Do Atheists Have Choice???

For me, it wasn't choice. It was natural for me. You may not agree with me, but not everyone shares the same belief system.
http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/beliefchoice.htm

choice for me ...

I CAN'T.

I don't believe many things, but I recognize the FACT that anyone CAN, if they want to.

I CAN'T.

Apastafarians know He exists, they just choose to deny His Noodley Appendage.

And another thing, I'm really tired of being depressed because of all of the violence and suffering in Iraq.

So I'm choosing to believe Lil Boots when he says everything's fine.

of course they have choice -- so then what -- in the 21st century is the purpose of the question?

Jesus Christ on a trailer hitch, what an ignorant belief.

which belief systems suit us.

doesn't have to be religion or the lack of it.

the antique quality comes froman old argument that aetheists are aetheists because they do not KNOW something{i.e. christ or mohammed or the flying spaghetti monster}.

now, which is stupid -- do aetheists not know something that believers do?

of course not -- aetheism is every bit as fullfilling as any other.

I am going to say this one more time, pay attention,

MY ATHEISM IS NOT A CHOICE !!!

It is not a belief system, it is not a religion and it is NOT a choice.



And for Christ's sake, if you're going to misrepresent us, at least spell it correctly, it's atheist with one e.

but typing really large letters in red doesn't prove your point.

First of all, this isn't about whether atheism is a belief system or not, so don't bring that into it. More to the point, it IS clearly a choice. To not believe in a concept is a choice, because it is a conclusion that diverges from another. Furthermore, it is also a fact that individuals have a choice of what they do on every matter, this being no exception.

to not believe in your god?
to be sexually attracted to the gender you are not attracted to?

I do not believe that I could choose to believe in god. I do not believe that I could delude myself to get to that point. I could go through the motions, but I would not believe there is a divine creator. Sorry, not going to happen. I will agree that I had the choice to question my faith. I had the choice to explore and reason. But I could not, at this point, choose to believe in a god. To say so, in my opinion, creates a world in which god actually does exist and I just choose to ignore him.

Could you believe that the sun orbits the earth?
Could you believe that the sun will rise in the west tomorrow morning?
Could you believe that the moon is made of cheese?

I do have a choice to not believe what I currently believe. However, I see no reason as to choose not to.

Sexual preference is completely different from a viewpoint on (the concept of) divinity. They are not the same whatsoever. That is like saying a person's favorite flavor of ice cream is just as innate as their eye color. People DO choose whether to be atheist or otherwise, and this is because if one conclusion is divergent from another, one who agrees with that conclusion must choose it.

Well, I don't FEEL that I could believe something else, nor would I want to, but that doesn't stop me from recognizing the clear fact that I easily could. Although you may find every bit of support for the viewpoint you have, that does nothing to alter your undeniable ability to choose. That you could not "bring yourself" to reach another conclusion is due to the fact that you choose not to do so. If you really wanted to believe in divinity, you most assuredly could. You (more than) probably won't, but that is wholly inconsequential.

Yes, I could believe that the sun orbits the earth, but I don't.
I could believe that the sun will rise in the west tomorrow morning, but I don't.
I could believe the moon is made out of cheese, be it cheddar or feta or otherwise, but I don't.

So could you.

if the moon is made of cheese, it is blue cheese. Duh.

I see it WAY differntly from you. Could I dilude myself into thinking the sun orbits the earth. Maybe if I went to the garage and hit myself on the head with a hammer several times. Seriously. How could you convince yourself of that fact? How could you REALLY BELIEVE it? I couldn't.

It's totally feta you ****!

:hi:

Of course we see it differently, but it is very true that individuals decide their paths. You may not be able to dilude yourself because you wouldn't WILLFULLY choose to believe such a falsity. However, if your will was not of the same persuation, no abuse to your head would be needed in order to conclude it.

To me, we both CHOOSE to conclude that the earth is round, that the sun orbits the earth, that objects fall at equal speeds and many other facts. They are true, surely, but that has little bearing on our ability to personally affirm those truths. We could just as easily think something else, but that would require a willfull decision to believe something obviously incorrect, something neither you nor I would feasibly do. However, both you and I feasibly COULD, and that's what matters here.

