be read.

were other posts made earlier than mine today that brought it up to the top of the "pile".

By virtue of the Golden Rule (remember that one Joe?) you define the terms of our relationship, Criticism, but the level of some criticism is so "low" that it does not interest me, hence I reject the "interaction" you propose.

as I read a few of the responses, of an old saying:

"Knowing ignorance is strength; Ignoring knowledge is sickness."
-- Lao Tse

All people have stumbling blocks to understanding the truth. Everyone does. But there are paths to understanding. For many people, those paths are outlined by the teachings of the prophet Jesus. Some will say, "But I do not believe in Christianity." That is fine, but the not believing should not be a stumbling block that prevents one from recognizing the wisdom in Jesus's teachings. And others will say, "I do not believe Jesus existed." That, too, is fine. But it should not be a stumbling block that prevents understanding.

Many years ago, in the Greek world, there was an African slave who, like Jesus, taught truths in stories, of fables. History records the man's identity as Aesop, indicating he was from Egypt. The wisdom of his fables holds true, no matter if one believes Aesop was real or not. And only a fool would hear his stories, mistake them for factual events, and conclude, "That's stupid -- I know that fox don't eat grapes!"

-- TahitiNut (2005)

Thank you H20man-

We all will miss out on so much truth when we close our hearts and minds, using the excuse, or blinded by our inability to listen to the message, not judge the messenger.

(i count myself among them, far too often)

people limit themselves with such statements as "religious comments in political discussions disgust me." That leaves no room for Martin Luther King, Jr., Malcolm X, Gandhi, Robert Kennedy Sr (and Jr),and so many others. A mind closed to their contributions is a closed mind, indeed. And closed minds, like closed rooms, tend to be stuffy.

my adversaries in this world, have taught me some of the most profound lessons i've ever learned.
Because they were the ones who rattled my cage, and yanked my chain. Truth can be found in the most unlikley places- and limiting ourselves is indeed sad.

:eyes:

There is no logic or moral/ethical basis for the DP. Nothing is solved or remedied except the weak emotion of revenge and most don't even find that relief from another's execution.

In this case, the man was making a substantive and positive difference on our society.

Where does forgiveness and the belief in "free will" and the ability to change play out? Or, is that just fancy and fiction these days?

Who are we? What are we? What do we stand for?

I don't know, anymore. Gut negative emotion seems to be more prevalent than logic or morals/ethics.

shut-the-F-Up about Christianity, and quit trying to change everyone into "Christians", since they obviously do not undestand the New Testament.

......................

Hare Krsna! Hare Rama!

"No, that is NOT two cats eating a pancake in the inkblot! It's a fountain spewing goldfish!"

"You obviously are not a true Inkblot Viewer or you'd know it's the cats and the pancake!"

"Heretic!"

How many people think of a "can of beans" as a religious issue? Almost none. And, anyway, religion isn't the standard by which anything is evaluated. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Truth.

,...associated with belief in a person's ability to change, acting on logic rather than gut emotion, forgiving those who turn around and demonstrably make a positive impact upon our society, commitment to human rights and respect for human life, advancing understanding, contributing towards a better community/society/world, preventing desperate circumstances that lead to desperate behavior, etc.

I thought these were common values, morals and ethics we ALL pursued beyond religion. But, we seem to be moving in the opposite direction of these shared stands.

It's,...disconcerting, disturbing to witness such a trend. Maybe, it's been happening all along and I just failed to acknowledge it.

I dunno' :shrug:

last night at my sons "Holiday Tea" i got into discussion about the state of the world (small -talk)
With a friend from the same town as us. She was talking to me about how her oldest had gotten detention for throwing a bagel back at a child who'd thrown one at him (only he was punished)-
"I have no remorse" he told the principal- (not the same school her younger ones attend)
She was dumbfounded- "Zach! where in the world would you get that attitude!!!- haven't you learned anything over all these years?"-- I said, " maybe from the president- and the vp"- bush had just said even though there weren't WMD's in Iraq, and given everything he knows now, he'd still do exactly the same thing- And Cheney's "go f- yourself" on the senate floor, to which when questioned if he regreted his words said "no, I actually felt good after having said it" influences EVERYONE of us on some level- even subconsiously-
This world has become more and more arrogant, rude, selfish, crude, and "proud" of our callousness and irresponsibility over the last 10 yrs from my perspective.

The cry of what a bad example Clinton's sexual issues, and lying about it, ring hollow to me. I distinctly remember people rejecting his apology- and owning the 'blame'- and then having the courage to not skulk off, but continue on, humiliated, humbled, and shamed- right through to the end of his term.

If my sons fall victim to either of these two 'leaders' influence, i'd far prefer Clintons actions- because, i believe he really fessed up- and he understood the harm that he'd done and clearly understood that he had hurt people who least deserved hurting (his wife and daughter in particular). bush, hasn't 'owned' nor do i believe he truly understands, the harm he not only has done, but continues to do- and for that, i pity him- and carry a share of the shame.

We are all diminished- we are all influenced- we cannot simply 'turn our heads'-

Maybe it has always been this way- but it is amplified, and broadcast with a kind of 'pride' that disturbs, puzzles, and saddens me too.

sorry for the verbosity.

You take the time to see all sides of an issue.

You do not diminish anyone.

Refreshing.

but that there is pride in it and satisfaction. There are many perfumed Pharisees riding by the wounded in the ditch.

Awareness makes self-rule possible.

...is when it is used to prop up a popular political point.

:cry: Poor babies.

I don't even know what that means. Respect? How is the OP disrespectful, since that is what you respond to. Do you think Jesus would be a supporter of the death penalty? Of killing Tookie specifically? I don't see one post in here that is disrespectful to Christianity. Discussion about and disagreement with is not disrespect.

I'm a Christian and I don't a clue what you are trying to say in the first paragraph.

I have no idea what the OP is referring to in Christian doctrine.