Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Chávez: Castro is a 'social' Christian

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Religion/Theology Donate to DU
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 08:11 AM
Original message
Chávez: Castro is a 'social' Christian
Edited on Fri May-12-06 08:11 AM by Mika
Chávez: Castro is a 'social' Christian
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/americas/14560350.htm
ROME - (AP) -- Fidel Castro may not be a believer, but he's a Christian in a certain sense, according to his close friend, Venezuela's leftist President Hugo Chávez.

''I have a friend who isn't Christian, but who recently said he is Christian in the social sense: His name is Fidel Castro,'' Chávez said after arriving in Rome Wednesday to meet with Pope Benedict XVI at the start of a five-nation European and North African tour.

'I talk to him a lot about Christ each time we see each other, and he told me recently, `Chávez, I'm Christian in the social sense,' '' Chávez told reporters.







Before the 1959 revolution

  • 75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.
  • More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.
  • 85% had no inside running water.
  • 91% had no electricity.
  • There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.
  • More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.
  • Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.
  • The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.
  • 45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.
  • 25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.
  • 1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).
  • 27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.
  • Racial discrimination was widespread.
  • The public school system had deteriorated badly.
  • Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.
  • Police brutality and torture were common.

    ___



    After the 1959 revolution
    “It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

    Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

    -

    It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

    By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

    Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

    Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

    “Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

    Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

    “Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

    It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

    There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

    The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

    “Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

    Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

    The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

    “What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.
  • Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
    bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 08:14 AM
    Response to Original message
    1. Tsk tsk tsk, The Pope won't like this.
    I'm sure they thought they stomped this Liberation Theology stuff out for good in the 80s.
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 08:18 AM
    Response to Reply #1
    2. The last Pope went to Cuba....
    Castro even bought a suit for the occasion.



    Chavez made that remark to befuddle the Castro-haters & the Catholic-haters simultaneously. And he succeeded.

    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    RedStateShame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 08:44 AM
    Response to Original message
    3. WHAT?!
    You mean to tell me that Jesus wasn't the innovator of trickle-down economics? That's the last time I borrow Tom DeLay's bible!!!
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    Kipling Donating Member (929 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 08:45 AM
    Response to Original message
    4. I am not optimistic about the future of Cuba.
    It has two options when Castro dies.
    Either it stays communist, in which case its economy will continue to be crippled by blockades and its strong development statistics will, eventually, start to lag behind. Things like medicine are only going to become more dependant on technology, and with Cuba's limited expertise it will have to be imported.
    Or it chucks out communism, in which case its society will collapse just like Russia's did. When all the economic, social and political life of your country is focused on one principle, removing it will always cause problems.
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 08:56 AM
    Response to Reply #4
    5. Obviously, you've not been to Cuba recently.
    Cuba has been transforming its economic and political systems for decades.

    A great book that illustrates this is..


    Democracy in Cuba and the 1997-98 Elections
    Arnold August
    1999
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    Johnyawl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 09:04 AM
    Response to Reply #4
    6. Cuba has a lot more options that that
    Edited on Fri May-12-06 09:05 AM by Johnyawl

    And here's one of the reasons why:

    http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2279218

    China, and now Vietnam, are proving that there are many different paths to follow away from "pure" communism

    Cuba has an educated population, that has it's basic needs taken care of, i,e., health, safety, housing, food. I think they'll be remarkably adabtable in the coming years. With money from the new oil fields Castro will have the one thing he's always lacked: a large supply of dollars to invest in his country.

    What Cuba will need when Fidel dies is stability; to be left alone. He better hang on until we get this gang of criminals out of the WH.

    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 09:14 AM
    Response to Reply #6
    8. Castro this, Castro that
    Edited on Fri May-12-06 09:19 AM by Mika
    Its the US propaganda stream that convinces Americans that Cuba is Castro's property. Its not. The Cuban people would not tolerate such a thing. They have demonstrated this repeatedly throughout their history.

    So stop with the 'Castro this and Castro that' anti Cuba diatribes. Please. Its just such uninformed Bushco propaganda.


    Cuba has elected representation that manages their infrastructure and resources (and they have managed their meager resources quite well under duress, according to most statistics such as universal high quality health care, universal high quality education, longevity, infant mortality etc).

    http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm
    This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

    There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.




    Of course, Americans can't readily find this out for themselves because of the US government travel ban on American travel to Cuba. Instead most all we get is the spew from our corporatist economic hit man government.