I was wrong to deny Him.

I went to church for the first thirteen years of my life. But I never believed. *Never*

I found the whole thing silly, just-so stories. I considered the Bible to be precisely what it is, a work of fiction created by altogether ignorant people who not understanding how the universe worked needed to create some explanation out of whole cloth. I still feel the same way about it.

But oh how the religionists have used those just-so stories to justify the infliction of every kind of horror and cruelty on their fellow man. It is organized religion which is filthy and evil, not atheism.

that's not in dispute. However, what about the people who did believe, and now do not? THAT is an obvious choice.

Also, you can choose to start believing in those same stories, but you choose not to.

Finally, this isn't a discussion on what is "filthy and evil".

And you get a new choice with each breath.

I didn't choose my skin color.

I didn't choose my sexual orientation.

And I most certainly did NOT choose not to believe in god(s).



And I thought the fundies at work were ignorant.

You can choose whether or not to take that next breath, right? Or do you believe that a person has no free will over the choice of this most fundamental of actions? And kindly realize I am talking not of the past but of the present moment; after all, that is all we ever have. The power of one's own personal thoughts and perceptions create one's world; no one can take that power away from you.

Look it up.

I can no sooner make myself believe in mythical creatures than I can make myself homosexual, black or republican.

there are several ways; a bullet to the head, for example.

But you didn't get the rest of what I said; you create your reality by your thoughts and beliefs. That to you God is a mythic creature is perfectly fine-for you, for that fits in with your view of reality. I won't ever attempt to change it in any way, for only the individual can change or modify his / her beliefs-and it is his/her choice on whether or not to change them.

One more time, I don't CHOOSE to not believe in deities.

I CAN'T.

I also CAN'T believe there are little green men on Mars, leprechauns with pots of gold at the ends of rainbows or that white plastic chairs are behind all of the conspiracies.

But according to you, I could make those things real by clicking my heels together three times and repeating the words.

the power of thought is such that what you perceive is what you get. And it is obvious what you have gotten. Go in peace.

I love being told exactly what I believe and why I believe it by "liberals".

I can only imagine the furor if I tried to do the same to them.

and as I have said again and again, your world view obviously is the right one for you. What in the world is so intolerant about that? Again, go in peace. I have no intention nor do I wish to change your beliefs, nor will I belittle them.

It is not an option for me.

And it's a sore point with me and many other atheists because so many insecure christians insist on redefining our atheism.

They seem to need to believe that we deny their god.


I do not wish to change anyone's beliefs either, just to inform in the interest of tolerance.

What is being said is that you could easily believe if you chose to. That is a fact.

"They seem to need to believe that we deny their god."

That is ridiculous. We are only saying that anyone has a choice over the conclusion they reach. Also, no one is redefining anything, either.

But then we both participate in mystic faiths and practices, so the power of the mind is paramount to us.

I'm not saying it, though, to make BMUS feel bad; I just believe that her belief system fits for her, and that's cool.

you may believe that you don't have a choice, but it is obvious that you do.

You could easily believe that there are little green men on Mars and anything else, because any individual can. Until you stop believing that you are somehow superior to others solely because you have a different outlook on a certain subject, you won't get anywhere, and indeed you are not.

IMO belief systems are associated with IQ/analytical ability and my brain will not settle for believing in something it sees as BS. At about 10 I first heard about evolution my immediate thought was, "That makes sense". Haven't changed my mind on that and I'm 80.

you can stop breathing. Many people unfortunately do. It's called suicide.

The fact is that you could have decided that evolution was BS, even if your initial thought was that it was not. Many people didn't think evolution made sense, but later they decided that it did. Those decisions are "choices" that people make. In this way, people choose to believe, or they choose not to believe. It is that simple.

Also, I know that it was just your opinion, but I think it is somewhat cavalier to say that someone who is atheist has a higher "IQ/analytical ability", or that religion is always "BS". People of all analytical abilities are theist, and a conclusion on (the concept of) divinity has nothing to do with a person's IQ.

and which "atheist genes" have been isolated so far? Until then, putting one's opinion on a certain concept on the same level of skin color and sexual orientation is simply mistaken.

