The President’s leadership has saved me

I do not say this lightly because it took me awhile…a lot of searching and thinking. Looking into my soul…praying…maybe I am just a slow learner but I have concluded that I need to thank our President. After almost 6 years in office….I have finally found myself…and my faith…and I owe it all to George W. Bush. Thank you President Bush!!

You see, our president as an avowed and self described “born again” Christian has been living out a leadership role for all of us…in how to live our lives. He has been able to show us that through faith and actions one can not only focus on their own individual being but also impact the larger community in which we live. Certainly a Christian virtue, since community is the focus of the historic Christian faith. It has taken all of this time for me to be able to face up to my own shortcomings as a Christian…as I watch and see our President act out his beliefs.

Many, who voted for the GW Bush either once or twice, did so because they were sold on the notion that here was a God fearing Christian. Bush was a man who believed and lived according to some deep seated principles of Christianity. Moral and upstanding....a man converted as an adult....a reborn...twice born Evangelical. For me, I give folks who see the light later in life credit when they change their life for the better and then adhere to their beliefs. Me, I was born only once.

Was this another personal shortcoming for me? I don’t think so, because for me once was enough.

What is it anyway that causes someone to be "reborn"? Didn't they get the message the first time? Maybe it is just me. I was brought up in an Evangelical family and church. Maybe I paid attention during services and Sunday school. I got the message the first time. Christian principles are all about love and forgiveness… giving to others in need…adding to the community by assisting...turning the other cheek....making sure you don't cast stones or point out the "sliver" in the other person's eye. Most of all you need to ask for forgiveness and avoid the show of pride and selfishness.

I learned about the teachings of Christ, once again there I was paying attention during Bible Study. As the Bush administration “got rolling” and their agendas for the economy and foreign policy became clear, I started to lose it in my faith. I was not seeing what I thought I should be seeing from a true Christian. How could a true Christian be formulating policies and pushing legislation that the Bush administration was pursuing? How could a true Christian use military might of the United States with such abandon and disregard?

Here I was trying to make sense of it all. To be honest, I did not remember anything in my Evangelical up bringing about: corporations being sacred, starting wars by attacking independent nations, turning away from poverty, deficit spending, bigotry, killing innocent civilians and hatred of others just because they speak a different language or interpret their holy writings differently. In fact most of what I remember is the opposite of all of that. I was so confused…..So I started to reacquaint myself with the scripture and writings about what it means to be a Christian.

You can probably guess what I found…I really did remember what it meant to be a Christian from my initial birth. One birth for me was in fact enough…I did not need some charismatic speaker to tell me to rejoin the faith, be born again and follow me. Christ had already said all of that. And I am not looking for a new “Christ”.

If you decide to reacquaint yourself with what it means to be a Christian…or you need to find out for the first time what it is all about….you will see how far the Bush Administration and the neo-con right wing has strayed from Christian teachings and the Gospel. Of course you might be a quicker learner than me…you probably know all this stuff already.

For my revelation, I once again say, “Thank You” George W. Bush, for showing me through your actions and inactions what it means to NOT be a true Christian in these trying times. You are the antithesis of what it means to be a Christian leader. Your complete and utter disregard for the economic stability of all Americans has put a heavy burden to be sure on generations to come. Your leadership has put the US and our allies and indeed the entire world in peril. Understanding this has I believe saved me and my faith…For you, I can not be so positive.



For those who care: Here are a couple of books in case anyone is looking for some reference material:

God's Politics......Jim Wallis; Written by an Evangelical religious leader. This book compares and contrasts the political perspective of the Bible with what we see from the Bush Administration. It is eye opening.
How the Republican's Stole Christmas…Bill Press; This book highlights how religion has recently been politicized.
The Call to Conversion…another Jim Wallis book. Written originally in 1981 but updated in 2005 because of the current world crisis of faith.

The best reference might be: The Bible, multiple authors and versions, all documenting the Word of God. If you are a literalist when it comes to the bible…reject the notion of picking and choosing your passages to believe. If you need help in interpreting the passages, there are thousands of reference books that can help. Resist the temptation to just use one person’s view look at multiple interpretations so you get the full picture.

If you would like to reference a very good website... http://www.sojo.net ...this is the home site of The Sojourners, a Christian Evangelical organization founded by Jim Wallis.



BrewAz

to be a "true Christian." If your basic understanding of the text differs (and how could it not, with the conflicting and confusing messages contained in the bible), how is one Christian at all justified in declaring others NOT to be Christians? Maybe it's you reading the bible incorrectly?

It could be argued, you know, that you are doing your own picking & choosing when it comes to which parts of the bible to take literally.

Jim Wallis makes me nervous. He's the type of liberal believer who gives me the impression that he'd be A-OK with a theocracy, as long as it's a liberal one.

I've heard of Jim Wallis that he'd be okay with a theocracy as long as it was a center-left theocracy. I haven't read any of his writings, so maybe others can speak to that.

But that's my concern every time someone plays the "True Christians are liberal" card like you have. I do not want my rights to hinge on the outcome of a theological debate over which of the Christian God's supposed words are literal and which are allegorical. Government works best when it is secular, not when it is based on True Religion, as harmless and endearing as a particular flavor of True Religion might be.

Secular government is the only way to ensure religious freedom and freedom in general.

“God’s Politics” sounds extremely intriguing. But a current combination of a busy schedule and a huge backlog of items to read will prevent me from getting into it. Anyone care to get into a little bit more detail on how that book breaks down the Bush agenda from a Christian standpoint.

But's its just intellectual curiousity. I agree with Bill McBlueState......government policy should be kept separate from theological interpretations

The book is very good and really rips open the "politicizing" of religion from both the right and left.

Here is a website that has an interview with Jim Wallis from back in 2005 when the book came out:

http://www.motherjones.com/news/qa/2005/03/gods_politics_jim_wallis.html

You might want to check it out as to his thinking and a quick overview of the ideas in the book..

BrewAz

Let me be clear...I am talking about me....if it applies to you, ok.

I do not think I said, nor am I saying that true Christianity, is "Liberal". I am aware that some have said that. I do not pretend to be a theologian, but I do believe that when you try to mix religion with public policy and "politics"...it just causes social as well as policy problems. Look at where we are over the last 5+years in the US...and the Middle East for centuries.

I will say that you do not need to do a lot of "interpreting" to see that there is a difference between: the Christian principle of caring for the poor, and what the Bushies have done to the economy for the poorest Americans; or the Christian principles that preach peace and attacking Iraq or abdicating a peacemaker role in the middle east; or the Christian idea of giving of yourself for the betterment of the community and making corporations and the richest 2% of Americans richer on the backs of the rest of us. To name only a few items....

Whether you see these as "right" or "wrong" is up to you I guess...but my faith makes it pretty clear where I stand on the issues.

As for Jim Wallis...he is one voice...a solid one to be sure...but one voice. To make sense out of any religious issues, I think you need to find a common ground that is steeped in the principles you follow and have faith. The "gotcha" with Bush is that if you say you are Christian...you could at least know and understand the basic teachings of Christ and pretend to follow them rather than totally disregard them except for photo ops and sound bites.

BrewAz

list of eye-openers, and there's another one, "Who Wrote the Bible"

You might say, "Love your neighbor." OK, so what does it mean to love your neighbor? Do you give money to whoever asks for it, and never expect it back, as it says in the bible? What if you have a deadbeat relative who lives with you and won't go find a job, even though s/he is perfectly capable? Should you show "tough love" to get them out on their own? Shouldn't we put restrictions on welfare, then, to follow this "tough love" concept?

Do you understand the difficulties?

With questions like..."Who wrote the Bible?" and "What are the basic teachings of Christ?"...You make we think you are either not Christians or this is some kind of test I need to pass.

In either case...at the end of my original post, I have 4 book references...the last one being the Bible.

There are a number of versions...all with multiple authors...all purporting to be transcribing the Word of God. Read that: directly from God. The history of the written bible can be found in any library, or just "google", Bible. Pick an interpretation (or 2) and if you can read Greek...you may be closest to the original written words...if you can find them. Some of the best historic documents on the bible can be found in the archives of the original Christian Church, at the Vatican. I doubt you can get to them.

