There are Christians who have never heard of Jesus Christ? Whaaa?

So I'm getting my morning coffee and talking to the barista at the coffee shop about religion. She brings up that Christians are persecuted in this country and when the retaliate they're singled out for being hateful and prejudiced. I, between trying not to laugh and putting cream in my coffee, say that according to census data 80% of the country identifies themselves as being Christians.

Here's the bombshell: She says that a lot of people who identify themselves as being Christian are not actually Christians.

Naturally, being a curious individual, I ask her to explain what she means. She says that a lot of people she had met don't know what it means to be a Christian. So then we talk a bit about the necessary and sufficient conditions for claiming to be a Christian (I take it believing that Jesus Christ was the son of God, died for our sins, and was resurrected are the necessary and sufficient conditions for being a Christian). I say that just because all Christians are not theological scholars doesn't mean they're not Christians.

Here's the bigger bombshell: She replied by saying that a lot the people in question have never really heard of Jesus Christ. She says that a lot of people just identify with the most pervasive religion of the land. Apparently, she thinks that religion can become a cultural phenomenon wherein people just automatically identify with it without knowing what it means. She wasn't exactly clear here, but I take her to mean that either a)People are unaware of or have not accepted the necessary and sufficient conditions for being a Christian (and I honestly cannot wrap my mind around these people - I don't believe they actually exist) e.g. "I'm a Christian, but I don't believe that Jesus died for our sins, was resurrected, and that he was the son of God" or b) Jesus Christ - who is that?

Either way, I think what she might really mean is c) I know what it means to be a Christian and these people are not Christians. I think c is definitely the spookiest choice out of the 3 for the obvious reasons.

But here's my question - do the people in b) actually exist? Has anyone met them? Shaken their hand? I've never met them, but I was informed that was because I'm not a Christian.

that says that unless you are born again, accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour, then you aren't a real Christian. whatever.

i've had people try to "convert" me:
"Accept Jesus!"
"Uh, I'm already a Christian"
"You may think you are, but in fact the book of revelations blah blah blah"
and at that point, I lose interest and wander away.

it's a fairly meaningless book, written by a guy slowly dying and going insance from eating lead and silver. But it's great marketing, so it's included in the book, and it's fairly simple to understand, exclusionary and violent, so people like it. I see it as like including Die Hard on the list of the twenty best movies of the 20th century, people loved that shit, but that's no reason to base your life on it.

revalations = brain candy.

My mother hated Revelations and felt it should not be taught or included in the Bible. :)

The very end,

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

contradicts Christ at every level.

hell it sounds like a fucking chain letter "if you don't send this to 25 people in one hour, something really bad will happen to you."

all that said, it's a brilliant text, it does what it's supposed to do remarkably well. of course, what it's supposed to do is scare the living shit out of you and remind you that you are still better than all the other people who all the bad stuff is happening to, but it's really good at that!

No plural.
I'm not a Christian, but all you Christians are supposed to know that.
Maybe the crazy coffee lady is right.
;)

the names of half the books of the Bible :shrug: i only look at the 4 important ones (and Genesis, for a laugh once in a while)

:)

but you are correct. I will further confess to not knowing about Nahum. or about Habakkuk. and I thought Nehemiah was about John Jacob Nehemiah Smith.

I like to read the Gospels.

"just Church going with no acts" is her gripe.

Added on edit: I believe that "born again" can mean the same as the above.

In any case, I did enjoy your riff on the meeting you had! :-)

was how this woman could hold these two contradictory views at the same time:

1. "She brings up that Christians are persecuted in this country"

2. "She says that a lot of people just identify with the most pervasive religion (Christianity) of the land."

This is one twisted little Christian...

if she tells people that she's Christian?

I've talked to several Christians that think the other guy is not a "real" Christian. One fundie I know doesn't think Catholics or Mormons are Christians. I'm sure that given the freedom to do so the whole thing would degenerate into a religious war. If the fundies ever got their theocrat state they would immediately begin fighting with themselves over pre and post tribulation rapture or some such nonsense. It's only those of us with common sense that keeps them from killing each other.

People who are vaguely aware of the Jesus story as a result of growing up in a "Christian" country but who are unchurched. They know a little bit about the Nativity narative although the Little Drummer Boy is jumbled in there somewhere and they know less about Easter. Most of what they know comes from movies and televison and there is a lot of misinformation mixed in.