Everyone has a choice to do what they want. That is a fact. As I have said before, any conclusion which diverges from another requires one who agrees with that conclusion to choose it.

to believe anything. Others develop such that they have both an open mind and intellectual integrity--and when they give a fair viewing the evidence (rather than closing their minds to everything except what they've been told or is taught in their group/church/family or what is spelled out in their 'accepted' list of writings), IF they conclude that the explanations provided by whatever religions they've considered are inadequate... Then they still have a choice... to believe in some as yet unknown or unexplained God/Creator or not. However, if they then consider the concept of God and conclude to their own satisfaction that it's simply most unlikely; then IF they have "intellectual integrity", they must believe as their rational minds dictate.

Now then, it's certainly easier to dismiss the God or Gods presented by a religion or all religions than it is to be convinced that nothing that might be considered to be a God exists; but for some, it seems rationally consistent that no God exists--at least nothing remotely similar to those proposed by mankind thus far. However, the question was "choice". The thing is, once you've become convinced one way or the other, until or unless you are open to considering new ideas and you also become convinced by some new information (or, being an organic consciousness, some internal change occurs to your thinking patterns), you're essentially stuck in that mode. In a sense, you have no choice but that could change.

It's similar to, but significantly different/more complex as well, to the question of "Do you have a choice whether or not you like the taste of chocolate?". If you do, you do; if not, you don't. You may learn chocolate is fattening and causes cancer (it's more anti-cancer than carcinogenic; but that's besides the point), and, say, causes your terrible acne... and you may be able to convince yourself you dislike the taste. Perhaps aversion therapy can help you change your mind. Do you have a choice? Maybe. It depends.

Perhaps the question for comparison is "Do you believe chocolate is good?". If you trust medical research as to the validity of it's effects and if you've had anecdotal experiences to support the same indicating it's goodness and you like the taste... have you then any choice? What if it's conflicting; then surely you have a choice of whether or not to "Believe" chocolate is good. Then again, if you don't like chocolate and think it's probably cancerous and definitely fattening; do you have any choice but to think it's either "not good" or "bad".

Another question would be... does this question even make any sense? Or even more pertinently, is there any single best answer? Any real answer at all?

Anyway, my own sense is that your likelihood of "believing" or not is related to your upbringing; what approaches to thinking or understanding the world you're exposed to (especially by your parents), what your parent's beliefs are and what your environment has exposed you to. To a very small degree would be your own inherent, genetic predispositions for certain personalities, certain types of thinking. Do you have a choice--maybe.

While it's possible there could be a genetic component, which might involve how you accept or reject the behaviour of others, I think your upbringing is more relevant. At first, that's not really up to you at all, but, while you're still a child, you start to form opinions on who you think is sincere, or wise, how you can categorise people or their claims, and the weight you give that against your personal experience of life. If you believe in the concept of free will, then choices that we make will eventually affect whether we believe in gods or not (eg listen to a priest because you like the way he helps people, or read a science book because you want to know about dinosaurs), but I don't think that anyone has ever had the simple choice "should you believe in a god? Here are the objective arguments - decide now, and your opinion will suddenly change because you've made an objective choice".

I've always been an atheist. My parents are Christians of some denomination or other but it was never talked about much in our house. We never went to church. I remember my mom once bought me a children's bible and tape set (on my request I think).


Once I was old enough to have the mental tools to think about such things I realized I did not believe in god. For a short time, a year or two, I think I saw it as another thing that adults say they believe but really do not. Like Santa or the Easter bunny but much more serious. I shortly realized that was not the case and that they were very much serious about their beliefs. My opinion never changed.

I didn't choose not to believe it just never was a "live option" for me. When I was in my early 20's I did give it a try though. Like the article says, lots of people will say that you just don't want to "just believe". So, for one week every morning and night I prayed. I prayed that if there was a Jesus, if there was a God , that I wanted him to "fill my heart" , "open my eyes", to let me believe. I did this not out of any particular longing, I just thought it was fair to give believer's advice a fair shake. I didn't do it in jest, I took it quite seriously.

Nothing.

You can't make yourself believe in something like god or religion.

I just never bought it. And like you, I made some earnest efforts to let it at me, but it never happened. I liked bible stories as a child, and that led to a long interest in fantasy and science fiction.

