History challenge

I would like to propose a challenge. Can anyone show which of the examples below are just myth or are actually the truth?

• Osiris is said to bring his believers eternal life in heaven.
  
• Demeter is said to bring believers happiness in their eternal life.
  
• Jesus is said to bring believers eternal life in heaven.
  
  
• Romulus is described as the son of god, born of a virgin.
  
• Dionysus is described as the son of god, born of a virgin.
  
• Mithras is described as the son of god, born of a virgin
  
• Krishna is described as the son of god, born of a virgin.
  
• Horus is described as the son of god, born of a virgin.
  
• Jesus is described as the son of god, born of a virgin.
  
  
• Horus's foster father's name was Jo-Seph.
  
• Jesus's foster father's name was Joseph.
  
  
• Vespatian's spittle healed a blind man.
  
• Jesus's spittle healed a blind man.
  
  
• Apollonius of Tyana raised a girl from death.
  
• Jesus raised a girl from death.
  
• Horus raised a man named El Asarus from death.
  
• Jesus raised a man named Lazarus from death.
  
  
• After the birth of Horus, Herut tried to have Horus murdered.
  
• After the birth of Jesus, Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.
  
  
• Dionysus turned water into wine.
  
• Jesus turned water into wine.
  
  
• Horus was crucified between two thieves.
  
• Jesus was crucified between two thieves.
  
• Horus was buried in a tomb where he was resurrected and ascended into heaven.
  
• Jesus was buried in a tomb where he was resurrected and ascended into heaven.

............................
Jesus


.........

:popcorn:

Or do I have to get my own?

I'll split my :beer: with you.

most of which seem to be sourced from solid academic titles like "The Christ Conspiracy" and the writings of Albert Churchward (nutcase, or Masonic symbologist, take your pick). These writings, however, ( http://www.adam.com.au/bstett/BJesusandHorus74.htm http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ.htm ) don't seem to offer any primary or respectable secondary sources.

Unless you know better, of course.

Which is not to say that the Jesus story (and the old testament, too, for that matter) definitively isn't a hotchpotch of earlier myths and beliefs, just that the connections are not quite so simply made or shown, in my (relatively uninformed) opinion.

Osiris-Egyptian God, known as the great "god of the dead", assumed that he once possessed human form and lived upon earth, and that after his death he became a new life which he lived in a region over which he ruled as king. Believed to be willing to admit (to his Kingdom) all such as had lived a good and correct life upon earth, and had been buried with the appropriate ceremonies under the protection of certain amulets, and with proper recital of certain "divine words" and words of power.
Eternal life and happiness for his believers, yeah probably.

Demeter - The Greek earth goddess who brought forth the fruits of the earth, particularly the various grains. She taught mankind the art of sowing and ploughing so they could end their nomadic existence. Demeter was also the goddess of planned society. She was very popular with the rural population. As a fertility goddess she is sometimes identified with Rhea and Gaia. Eternal life and happiness stuff, don't think so but could be wrong. More of an earth bound God.

Romulus - Was tein brother to Remus, sons of Rhea Silvia and Mars. They were, together with their mother, cast into the Tiber. The god Tiberinus saved Rhea Silvia from drowning, and the brothers were miraculously rescued by a she-wolf. The wolf reared the twins together with her cubs underneath a fig tree (the 'ruminalus ficus'). After a few years they were found by the shepherd Faustulus, who took the brothers home and gave them to his wife Acca Larentia to raise. Romulus, to enlarge his empire, allowed exiles and refugees, homicides and runaway slaves to populate the area. The shortage of women he solved by stealing Sabine women whom he invited to a festival. After a few wars, the Sabines agreed to accept Romulus as their king. Upon his death he was taken to the heavens by his father Mars. He is later revered as the god Quirinus. Born of a virgin? Aren't all men?

Dionysus - (commonly known by his Roman name Bacchus), alleged to be a god who has two distinct origins. On the one hand, Dionysus was the god of wine, agriculture, and fertility of nature, who is also the patron god of the Greek stage. On the other hand, Dionysus also represents the outstanding features of mystery religions, such as those practiced at Eleusis: ecstasy, personal delivery from the daily world through physical or spiritual intoxication, and initiation into secret rites. Scholars have long suspected that the god known as Dionysus is in fact a fusion of a local Greek nature god, and another more potent god imported rather late in Greek pre-history from Phrygia (the central area of modern day Turkey) or Thrace. According to one myth, Dionysus is the son of the god Zeus and the mortal woman, Semele (daughter of Cadmus of Thebes). Born of a virgin? Sex with a virgin is at least as likely.

Mithras - Mithras is depicted springing from the living rock or from a tree; at Housesteads on Hadrian's Wall, however, the tradition is that he was born from the Cosmic Egg. Often depicted with the 12 signs of the Zodiac. Descended from a God? What else could make this up?

Krishna - Hindu traditions = the eighth or the ninth avatar of Vishnu. In Gaudiya Vaishnavism, he is seen as the Supreme Person (God) and thus the origin of all other incarnations. The literal Sanskrit meaning for 'Krishna' is black or dark, although there are also a large number of other meanings given to the name by devotees in the Bhakti traditions. Stories associated with Krishna may be found across the spectrum of Hindu philosophical and theological traditions. Reincarnated in airports in the 20th century.

Horus - The name "Horus" stands as a catchall for multiple deities, the most famous of whom is Harseisis (Heru-sa-Aset) or Horus-son-of-Isis (sometimes called Horus the Younger) who was conceived after the death of his father, Osiris, and who later avenged him. In all the Horus deities the traits of kingship, sky and solar symbology, and victory reoccur. As the prototype of the earthly king, there were as many Horus gods as there were rulers of Egypt, if not more. Multiple personality deity? Yeah,sure, why not.

Vespatian - Roman general,bacame emperor in 69 AD. Laid waste to Jerusalem I think. Bit of a spoil sport. General to Nero

Appolonius - During the time of Christ, Apollonius came to be the best known healer, prophet and religious authority in the known world. Probably raised a girl, boy or anything else from the dead. Lost talent. Pity about that.

Well that's about all I know....or took the time to look up.

and therefore the life of the crop and the life principle generally)was dragged into the Underworld (death and dirt) and subsequently rose to join her mother (herself as fertility and harvest) as she still, in a manner of speaking, does each year. The myth is very much one of death, resurrection and life eternal, as was the celebratory cult at Eleusis.

Bacchus/Dionysis was represented as crucified on portable amulets precisely as was Jesus. Bacchus is sometimes given a large phallus on these items.

Today, in the Christian world, the struggle for believers appears to rest in the emphasis they choose to place on either the principles of law or love. Not so the early Gods and Goddesses. Love appears symbolized even in the dipictions of crucifications.

that it is a difficult, if not impossible, challenge. I guess I must confess that my underlying point is: How are we suppose to believe any of the multitude of religious beliefs, especially since so many of them seem to be examples of the same general story but so intolerant of one another?

Its one of the three main problems I have with religions and why I am not religious. The other two main problems are the violence and disrespect to women, homosexuals and people of different beliefs. Not to mention the genocide of my ancestors by christians and the subsequent attempts of wiping out of our culture and language.

we respect women and ordain them. We consecrate gay bishops. But I would assume we smashed the hell out of any Indians who got in our way back in the day. I'm not proud of that.

I don't have anything against individuals who happen to be christian such as yourself. That is unless you happen to be somebody like Pat Robinson or something. :P I just have a problem with much of what is written in both the old and new testaments, (especially the old testament). And a problem with the history of violence associated with the Bible. I also don't care for the suppression of women and homosexuals that can be found in that book.

But again, that doesn't go without saying that I know of many "individuals" who happen to be christian who are respectful people. As I am sure you are.

and our treatment of indigenous people, here, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand was shameful.

But we're trying.

You kind of summed up my anti-theist position right there.

:toast:

:toast:



Yes, I don't mean any disrespect. But I could never be a part of a group who's history is what it is. And I could never agree with a book that has written within its pages which is written in the Bible.

It's not that I have a problem with personal belief. God. Vishnu. Allah. FSM. Whatever rubs your Buddha (pun intended). It's not my purpose to attack someone's personal belief. But as soon as that crosses into the realm of attacking others, it becomes a big hairy deal to me. The problem is, the texts of the major world religions are littered with justification for attacking others (physically and not), so most of my ire is typically directed at the various religious institutions and their foundational texts - not individuals (unless, like you said, they happen to be Pat Robertson).

of the assertions in the OP, it's not at all hard to show that many of them are misrepresentations. Krishna, for example, was Queen Devaki's eighth child; the lady's virginity was long gone before she and her husband conceived him. Mithras was born of a rock, though I suppose rocks are pretty much sexually inexperienced. (Senator Santorum might be able to think up some way to--well, you know--do it with a rock.) The various divine fathers all begot Romulus, Dionysos, Horus et al in the good old fashioned way.

Horus' foster father's name was Geb--kind of a reach from there to Yusuf, don't you think? There's no indication I could find in any Egyptian text that Horus was ever crucified, especially since crucifixion was introduced to Egypt by Alexander. And speaking of crucifixion, the "4th century" Orpheus/Bacchus amulet is generally considered a forgery.

You know, it never hurts to check out your material and your sources before posting.

The problem with all these hero figure gods (Jesus included) is that back in that time, theology was based on a system of microcosm / macrocosm. Christianity was no different, but modern christianity today doesn't include this in their story -- But it can be seen in much of the old christian art if you know what to look for.

Most people today when viewing other religions that have many parallels with christianity notice these differences but still don't understand the ancient philosophy of micro/macro layers of "as above/so below". So anyway, if you wish to research these ancient stories, it helps to understand this.

Anyway here's a little more about a few of the gods we both mentioned:

Horus, son of Osiris and Isis, was the "grandson" of Geb not his stepson. (1).....(2).

Anahita (or Nahid in Modern Persian), the "Mother" of Mithra, whose name means "unstained" or "immaculate", was an ancient Persian deity. Her cult was strongest in Western Iran, and had parallels with that of the Semitic Near Eastern "Queen of Heaven", deification of the planet Venus. The largest temple with a Mithraic connection is the Seleucid temple at Kangavar in western Iran (c. 200 BC), dedicated to "Anahita, the Immaculate Virgin Mother of the Lord Mithras". The rock on which you refer to is a metaphor for referring to Mithra being born out of the "cosmic egg".

Romulus is said to have been born of the virgin Rhea Silvia with his father being the God Mars. He had a twin brother Remus and the two of them were set adrift by Rhea Silvia when Amulius imprisoned her. They floated to safety where a sea-wolf suckled and tended them until the royal shepherd Faustulus and his wife, Acca Larentia, found and reared them. When they were grown, the brothers learned their true identity, killed Amulius, and restored Numitor to the throne. They then decided to establish a city of their own where they had been first rescued. When Romulus was chosen by an omen as the true founder of the new city, strife arose between the brothers, and Romulus killed Remus.

I would also like to bring up a little something about research. Remember the "Dead Sea Scrolls"? Have you heard anything from the church lately about it? Or should I say: Does the church make a big deal about the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Well.......there's a good reason why you hear very little to nothing from the church about this ancient document and This Book shows you why..

characters from the "universe" of Marvel Comics, right? ;-) ( http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/ )

Krishna as the product of a virgin birth.

The Roman Mithras is described as born from a rock. In the Persian version he is associated with the virgin goddess Anahita (meaning Spotless or Immaculate), sometimes as her son, sometimes as combined deity.

Horus was most certainly not conceived "in the good old-fashioned way" as you put it. Isis hovered over the dead body of Osiris and became pregnant. Isis carried a barred sistrum as a symbol of her mystically intact hymen.

You'll have to check with a specialist in ancient Greek art, (or possibly a dealer in antiquities), but small relics of Dionysus crucified are by no means uncommon. On vases and such, he is usually depicted as "hanging on a tree" rather like Jesus was said to have been in Acts, but on amulets Dionysus was sometimes represented as crucified in a manner quite like Christian iconography.

I'm afraid you've been the victim of some Christian apologist websites.

"One strand of Hindu religious writings does indeed describe Krishna as the product of a virgin birth."

One strand of Hindu religious writing that I'm aware of describes Krishna as being "implanted" in Devaki's womb rather than conceived through intercourse with her husband. But, while this qualifies as a miraculous birth, it is by no means a virgin birth. There were those seven previous children, after all. (If for some reason you believe that a woman can still be a virgin after seven children, you are overdue for a talk with the parent of your choice. And you probably shouldn't be posting on this board.)

"The Roman Mithras is described as born from a rock. In the Persian version he is associated with the virgin goddess Anahita (meaning Spotless or Immaculate), sometimes as her son, sometimes as combined deity."

And sometimes as her husband. I suppose that means he sleeps on the sofa?

"Horus was most certainly not conceived "in the good old-fashioned way" as you put it. Isis hovered over the dead body of Osiris and became pregnant. Isis carried a barred sistrum as a symbol of her mystically intact hymen."

Isis became pregnant with Horus after she reassembled her husband's scattered body and provided him with a prosthetic phallus--presumably not just for decoration. (But if she was a virgin at that point, Osiris must also have been sleeping on the sofa for a few thousand years. With Mithras? Hmmm. . .. Pair of lonely guys. . .. Now there's an untold story.)In Egyptian iconography, Isis and her sister/alter ego Nephthys are frequently shown hovering protectively over the osiriform mummies of pharaohs and other deceased dignitaries, including female dignitaries. As far as I'm aware, none of the deceased ever got the ladies pregnant as they hovered.

"You'll have to check with a specialist in ancient Greek art, (or possibly a dealer in antiquities), but small relics of Dionysus crucified are by no means uncommon. On vases and such, he is usually depicted as "hanging on a tree" rather like Jesus was said to have been in Acts, but on amulets Dionysus was sometimes represented as crucified in a manner quite like Christian iconography."

No need to go so far. Here's what Robert Price, author of Deconstructing Jesus has to say about the crucified Dionysus and the credulousness of those who cite it:

"Crucified Saviors

One of the most intriguing claims made repeatedly not only by Murdock but by her sources and others dependent upon them (e.g., Kersey Graves, The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviours), is that among the mythical predecessors of Jesus as a crucified god were the Buddha, the blue-skinned Krishna (whom these authors always like to spell “Christna” or some such, just to smuggle their theory in ahead of time), and Dionysus. Is there any basis to these claims, which Murdock just drops like a ton of bricks? Again, she does not explain where they come from, much less why no available book on Buddha, Krishna, or Dionysus contains a crucifixion account. (It is absurd to suggest that any book on Eastern religion written today would be victem to ecclesiastical censorship!) If we want to know, we must delve into her footnotes, and then into their footnotes. Let’s go.

Luckily, her principal sources, Higgins and T.W. Doane’s Bible Myths and their Parallels in Other Religions (originally published in 1882), do provide a bit of data. And the results are altogether more ambiguous than Murdock thinks. She seems to be impatient of scholarly niceties like evidence and inference. But we must not be. First, was the Buddha crucified? Not that I can see.

. . ..

As for Dionysus, it is clear he was widely venerated as having been done to death (as the infant Zagreus) and reborn/resurrected as Dionysus of Thebes, a passion reenacted in the frenzied dismemberment of animals by the Maenads, his female devotees. This is already an important Mystery Religion parallel to the Christian Passion. But was Dionysus crucified? Is there such a variant? Murdock says so and refers us to Barbara Walker’s fascinating Women’s Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets: “Hints of a hanging or crucifixion ceremony appeared in his sacrificial title Dendrites, ‘Young Man of the Tree’” (p. 237). For this, Walker refers us to Robert Graves, The Greek Myths. But there we find a quite different inference drawn from this Dionysian epithet: “One of his titles is Dendrites, ‘tree-youth’, and the Spring Festival, when the trees suddenly burst into leaf and the whole world is intoxicated with desire, celebrated his emancipation” (vol. 1, p. 107). But might Walker have taken the crucifixion idea from Graves’s The White Goddess, which she also often uses? Apparently not, but here Graves does tell us Dionysus was born of the fir tree (p. 102), and this would seem by itself enough to justify “tree-youth.” All I can guess is that Walker is thinking of the fact that Graves also identifies Dionysus with the Amanita muscaria mushroom, gathered from beneath the fir tree, and a more powerful intoxicant later replaced in the Dionysus cult by wine. Without telling us why (she always has some source), Walker lists Pentheus as one of the names of Dionysus. Who is Pentheus? The king of Thebes, he is both Dionysus’ enemy and his cousin in Euripedes’ Bacchae (and thus at least a Girardian double for Dionysus). He winds up spying from a perch in a tree on the frenzied Maenads, who spot him and rip his head off! We might see the beheading of Pentheus as symbolizing the harvesting (“decapitating”) of the mushroom. This would give us a connection between Dionysus (as Pentheus) and death on a tree. Add to this a third century CE amulet depicting “Bacchus <=Dionysus>,” by name, crucified, apparently on an anchor. The artifact is not pre-Christian, but the mytheme might be. All in all, it’s a pretty tenuous set of links. Probably not an adequate basis for pontificating that, like Jesus, Dionysus was crucified.