    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 09:20 AM
    Response to Reply #4
    9. "Kipling"?
    Edited on Fri May-12-06 09:20 AM by 1932
    Why not "Dulles"?
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    Kipling Donating Member (929 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 09:52 AM
    Response to Reply #9
    10. Derives from a British political cartoon.
    And as for the snide comment about Dulles, I'm not saying I'm opposed to communism or even Castro (actually I am, mostly due to his stance on gays). I'm just saying that it can't last forever on a small island with such a big, aggressive neighbour.
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 10:00 AM
    Response to Reply #10
    11. The Cuban gov stance on gays has changed
    Edited on Fri May-12-06 10:53 AM by Mika
    Cuba's gov changed its homophobic stance in the late 70's early 80's.

    The government even recognizes gay marriage now.

    Cuba today is not like the Cuba of yesteryear.


    Cuba has the best numbers re: AIDS and transmission and treatment. As is the case across the board with Cuban health care, prevention is the mainstay. Responsible sex ed in Cuba was and is paramount. Condom and barrier methods are advertised in Cuban media and given for free in the local health clinics that exist in almost every neighborhood.

    Just as the case in the USA, it can be construed as a crime if an hiv+ person deliberately infects others after a diagnosis. But, unlike the USA, the perp is treated at a clinic and not sent to prison - prisons, where the infection would run rampant (as is the case in the USA).

    Apparently, to the hard line Castrophobes, Cuba's treating AIDS patients in hospitals and clinics is anti gay. :crazy:


    BTW, AIDS came to Cuba from its troops returning from the Angola war and the Cuban Health Ministry knew early on that hiv/aids was/is not a gay-only related infection/transmission. In the early 1980's, when hiv and AIDS weren't even mentioned by the US Prez, Cuba's health care system was very concerned with the transmission of the "wasting disease", so the AIDS sanatoriums were created. Patients were treated with first class treatments, and they were entirely voluntary - except for the hiv+ patients who continued to infect others with criminal negligence (continuing unprotected sexual contact that resulted in transmissions). But even those criminally negligent patients were not sent to jails, they were sent for treatment and reeducation.



    But, because Americans can't go there because of the US gov travel ban, most Americans have no way to discover this for themselves.

    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    Kipling Donating Member (929 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 10:51 AM
    Response to Reply #11
    12. I have been to Cuba...
    Admittedly very briefly: I stopped off there on the way to the Cayman Islands. I come from Britain so there is no travel ban.

    As to gays, from Wikipedia:
    The Cuban government tolerates neither lesbian nor gay newspapers, nor LGBT organizations. The Cuban Association of Gays and Lesbians, formed in 1994, was suppressed in 1997 and its members were arrested.

    Today, Article 303a of the Criminal Code punishes "Publicly Manifested Homosexuality" with up to three months and one year in prison, or a fine of 100 to 300 cuotas <13>. In the City of Havana numerous private parties are both tolerated and raided by Cuban police, although the arrest will likely be justified for reasons other then homosexuality.

    No Cuban law prohibits discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or provides any sort of legal recognition of same-sex relations, i.e. civil unions or marriage, although most of the legal benefits given to married couples, are already extended to single people in Cuba.

    In 2003, Carlos Sanchez from the Internationla Lesbian and Gay Association issued a report on the status of gay people in Cuba that claimed that the Cuban government no longer offers any legal punishment for its gay citizens, that there is a greater level of tolerance among Cubans for gay and transgender people, and that the Cuban government was open to endorsing a gay rights plank at the United Nations <14>.

    Not quite ideal. And there's also the matter of freedom of speech and the press. Armando Valladares is a case in point.
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 10:58 AM
    Response to Reply #12
    13. Wiki on Cuba: War of words: website can't define Cuba
    Wiki isn't a reliable source when it comes to Cuba topics.


    War of words: website can't define Cuba
    http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/breaking_news/14485633.htm
    What's a neutral point of view? The Cuba entry in the online reference site Wikipedia shows just how difficult it is for the volunteer-run website to tackle politically charged subjects.
    BY PABLO BACHELET
    pbachelet@MiamiHerald.com

    WASHINGTON - One editor complained that Havana sympathizers were transforming a scholarly enterprise into ''their own private Fidel Castro fan page.'' A user was tossed out after threatening to sue another for libel.

    The fuss is over the Cuba entry in Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia created, edited and administered entirely by volunteers with the altruistic purpose of becoming a Web-based knowledge repository for humanity.

    But the Cuba entry, like those on President Bush and abortion, has been snared in intense political divisions over everything from the impact of U.S. sanctions on the communist-ruled island to whether it should have a separate section on its human rights record. Russia and North Korea do not.

    There have been so many dueling edits -- 30 entries on April 27 alone -- that the article has been placed off-limits to first-time or unregistered users. The article has notices alerting readers that the neutrality of four sections is under dispute.

    A central tenet of Wikipedia is that articles must be written in a neutral point of view. But, as the debate on the talk page attached to the Cuba article demonstrates, neutrality is often in the eye of the beholder.