I agree with the poster above who said it's like taste. You can't decide what your favorite flavor is. It may be genetic, or it could come from early childhood (or even pre-natal) reality testing, but I could no more accept religion than I could believe one and one is three.

--IMM

a choice, either? That they simply are inherently and necessarily theists?

I agree with you 100%.

I would never try to tell a theist that their beliefs are a choice.

Of course, I'm liberal that way.

I made no choice to be Native American;

I made no choice to be lesbian.

I made a very conscious choice to be a Democrat (more or less, there not being a viable Green party available);

And I made a very conscious choice to be a pagan. I deliberately chose not to be a Catholic, a Baptist, a Buddhist, a Muslim or an atheist, after having considered all those options. Every real-life atheist I know speaks of having made a comparable choice--of having considered the options and chosen the one that made most sense to him or her. I have to say that this is the only venue where I've encountered the idea that belief or lack of it is somehow innate.

Are you sure about that Democrat thing?

Because I always believed they were more liberal.

What I'm saying is that I've never encountered a "natural" atheist, any more than I've encountered a "natural" Baptist. In the absence of proof, I remain a skeptic on both counts.

And I'm skeptical about the liberal thing.

Just skeptical about "natural atheism" or "natural any-other-kind-of-ism."

Explain.

or a Baptist a Baptist, how does it happen? Is it:

1. genetics;

2. brain chemistry; or

3. other?

I've seen no proof that it's any of them. Do you have any to offer?

Babies know nothing of gods.

Religious beliefs are taught.

Or, in my case, they weren't.

So I remain, and always have been, an atheist.

But there's a difference between, say, "I'm naturally not a clarinet player" and "I'm not a clarinet player because I was never taught."

Many of them end up not believing what they're taught.
Some don't believe in deities at all.
Some end up believing in non-traditional ones.

Maybe some of those people choose what to believe, but I doubt that whether or not to believe at all is a choice for most.

If I did think it was a choice, I would be convinced that T.Grannie could stop believing in her god right now.

brainwashed.
Why is it so hard to conceive that some are Atheistic by nature???

What else can we compare it to in order to get them to understand?
:banghead:

:rofl:

Sorry, I just like using that smilie. :D

there is no other way to compare. They don't understand our frustration in our effort of explanation.

are they willing to claim they can stop believing on cue?

They just object to being able to "Freethink". I suppose there's a certain amount of envy, because they're so busy assimilating to the majority.

evil atheist stereotypes left over from the good old days.



They CHOOSE to deny GAW-UD !

Put your hand on the tee vee and say it with me now!

Pray for the sinners, brothers and sisters!




I just wish more people would question the old stereotypes.

I don't think all believers are like the tee vee evangelists.

comparison would be to use other, maybe archaic religions, like the Greek Gods. Santa and the Tooth Fairy are for children.

But if you used the Greek or Roman Pantheon, that would be a good analogy. Adults believed in them. Indeed, cultures were founded upon them and thrived for many years.

Regarding me choosing my faith, I think I could be logicked into only believing what my five senses and scientific instruments reveal, but I'd probably shrivel up and die because my greatest joy comes from my feeling of one-ness with this entity or energy I call God.

about whether or not to be an atheist doesn't mean that I believe that an atheist should change.

You are a person of high morals, and see religious belief as non-rational and unacceptable. These are very deeply-held beliefs. Just because something is a product of one's environment does not mean that one can change easily. And, while we may disagree here, I do not want to frustrate you. I want to support you with you being exactly who you are.

It never was.

I didn't weigh my options, sleep on it or even realize there were options.

I can't force myself to believe in supernatural beings any more than other people can't decide to start believing in Santa again.

It's just that I believe that very deeply-held values are essentially the equivalent of 'no choice.'

I could never become anti-gay in philosophy, even if I wanted to be so (for some absurd reason).

follow certain practices and rituals. I mean, I could go to church anyway. Pray every day even though I don't believe. Etc. Etc. But the not believing I can't do anything about that. I didn't believe long before I knew much about it. Now that I do know plenty I believe it even less. Not sure how a choice came in to it.

