The Fall & Cain and Abel - from another angle

There are 6 more paragraphs at the link as introduction.

Ishmael....I liked that explaination.Too bad it doesn't look like we'll be stoping the airplane landing and letting ourselves off anytime soon. It will probably crash into the ground before we admit we're wrong.

to me from a scientific viewpoint. I know of no evidence to suggest that the people who first began practicing agriculture in Mesopotamia were Caucasions. I also don't know of any evidence that pre-agricultural peoples lack a sense of "good and evil" or "right and wrong", other than that provided by culturally biased missionaries. I would like to see some more contemporary anthropological studies to back up that claim before I gave it any credence (I've never encountered that claim before in any of the reading that I've done). Finally, many perhaps most, of the Aboriginal peoples of the New World that got wiped out by the Europeans were agriculturalists too, just less technologically advanced than the Europeans. Also, Abel is specifically described as a pastoralist, or a practitioner of animal husbandry, not a hunter/gatherer. Agriculture and animal husbandry originated at about the same time in about the same place.

I personally doubt that the myths told in Genesis refer to any actual pre-historic events at all.

If you want to read an interesting book about the origin and spread of plant and animal domestication, and their subsequent spread along with other technological and cultural innovations, I would reccomend the book Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393038912/102-4626097-1300913?v=glance&n=283155

I apologize if I'm being a wet blanket.

I'm most interested in reasoned dissent.

I have a copy of Guns, Germs and Steel, and saw the PBS special a while back. From what I know, their work doesn't contradict.
Lemme digest what you've said for a while. :)

edit: and with DQs reply: "I've made the point again and again that the emergence of our world-dominating culture was not dependent on one factor alone, the development of totalitarian agriculture. What made (and makes) us different are the beliefs that there is one right way for people to live (our way) and that everyone in the world must be made to live that way. No other agricultural society (and I cite many in which agriculture developed independently) was driven by these beliefs.

"I personally doubt that the myths told in Genesis refer to any actual pre-historic events at all."

I suppose we'd need to settle that one first, because this theory is specifically talking about a better way to interpret the story of The Fall. It's geared toward people who have grown up hearing confused and illogical explanations of it. The theory also assumes that some historical references to reality can be found in the Old Testament. Sadly, there aren't many competing texts from that place and time, but I think it's reasonable to believe that references to reality are included in the Old Testament. I don't believe that all of it was fashioned from whole cloth.

However, even if you believe The Old Testament to be total fiction, what do you think of Quinn's interpretation of it as compared to others you've heard?

"I know of no evidence to suggest that the people who first began practicing agriculture in Mesopotamia were Caucasians."

That brings us to the Old Testament again. First, I think you'd have to you agree that Semites wrote The Old Testament. According to the authors of The Old Testament, "the mark of Cain" is fair or maggot colored skin. Isn't this supported by Science, in that we are fairly certain of the migration patterns and time-periods of various races including the southward path of those from the Caucus mountains? Right in line with Jared Diamond, as far as I know.
Furthermore, agriculture isn't specified as the problem, the attitude of those practicing agriculture in a certain way is the problem.
*Incidentally, the central character in Quinn's The Story of B is named Jared, perhaps in homage.

"Also, Abel is specifically described as a pastoralist, or a practitioner of animal husbandry, not a hunter/gatherer."

Abel isn't described as simply a hunter/gatherer in the OP.
Also, it wouldn't change the meaning of the story if Abel planted seeds and practiced agriculture.
It's only important to recognize that "those from the north" were practicing expansive and murderous totalitarian agriculture, and that they did so because they were acting as though God had their back.

Culture clash.

"I also don't know of any evidence that pre-agricultural peoples lack a sense of "good and evil" or "right and wrong", other than that provided by culturally biased missionaries. I would like to see some more contemporary anthropological studies to back up that claim before I gave it any credence (I've never encountered that claim before in any of the reading that I've done). "

I think you're misunderstanding where Quinn was coming from. (easy to do when reading a 10 paragraph summary of nearly an entire book.) I italicized the key part of your quote to identify the point. Missionaries aren't the arbiters of right and wrong, yet they behave as if they are, to the death of glorious and successful diversity. The cultural bias of those who believe they know the universally One Right Way To Live is profound, and it betrays ignorance, not wisdom or piety.
Everything I'm aware of about aboriginal peoples indicates that they live the way they do because it works.
Their lifestyle has been tested for thousands of generations, and I imagine hearty laughter and rolling eyes at some of the invented morality that missionaries have "enlightened" the "savages" with over the bloody centuries. There is a remarkable lack of prophets in indigenous cultures because - drum roll... They already know how to live. As a plus, they don't care if everyone else lives the same way they do or not. Under what circumstances would it even remotely concern them?


"Finally, many perhaps most, of the Aboriginal peoples of the New World that got wiped out by the Europeans were agriculturalists too, just less technologically advanced than the Europeans. "

As shown in the quote from my previous reply, Quinn is well aware of this. His insight is that our culture is the only one to practice something he calls "totalitarian agriculture". Totalitarian agriculture has behind it the vision of one culture that the world was made for man, and man was made to conquer and rule it. Expand, multiply, convert or kill the heathens and savages, God puts the shine on our swords etc... Are you aware of any aboriginal cultures who believe "the world was made for man, and man was made to conquer and rule it"? I don't.


"Agriculture and animal husbandry originated at about the same time in about the same place."

I thought agriculture developed independently in at least 7 places?

Makes a lot of sense.

I was hoping to hear more Jewish and Christian opinions - giving it a shot.

Christian opinion for those who have read a few contemporary anthropological studies and think they have found truth, as they miss the forest for the trees..