It's not that they are bad people as implied by the statement that "they are not Christians". I wouldn't dare say that about anyone. On the other hand, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and I wonder if someone who is a "cultural" Christian is the person most threatened when the Nativity scene is removed from the lawn of City Hall.

However, I doubt that they are the type to raise hell about Nativity scenes. More likely, those are the people emotionally invested in their belief rather than simply default believers.

so they don't have to worry about it. It puts religion in a nice comfortable niche, if you see what I mean. Every one agrees on what we believe, but no one has to act on what we believe.

that unless you buhlieve EXACTLY as *I* buhlieve - then you're NOT a TRUE BUHLIEVER!!!!








"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott

All Cross and no Christ.

Christianity doesn't seem to me to be under attack.

Oh, wait... Byrd is getting to his point now.

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cspan2_wm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS2

Blah blah blah Jesus blah blah...

Now he's quoting William Jennings Bryan...

Easter is the time to reflect upon immortality.

“well they aren’t real Christians” argument, as if the person making that argument has the final authority to make the judgment. It's a ridiculous argument really, but I guess it‘s their way of excusing all the devious behavior exhibited by so many of them etc...

For hundreds, if not thousnds, of years, Europeans were either Jews or not-Jews. Not-Jews were lumped into the christian pile, even though they might have been atheists, druids, or whatever. Eventually, "moslems" or "Moors" complicated things somewhat.

This is why we have idioms like "christian burial" and "christian name." So much is simply a matter of habit born out of unthinking repetition. People will call themselves christians despite having attended church that last time as much as 20-30 years ago, or more.

Cowboys never saw a church, but "said words" over dead compadres. And it usually amounted to, "Well, there's them green pastures." At least they gave their pard a "christian burial."

If it is, then please point me in the direction where that proof is.

Thanks.

and that the select few (which will be defined by her and may vary from moment to moment depending on what's politically expedient for her) are being persecuted by everyone else, who, even if they think they are Christian, are really just tools of the devil. :eyes:

Believe me, I've been her. There's no arguing logic with these people. They can't think for themselves, because that's a sign of being a Doubting Thomas and will get you sent straight to hell or at least demon possessed/tormented until you "repent."

edited for typo

Sure 80% may respond 'Christian' on a poll.

A lot will say Jesus is God, died and resurrected for their sins.

But this sort of extreme Christian probably thinks most of them are too 'luke warm', too disobedient in some way or other, etc.

Some of that 80% will say MAYBE Jesus is God, and some will say they follow Jesus the MAN. Some of them will doubt the resurrection and say it isn't as important as the meaning of transformation and new spiritual life and love and helping the poor, etc.

is that she thinks most Christians don't "know" Jesus in the way her denomination claims to "know" Him. Linked to the whole born-again belief.

To a fundamentalist, "to know Jesus Christ" has a very specific meaning, namely, that one has had a conversion experience.

Lest we should get overly serious here, I offer the aforementioned joke which I shamelessly lifted from emophilips.com (a site I hope you'll visit if you enjoy distinctly offbeat humor).


No. 1: Man on a bridge

Written by the comedian Emo Philips. 65% of people thought this was funny or very funny

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump. I ran over and said: "Stop. Don't do it."

"Why shouldn't I?" he asked.

"Well, there's so much to live for!"

"Like what?"

"Are you religious?"

He said, "Yes."

I said, "Me too. Are you Christian or Buddhist?"

"Christian."

"Me too. Are you Catholic or Protestant?"

"Protestant."

"Me too. Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"

"Baptist."

"Wow. Me too. Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"

"Baptist Church of God."

"Me too. Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?"

"Reformed Baptist Church of God."

"Me too. Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?"

He said: "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915."

I said: "Die, heretic scum," and pushed him off.

I love Emo Philips.

I'll definitely agree with coffee lady that in the western world (primarily the US but a little in Europe too) people, based upon family affiliation and tradition, bill themselves as Christian when they're not. There are lots of people in that 80% demographic which go to church easter and Christmas and have been doing so since childhood but aren't religious being that margin. This also applies to other religions, I know quite a bit of first generation US born muslims and they would say that they are muslim when more or less their families are. The same thing with many jewish families the children have Bar mitzvahs/Bat mitzvahs but don't really go to synagogue or delve deeply into the Torah but are Jewish by culture.

when Christians go around saying that so-and-so can't be a real Christian because he or she doesn't agree with the speaker?