    The debate over Cuba turned intense after Adam Carr, who identifies himself as having a Ph.D. in history from the University of Melbourne in Australia and a gay rights activist, introduced this sentence high in the article: ``Cuba is a socialist republic, in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the sole legal political party, and is the only state in the western hemisphere that is not a democracy.''

    SPIRITED DEBATE

    This prompted responses that went from scholarly citations of political scientists with definitions of democracy, to accusations of not-so-hidden political agendas.

    Bruce Hallman wrote that calling Cuba undemocratic is a ''logical fallacy'' because it applies ''capitalistic values'' in the context of a socialist society. 'Might it be possible to write the article without using the word `democracy' at all?'' he suggested.

    ''Sorry, comrade, no dice,'' answered Carr, one of the few writers who posts a description of himself. ``These comments show quite clearly that you are a communist, or at least someone who actively supports the Castro dictatorship, not just . . . someone who is naïve about the realities of Cuba.''

    With neither side giving in, on April 15 a ''mediation cabal'' -- an informal mediator -- joined the discussion. The cabal suggested citing reputable sources to back the Cuba-is-not-a-democracy sentence.

    ''If we need a citation that Cuba is not a democracy, then maybe we need citation that Cuba is in Latin America,'' retorts CJK, another user.

    ''Cuba is a dictatorship, plain and simple,'' says Carr, calling Castro's foreign supporters ``gullible idiots.''

    Failing to produce an agreement, the cabal departed after complaining that several editors were being rude.

    Others argued that if the article discusses human rights in Cuba, then it should also point out U.S. human rights abuses. ''We will not be distracted by the well-known communist diversionary tactic of playing bogus moral equivalence games,'' Carr responded.

    Scott Grayban, a talk page writer who claims to be a U.S. Air Force veteran, calls Carr ''nothing more than a pro-Bush hate-Cuba type person'' and in a separate e-mail threatened to sue Carr for libel. An administrator promptly banned Grayban for life from editing Wikipedia.

    Other users also have been banned, including ''Comandante,'' who has changed the Cuba article more than 700 times. Another participant wrote that Comandante's Internet address suggests he lives in Cuba.

    POPULAR SITE

    A few years ago, online discussions of this sort would have gone unnoticed. But Wikipedia is now the 17th-most-visited site in the world, according to Alexa Internet, a Web-ranking outfit owned by Amazon.com.

    Created by Web entrepreneur Jimmy Wales, who today heads the foundation that oversees the site, Wikipedia is an example of ''social computing'' -- the ability of users to create their own content without relying on the filters of newspaper or hard-copy encyclopedia editors.

    Wikipedia has had some stumbles. A hoax entry wrongly implicated journalist John Seigenthaler in the JFK assassination. Several U.S. congressional staffers have been caught altering their bosses' entries.

    There are now 900 volunteer administrators patrolling the site to keep troublemakers at bay, as well as formal arbitration mechanisms.

    Most articles are uncontroversial, says Kat Walsh, an administrator for Wikipedia. But ''where people are out fighting in the real world, they're going to have differences of opinion on Wikipedia as well,'' she said.
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 11:02 AM
    Response to Reply #12
    14. Article 303a "Publicly Manifested Homosexuality" = prostitution
    Edited on Fri May-12-06 11:03 AM by Mika
    Article 303a relates to Cuba's prostitution laws.

    In Cuba, prostitution - either heterosexual or homosexual - is illegal. The same goes in the USA


    Cuba started recognizing gay marriage in 2004.

    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:36 AM
    Response to Reply #14
    17. Personally,
    I think the biggest problem with homosexuality is the Latin American culture more than anything else. The Cuban government has taken many great strides for progress, but the same homophobia which plagues most, if not all, of Latin America may not take equal strides. Does anyone know if the general feeling about homosexuality is improving or pretty tolerant in Cuba? Regardless, it is great that Cuba has taken these measures.

    Also, I find it interesting that once again, Cuba is WAY ahead of the US when it comes to civil rights (equal gender rights guaranteed in Cuban Constitution for at least 4 decades and now recognizing gay marriage).
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 09:12 AM
    Response to Original message
    7. Thanks for the popcorn break
    :popcorn:

    I'm waiting for the usual suspects to start their anti-Chavez rants.
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 07:40 PM
    Response to Original message
    15. Rome are you listening?
    You might like what you hear!
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 07:43 PM
    Response to Reply #15
    16. p.s. looks like you can still rec this thread
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Mon Apr 29th 2024, 11:45 PM
    Response to Original message
    Advertisements [?]
     Top

    Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Religion/Theology Donate to DU

    Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
    Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


    Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

    Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

    About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

    Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

    © 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC