Not all fundamentalists/evangelicals agree and are united

When we talk about the religious right on this board, we tend to lump them all together. We speak of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, et al as if they were united in ministry and had one group of followers. It just isn't the case. Conservative Christians come in many different stripes. You have your conservative mainstream Christians (Southern Baptists, Presbyterian Church of America and some PCUSA, conservative United Methodists, Lutherans (Missouri Synod), Church of Christ (independent), Nazarenes, etc. You then have your traditional Pentecostal denominations - Assemblies of God, Church of God (Cleveland, TN), and Four Square. There are also the various seeker-friendly non-denominational churches - these are often the mega-churches with huge memberships but no denominational affiliation. From there you get to your more extreme fundamentalist type churches - Independent Fundamentalist Baptist, Church of Christ (non instrumental), and on the fundamentalist pentecostal end of the spectrum - United Pentecostal Church, or Apostolic Churches(these are the ones where the women don't wear pants, makeup or cut their hair). Then there are the various charismatic churches (Vineyards, independent charismatic churches often identifiable by the words "Christian Fellowship" or some reference to the Holy Spirit in their names; the prosperity churches (World Changers, Cathedral of the Holy Spirit, Potter's House to name a few). Then you have your fringe sects that none of the above would consider orthodox Christians (Jehova's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists). Plus many others I can't think of. Besides these you have conservative elements in the traditional mainstream denominations that tend to be liberal, and conservative Catholics.

These groups do not agree theologically and some will even go so far as to say none but them are saved (The United Pentecostals believe this as do some Baptists). A large number of the above do not believe in ecumenicism and many believe Catholics are not Christians. This large and diverse group do not all listen to the same teachers. Many of the above believe Pat Robertson is heretical. Some denounce James Dobson because he is a psychologist which they consider secular humanism. Jerry Falwell denounces many in this group for their charismatic beliefs. What unites them is their beliefs that abortion and homosexuality are sins. Beyond that, they have little that unite them. Go to religion message boards and you will witness wars of words between followers of these various groups. Some of the nastiest attacks I have ever witnessed online have been between "Christians."

It is easy for us here to lump them all in one group and label them all as "fundies." But this is simply not the case. Technically, in order to be a fundamentalist, you have to believe in the inerancy of the fundamentals of the faith, but these groups cannot even agree as to what those fundamentals are. These groups used to never unite - until the Christian Coalition was formed giving people with conservative, right-wing, Christian beliefs a political voice. Now these groups come together to fight the "evils of liberalism." What was behind this uniting is the theory called theonomy. It is a belief in returning to biblical law, where the Bible becomes the law of the land. It is rooted in the belief that we are currently living in the kingdom of God and that we have to usher in Christ's return. Most people who are uniting under this conservative Christian banner do not know this. Most of the above groups do not believe in theonomy, and in fact many denounce it as heretical.

If we want to fight this movement, we have to expose it. Most Christians are extremely ignorant of the Bible they claim to know and love. Most have no understanding of theology. Most just believe what they have been taught is right. If we want to fight this push for theocracy, we have to get out there and show what it really is, which means not bashing individuals, or worse, telling people they are nuts, but honestly taking the Bible and showing these folks the errors in what the leaders of this movement are pushing towards. That is the only way to fight this.

Thanks for your post. I can't imagine what its like to be in the 23% of the membership of these churches who voted for Kerry.

I have been a Christian for over 30 years and made the evolution from being a conservative to a liberal Christian. The things that changed me were seeing how the belief system does not work very well in real life, getting an education, and seeing my best friend get into a cult. The conservative religious beliefs are very authoritarian and instill a great deal of fear in people, as well as a certain contempt for the problems of this world. A more liberal approach to Christianity offers hope and encourages people to take responsibility for the injustice in society. So much like the choice made on November 2 in this country, between living in fear or living in hope for the future...

The conservatives have characterized themselves as an oppressed minority and done things like establish there own television and radio stations. Liberal churches would never even consider doing something like this as they don't feel the need to control their membership and its exposure to information. That makes the intelligent liberal Christian voice a lot less visible to society- actually its almost invisible. But there are some liberal, socially responsible Christian groups and voices out there, and their message needs to be promoted so that fundies can understand there is another way of being Christian which does not involve fear and putting aside one's one economic interests for the sake of so-called moral values.

The leaders in this movement do use fear to control the masses, just like the present administration uses fear to control the populace. Fear has always been the tool of choice by those seeking power to gain influenece. Think of Hitler - fear was his main tool. He used fear of the Jews to convince people to go along with or at least ignore his racists policies. From the Salem witch hunts to the Spanish Inquisition to the current war on terrorism, fear is the underlying driving force. Unfortunately it is also the underlying force of many people's faith. Fear of death, fear of hell, fear of not fitting in - all these add up.

That sure has been going on for a looooong time!

"Scaring people out of hell" has been the basis for many Christian churches in the U.S. at least since the Puritans came here. It is the way that some people enter into Christianity, and it is fortunate that not everyone who does that remains at that stage of thinking. The sad thing is that most people do not mature intellectually or emotionally past that stage, and they think that's what Christianity is all about.

Hardly anyone within U.S. Christianity, including some mainline churchgoers, has noticed that when Jesus did speak of hell it had a connection with how "the least of these" are treated. I'm thinking mostly of The Last Judgment in Matthew 25, and of the parable of The Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. I've never heard either of these passages referenced by right wing Christians, either inside or outside of the pulpit.

Anyway, thanks Doni for your comprehensive treatment of this subject, because the Protestant Church landscape in America is much more complex than it is portrayed to the general public (sounds like a familiar media theme, doesn't it?). Having grown up within mainline Christianity, I can attest to the ideological and theological diversity even within local churches.

No wonder they are so quiet in speaking out against the madness going on in our present government...

Back to your main point - just as Michael Moore pointed out in F911, this administration is masterful at using fear to manipulate the masses.

(BTW, sorry I haven't kept in touch since we went to see that movie, but I'll get back with you soon!)

Several of the churches here do "Tribulation Trails" where they literally try to scare people into accepting Jesus. It makes me want to vomit! When in the Bible did Jesus EVER do anything to scare someone into following him? It is the religious equivalent to the "law and order" stage of moral development - doing something simply out of fear of the repercussions. Someone who is so willing to act in fear would be one to change their views quickly if someone presented them with something that scared them more. I find it ironic that those who hold to the "Left Behind" theory of eschatology are the most likely to use fear to convert people. While in the book, fear was used to turn people away from the faith. HELLO! How many of these people who convert out of fear would be willing to die for their beliefs? Not many is my guess, yet according to the beliefs of those who believe in a literal 7 year tribulation, that would be exactly what was expected of believers who were left behind! It boggles the mind!

Please do keep in touch! We need to try to get together over the holidays - get Vetwife and others to join us. Once we're finished with Nutcracker (my daughter is in a professional company) I will have my life back. Ugh, now I am off to rehearsal! BYe

they're called? Never been to one, but have heard of them (barf).

I agree with you totally:
When in the Bible did Jesus EVER do anything to scare someone into following him? It is the religious equivalent to the "law and order" stage of moral development - doing something simply out of fear of the repercussions.

When did you study about moral development? Familiar with Kohlberg? Heard of James Fowler's stages of religious thinking (I can't think of the exact term?) Did you know he's at Emory? Anyway, I think the stages of Moral Development are a key to all of the RW religious mania that has been building up for decades. I read a great book on Kohlberg's theory which tied that in with religious conversion, called "I'm Saved, You're Saved...Maybe" and it was right on target, I thought. It's out of print now but I have an extra copy if you'd like to read it.

Yes - I think we're overdue for some conversation - by all means with Vetwife too - let's do that when school's out in Dec. Happy Thanksgiving!

at Georgia State when I briefly went back to get my masters in Educational Psychology. That was interupted by my getting pregnant with back-to-back pregnancies. When I did go back, I went in middle grades education, so I wouldn't have to go back to GA State. I am not familiar with Fowler, I will have to look into that. I'd love to borrow that book from you. I also have a couple you would probably enjoy. We can do a book swap when we get together.

BTW - how's the weather up your way? I think I drove on the fringes of a tornado this morning taking my daughter to rehearsal. Trees down everywhere. We are one of the lucky few who still has power.

And let's DO have a book swap. I could probably write up a short version of the "I'm Saved" book to post on DU, and I could actually do that in my sleep since I've read it so many times. I think people could relate!

Glad you made it back with the bad weather. I thought we were going to all wash away in a Great Flood up on the north side a couple of hours ago. I've NEVER heard such a hard rain; luckily I didn't have to go anywhere.

Till later!

I believe that some of these sects don't even vote (Jehovah's Witnesses don't, at least around here-my husband works on their cars). The problem with the ones that do is that they are one or two issue voters-they will vote for anyone as long as they are against abortion in any form and hate gays. I have a friend who is handicapped and who is very right to life (hey, she was adopted by right to life parents, so at least I can understand a little bit why she's the way she is), and voted for a state candidate whose political position was to take away state social services that she depeneded on to live, but she voted for him anyway, because he was against abortion. I fear that as long as we have great numbers of people like my friend, they will continue to vote against their own self interest to follow anyone who meets their narrow criterea. And I can't figure out a way to get them to change.

I've been guilty of lumping all in the religious right together. Your post taught me a lot.