Is, God gave his only begotten son so mankind would not perish, but

have ever lasting life just spin? IMO yes. Do the faithful believe that Jesus was give up? Or do they believe he still exists? Or perhaps Jesus never existed.

Are you suggesting God is a Republican?

And death was part of that experience... or so I was taught...

I believed fully until the age of 16 or 17, then I found that those in my life who professed to be Christians (Meaning Christ-like) were horribly hypocritical and full of hate and bigotry. These same people told me that their lives were a witness to the world that Christ is Lord... They proved nothing to me except that people can lie.

So, I remain Agnostic. I want to believe there is a powerful being who is better and wiser than we are. I'll wait until he comes "again", if that is what will happen. The Bible says "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" and it also says that in order to go to heaven, you must believe that Christ is Lord. I think if everyone confesses he is Lord, then everyone will get in.


:shrug:


There is really only one rule I think we as humans should follow... don't be mean. If you are not mean, then you cannot do anything that is against The Ten Commandments anyway.

So, don't be mean. I'm not mean. My ass is covered:)

Yeah I was born and raised in a church and so I saw tons of hypocrisy and thats basically holding Christianity back its the attitude that were too good for these people or that were better than them when in fact all sin is sin in the eyes of God obviously some have more ramifications here on earth but in the end its all sin. I think its crucial to remember that before I wanna judge somebody or feel that I'm better than them I remember that God has loved me and he loves them the exact same amount. Even if they're a child molester or a murderer.

IMHO, if Christ were to come back, he would be put back on that cross by the so called "Christians" so fast your head would spin. They are quite happy to threaten you with his return, but if He did come back, they would be the first who would have to answer for their crimes against Him.:sarcasm: :rant:

Unlike Xeric, its not other people who cause my non belief in god. I don't even hate fundies enough to say, "They caused me to reject christinanity"

I just absolutely think the whole Jesus as a supernatural being is ridiculous. I mean...how does it add up? How does it make sense even to christians? Why would an all powerful god have to sacrafice a person in order to insure forgivenes...the very idea is stupid. And I can't ever get anybody to really explain it to me..usually my conversation go like this.

Evoman: So I don't get it....why would god have to sacrifice jesus?

Theist: Jesus took his our sins onto himself and then died for us.

Evoman: Okay..but, why was that necessary. I mean, the concept of forgiveness does not need a sacrafice. God could have chosen to forgive each of us after we asked...why is the whole jesus thing even necessary

Theist: Dont you understand...god loved us so much he gave us his only begotten son.

Evoman: Okay...but, I mean, aren't we all supposed to be his children. I still don't get why god couldn't forgive us without jesus. I can see why god would send jesus to teach people, but as a sacrafice?

Theist: But jesus took our sin upon his body.

Evoman: But c'mon...taking sins upon himself...its only symbolic. Wasn't god's reason symbolic, but unecessary?

Thesit: But...but...God sent only son....God...Jesus.....take sins upon body...love....begotten...*head explodes*

Someone give me an answer here!
Theist:

I have heard no satisfactory explanation. When I got into the questioning business the whole religious dogma of any and all supernatural explanations fell apart for me.

You said that you found it hard to believe that GOD had send jesus to be crucified for the human race and that he could have just snapped his fingers and forgiven us but Jesus was sent for many reasons, to set an example on how to live, to fulfill old testament prophecy, to be a perfect sacrifice for humanity. Thats why the immaculate conception was so necessary Jesus had to be the product of a miracle birth as humanity has sin written into the very core of our existence meaning to the very most basic nitrogenous base in our DNA we have original sin ingrained in us. jesus being not the product of human conception meant that the sperm of a man never entered the egg of a woman and so the sin was never manifested in him, he was perfect. Now God also sent Jesus with the intent to draw a line; the new testament says on numerous occasions now that if you are followers of Christ put down your old ways. To become a true christian: not somebody whose parents dragged them to church all their lives, or went to catholic school, or had mildly religious parents for that matter, we have to make that choice ourselves. Jesus was sent for free and all of man's sins past future and present were laid on him but its still our choice if were going to turn to him.

Thats why the immaculate conception was so necessary

First off, you've got your dogma confused. Mary's conception is referred to as the Immaculate Conception, not Jesus'.

Secondly, WHY? You are dodging the question. WHY are these crazy rules necessary? Why can't your god just forgive? Why are all these rules and symbols and logistics necessary? Does god have rules that he has to follow? If so, who made them? And shouldn't we worship the thing that made rules for god?

humanity has sin written into the very core of our existence

Which means that we were created with sin. Who was it that created us again?

in our DNA

Oh, can you point to the genes that code for "sin"?

" You said that you found it hard to believe that GOD had send jesus to be crucified for the human race and that he could have just snapped his fingers and forgiven us but Jesus was sent for many reasons, to set an example on how to live, to fulfill old testament prophecy, to be a perfect sacrifice for humanity. "

Gah...this is what I'm talking about. Setting an example on how to live...that makes some sort of logical sense. But even at that point, you gotta ask...if Jesus was made perfect, then how can we possible follow his example? The game is stacked...if Jesus had been just a man, AND he lived the perfect "sin-less" life, than he is something we can aspire to. But its like giving us a a bunch of dirty, ripped clothes and asking us to look as good as a runway model...its impossible.

More to the point, however, about my original question. WHY DOES GOD NEED A SACRIFICE, MUCH LESS A PERFECT ONE. Thats the part that makes NO SENSE. You just repeated basically what I said in my earlier post...you just repeated the whole "Jesus died for us" without telling me what possible reason there is for it like the theist did in my dialogue. IS GOD UNABLE, DESPITE HIS OMNIPOTENCE, TO FORGIVE US WITHOUT SOMEONE BEATING THE SHIT OUT OF JESUS? MOREOVER, WHAT DOES HIS DEATH PROVE BESIDES THE INTOLERANCE OF PRIMITIVE TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO WHEN PRESENTED WITH A BETTER WAY OF LIVING? NOTHING!

"To become a true christian: not somebody whose parents dragged them to church all their lives, or went to catholic school, or had mildly religious parents for that matter, we have to make that choice ourselves"

Lol...but the only reason most people make that choice is because of the reasons you stated. You are christian because most of our society is christian. You would probably be muslim if you lived in the middle east. Or a jew if you were born and raised in Israel. Or buddhist if you were raised in certain parts of Asia.

First of all, the concept that humans need to be saved is ridiculous to me. Humanity at large, globally, was doing just fine for 3 million years. Since the notion of "salvation"? Not so good. Humanity at large has been under constant threat from salvationist culture. How many indigenous cultures have been wiped off the face of our planet because of religious imperialism?
I can't imagine how people believe that some real or metaphysical or cosmic mechanism was triggered by 1 human being's life. (assuming he existed) It seems like such a myopic view of reality to me.

edit: I want to make it clear that I'm not picking on Jesus. I feel the same way about all prophets who claim special ties to some divinity which revealed wisdom about the 1 Right Way People Should Live. That is bigotry writ large. Diversity is where it's at. ;)

"Salvationist," my ass.

:eyes:

only here, yes I believe God sent Jesus down to put a human "spin" on the nature of the infinite. We couldn't get our minds around the Great I AM, who made us in his likeness, but for all we know he might be a double helix.

Then when JC tried to explain the unexlainable, and he disappointed the zealots by not being a great general, they got pissed and whacked him. Final explanation of his humanity: he died. Eventual explanation of his divinity: he didn't STAY dead.

Now, I don't want to start a flame war here because this is my personal belief and I'm too old to change it and have no problem with folks thinking I'm a loon, a believer in fairies, whatever. I'm developing a much thicker skin about that, thank you. It's MY story and I'm sticking to it. I don't mind hearing why others don't share my belief, but just don't dis me. I'm entitled to believe whatever I want, and so are you. I don't evangelize, I mind my own business. But that's my sincerest, heartfelt belief. Makes no sense...but it doesn't have to. It isn't about sense or the senses. It is about my gut feelings, my certainty that for ME this happened to give me understanding and peace. It's about the voices I hear (the meds didn't help) and the dialogue I am engaged in every waking minute.

Maybe it didn't happen for everybody. Maybe it wasn't supposed to. And that's ok.