As I try to show in Deconstructing Jesus, the ancient Middle Eastern and Mediterranean parallels to the Passion and Resurrection of Jesus are much more strongly attested. It is a matter of urgency with me to draw distinctions between the two groups of alleged parallels, because the advocacy of the tenuous Buddha/Krishna/Dionysus crucifixion invites Christian apologists to tar the Tammuz/Adonis/Attis/Osiris parallels with the same brush. I don’t want it to be too easy for them."

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/rev_murdock.htm

The Murdock mentioned above is the perpetrator of something called The Christ Conspiracy,apparently written at about 8th. grade research paper level.

"I'm afraid you've been the victim of some Christian apologist websites."

:rofl:

(Read: Fair question there TG)

When they become truth is in the heart of the individual. The greatest theologian among us can not conclusively prove any of your example as the one "truth". Yet for an individual, any of them can be. Or none at all.

According to some versions of the story he was crucified, not chained to a rock.

Damn you! Damn you to hell! My whole life is a lie!

:sarcasm:

the concept of a "suffering / dieing savior god" has been around for thousands of years. Christianity was merely more of the same, one cult out of many, and was particularly crafted to compete with the cult of Mithra, which was very popular in the Roman world. For a good breakdown on all of this, check out www.jesusneverexisted.com :)

First off, it is important to remember that there was a lot more interaction (trade/commerce/war) among ancient cultures than is often portrayed in the Bible, or Hollywood, or even in history books. Books, stories and movies do tend to focus on one culture at a time. The exploitation of the less culturally or technologically advanced goes back to the beginning.

The Egyptions and the Mesopotamians both developed religions/cultures where the separation of church and state was pretty much an unimaginable concept. Most of that region has yet to grasp that concept to this day. Much of what they believed was known to (if not believed by) the Minoans, and through them, the Greeks.

Meanwhile, the people in Palestine which we have come to know as the early Israelites, had deep interactions with the Egyptions, Mesopotamians, Assyrians, etc, both in trade and in various wars and conquests. Palestine is one of those interesting 'crossroads' areas, which larger empires on all sides basically use as a route to each other. Lot of interaction there.

The Greeks believed two very important things. One, their gods literally walked the earth (at least the early ones believed this). Because of this they believed, two, that it was dangerous to be unkind to strangers. One never knew when one might face an actual god, and to displease that entity could be detrimental to one's health. Strangers were often invited into the hearth and home. :)

From this, it can be surmised that 'virgin' or 'divine' births were believed to be common. In fact, almost all of the Greek heroes (like Hercules/Heracles, Perseus, etc) were of mixed divine and human blood. Virgin birth, or divine impregnation was hardly a concept that just popped up in 1AD.

The Greeks, under the Macedonians, conquered the Middle East in the 4th Century (around 330-320 BC) under Alexander. The Romans conquered the Macedonians somewhere around the 3rd Century BC, and basically took over, except for the areas east of Palestine. Most of Mesopotamia reverted to the Persians. For religious purposes, the Roman culture was virtually indistinguishable from the Greek.

Frankly, it seems silly to me that anyone could believe that any religion that sprouted from this area could be thought of as unique. They've been inbreeding and swapping tales for about 5,000 years now. The secular history speaks for itself and is fairly well documented.

Anyone with the slightest knowledge of the history of that region should know better than to assume anything was insular or original. However, the hallmark of revealed religions is their ability to engage in denial of facts in the support of beliefs.

"There are no new things under the sun. No not one." Right? :)

n/t

but Batman, he's the real thing.

Sid

(attribution unknown, but I think I read it here somewhere)