Edit: By the way, I don't think it has anything to do with being "innate". Perhaps my life experience "caused" my inability to believe. Maybe some of it was genetic but it doesn't have to be the case in order for it not to be a conscious choice.

Well, if you weren't raised with a faith you wouldn't have to make a choice about it, I would think. If you were raised in a family of believers, you would have to choose not to believe. Does that make sense?

Or it has occurred to me, as a belever, that in the grand scheme of things maybe atheists aren't supposed to believe. Maybe they are even biologically incapable. Maybe our species ensures a certain level of rationality to keep going? The problem starts when we mingle!

Just kidding..mingling is cool.

But I do know it's illogical to believe people can turn personal beliefs on and off like a vibrator.

It's like saying we can choose to be rigid intolerant fundamentalists that advocate shooting doctors who perform abortions.

I just spit carrot cake on my computer screen.

Great metaphor.

You inspire me. :evilgrin:

We both agree that even if something is affected by environment factors, that doesn't mean it is reasonably possible to change.

I cannot choose to believe in Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah any more than I can believe that pink furry invisible elves are standing behind my chair as I type. Although I used to believe in this god, I took a good, hard look inside myself and found that when I looked at God again, I found his very nature illogical. Therefore, I don't believe in him anymore. I COULD go to church, wear my rosary, cross myself and pray to God, but I would know that I'm lying to myself and everyone else. From what atheists here and elsewhere have told me, I trust they feel the same way.

I stopped believing after a period of doubting, and that was it for me. I could no sooner resume believing in God than I could resume believing in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny.

I was faced with no other alternative.

When theists say that atheists have made a "choice" to not believe in god, it assumes that there is a god. We heathens just have decided that we don't want to believe in it. If I wanted to believe in god, I couldn't. I could give lip service, but I would not REALLY think that there was some guy in the sky. Or that there was anything.

That's the problem. Unlike BMUS, I was raised in a religion. Very strict Catholic. I would not describe my journey to atheism a CHOICE so much as a realization. Though reading, thought, and observing the world, I came to the realization that there is no god. I just don't define that as a choice.

I know some of you still will. But you could at least be aware that it is offensive to many. You now know the reasons. It is the same as me thinking that theists could just stop believing at the drop of a hat.

I think that's a good way to put it. :hi:

Its a choice between reason and faith. If you want to throw common sense and reason out the window and place your yourself in the hands of in blind faith of a flawed fairy tale, thats your choice. Ergo, its a choice. Just my humble opinion.

Well maybe a color blind person correct? There are almost certainly some people wired in such a way that they just can not accept the idea of a mythical god being a practical way of understanding the world around them.

Your question sounds like it should be simple but I think it's actually pretty complex for many atheists.

For some I'm sure it does not feel at all like a choice.

For myself I could not always call myself an atheist but for the most part it was not truly because I believed, even as a young child, it was more that I was not confident enough to express how I really felt and my skepticism.

So I was in essence always an atheist but 'afraid' to boldly come out.

And I also know from personal experience that even if something drives me to 'try and believe' it just does not stick.

And particularly now that I have gained this confidence and have 'come out' as it were. I can not imagine not being an atheist, it would be a lie, it would be more than a lie it would be false I would have to be a TOTALLY different person.

Certainly it'd be easy for me to 'pass' as a theist but that doesn't change the core of what I am.

For some atheists I'm sure it is closer to a choice, perhaps those that were once deeply religious and over years of self-examination and experiences came to the realization that they no longer believe. But once they've made that choice can they really choice to return to 'believing'? It seems a very fundamental change in mindset.

He said that I did have a choice...that I just CHOSE not to believe in god. That I could CHOOSE to if I actually went to church and tried.

BUT I HAVE GONE TO CHURCH

I HAVE READ THE ENTIRE BIBLE

I HAVE READ CHRISTIAN WRITING

I HAVE BEEN TO YOUTH GROUP

I HAVE EVEN PRAYED ONCE OR TWICE

and guess what..

I STILL DON'T BELIEVE!!! I NEVER BELIEVED! WHAT THE HELL AM I SUPPOSED TO DO IN ORDER TO BELIEVE!

I challenged him, and I will challenge any theist here. Tell me...tell me what I am supposed to do start believing! Last time I went to church, I just sat there and thought....man, I can't believe people believe this crap. It was not conscious....deep inside I feel the whole freaking thing is ridiculous. Tell me then, without vague bullshit like, "open yourself to christ" or "meditate on the bible and open yourself to truths"...how do I go about changing a belief?

renders truth through analysis. I'll always say, "you cannot make someone believe something that they can't touch nor see".

To have choice, one has to have "free will" -- but "free will" is a very slippery concept. The closer you try to examine the idea of free will, the further it slips away.

You could suppose the universe is entirely deterministic, in which case no one has any real choices about anything. Everything you do, and everything you believe -- including believing or not believing in God or gods or free will -- happens as it must happen, is how it must be.

The universe could be non-deterministic, but still be without free will. There could be totally random factors in the way the universe unfolds (quantum mechanics gives us good reason to believe this) interacting with deterministic rules, but if those factors are truly random, your "will" still has nothing to do with what happens in the universe, you're simply going along for a ride within the bounded limits of an unpredictable sequence of events.

"Free will" has to be something which is neither deterministic nor random. But what can that possibly mean? If someone is born with a "basic character", and that basic character leads to certain choices, are those "choices" really choices at all, or just a deterministic outcome resulting from in-born traits? If your experiences, or experiences plus in-born traits, determine your choices, where does "free will" show up in that picture? Even if some of your experiences themselves result from previous choices of your own, the chain of choices in your life would ultimately lead back to a time before the very first choice you possibly could have made, a time when in-born traits and imposed experiences were the only available factors -- apart from sheer, dumb randomness and some still-undefined concept of "free will".

If "free will" ultimately does not depend on deterministic factors, nor on in-born characteristics, nor on random noise, what is there left as a basis for freely-willed choices?

I don't have any good answers for these questions. The more I think about these things, the more free will seems like nothing more than an illusion. Yet I still function as if this thing called "free will" exists. I have opinions about what people should or shouldn't do, I have positive feelings towards those whom I believe do (what I consider) good things, and negative feelings towards those who do (what I consider) bad things. I spend time writing long posts like this as if I believe what I write can have some small impact (even if that impact is merely entertainment), an impact that I somehow imagine I "chose" to try to make or not.

To BMUS: I understand your frustration about others trying to impose their definitions of your choices and beliefs (or lack thereof) upon you. But if someone says you "choose" to be an atheist, and you disagree, can you come up with a meaning of "choice" which still leaves room for free will of any sort, or are you left with a completely deterministic world in which no one, not just yourself, as any choice about anything?

or did you chose for some reason not to believe any longer?

That should sum up my feelings on the subject.

I fully accept my atheism is a belief. fellow atheists that get indignant about atheism being a belief are mixing up religious beliefs and philosophical belielfs. Atheism is simply the result of the adherence to the philosophical theory of materialsm, which says there is no supernatural, the physical world is all that thier is.

And I'm not " mixing up" anything.

I am an agnostic atheist.

I would appreciate it if you would refrain from using your belief system to define my atheism.

It's bad enough when the God-bots do it.

It's not a choice. I tried for years, I was a perfect little Christian, but I never really believed.

It took me a while but I came to the realization that being an Atheist it who I really am, and now that I know that I'm happier.

A belated welcome to DU. :D

Please post more often, we need rational voices.

:hi:

myself and beam me up scottie were the only ones here(being of no choice).

I'm expecting a lot of new converts to Pastafarianism.

Hey, you can't beat those beer volcanoes.:P

I'm sure there or others out there that don't view it as a choice. But if there's not, oh well.

It's mostly the believers who beg the question.

Curious that none of them showed up in my thread to either convert to Pastafarianism or deny The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I posit they're terrified of The Truth.

But I'd rather have it in my face.

--IMM

That was done to me once in my yute.

I can't say my dear mother was abusive, but she did know how to make a point. LOL

--IMM

I like it.

I'm hungry, discipline me. :P

I wouldn't have been wearing the spaghetti.

--IMM

I'm another one. Atheism is natural for me too.

--IMM

When I was younger I read through most of the major religious texts but there is no way I could make myself believe them.