As to Christ's teachings... not to offend anyone but if you have to ask...maybe you didn't pay good enough attention in Sunday School. Once again...research can help clarify it for you. In my original post, I hit some of the high points. Read Christ's "Sermon on the Mount" for the best synopsis. (Matthew 5-7; Luke 6)

BrewAz

People can look at the same bible you do, even the same VERSE you do, and come up with a different interpretation. You didn't address my point about what it means to love one's neighbor. The left wing feels this is a call to help the needy with welfare & government spending. The right wing focuses more on "the lord helps those who help themselves." How can you say definitively that one site is correct, and the other is wrong?

"Maybe (I) didn't pay good enough attention in Sunday School"? You're just digging yourself in deeper, aren't you? Rather than address legitimate criticism and questions, you're launching into accusations and attacks on those posing the questions.

You think it's as simple as pointing to the sermon on the mount? OK, let's try it.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:1-7:27;&version=31;

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

What does it mean to be poor in spirit? If someone is not poor in spirit, are they going to hell?

Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

The meek? The earth? I thought the faithful would all end up in heaven! Why does it matter who gets left with the earth?

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.

Our country, during WW2, brought about peace, but in order to do so, killed millions. Does that fit with this verse? Should the USA have tried peaceful diplomacy longer?

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

Can't the right wing point to this verse and claim it applies to YOU, because you're insulting them by saying they're not true Christians?

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Some interpret this as meaning Jesus claimed the OT law is still in full effect. No shellfish, no pork products, death to homosexuals, cover up the women, shun them when they're menstruating, etc. Are they wrong? Why?

But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Wouldn't that be you? You're in danger of the fire of hell, because you're telling Bush Christians that they're fools. Many liberal Christians don't even believe in hell, yet right here Jesus mentions it. Are those Christians wrong? Is hell real?

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Have you ever masturbated? If so, you must have thought lustfully of someone. Your hand then caused you to sin. Have you cut it off yet?

But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

Lots of people, even "good" Christians, divorce for reasons other than marital infidelity. Are they all adulterers, as Jesus specifically says?

There's more - lots more - I can point out, but do you care to address some of the above?

Are you a "literalist" or what? You have managed to make the "Beatitudes" look all "hellish and damnationish"...rather than blessings.

I agree that interpretation of words (and by the way Religion) is a personal thing...I prefer to follow the grace and faith based point of view myself.

With the words you reference, you can't forget, this is Jesus talking to his disciples and defining, characterizing if you will a new age of enlightenment never before seen in the world. He is describing the scenes he sees ...and how following His Word will change it all. It is about context....and it is all about "God's Kingdom" as opposed to the earthly world view point.

Hence the issue with most literal interpretations....the context today is different. The goal should be the same...and the ideal as stated in Christ's words should be the path. Most all of us fail to match the goal.

As to your interpretation of the "left wing" or the "rightwing"...that is up to you. As I see it with my faith, the current administration has strayed WAY OUT OF BOUNDS from a Christian way of thinking (regardless of how you interpret Christ's words)...and the so called neo-con's (on the right)are doing a dis-service to the country and Christianity.

BrewAz

"Are you a "literalist" or what?"

Thats his point. Why do you take some things literally, and not others? Why do you get to decide what is right? What gives you the right to call other people false christians or fools? If your not going to take the sermon on the mount literally, then why take ANYTHING literally? Why not just toss the whole fucking bible in the garbage or is the dustbin with the rest of the fiction you read?

What is the "christian way of thinking"? As far as I've seen, the christian way IS judging others while setting your sect/beliefs as a bar that other people have to jump over to be "true christians".

Let me say this to you straight. You may be a better person that the repugs. You may be a whole lot less evil than they are. But you are not a more true christian or better christian than they are so quit hyping your religion up as a good religion. Christian is not synonymous with Good Person. It is not synonymous with polite person. It is not synonymous with virtuous person, enlightened person, or intelligent person. It is also not, conversly, synonymous with bad person, or dumb person. It is nothing but a label identifying you as someone who believes/worships Christ.

time to take a breath...calm down a bit.

As for the issue of the literal translation of the Bible...not my cup of tea. The writers and transcribers were too far removed from the actual happenings....and politics over the years changed much of what was transcribed. As for interpreting the Word..that is what Churches are for...and sunday school. Paying attention helps us frame our life....which is what I have done...and have encouraged my kids and family to do. The reference to the "Sermon on the Mount" was to give a better synopsis of the teachings of Christ than I did...which it does.

I am far from the person who could or would pontificate enough to say or assume that I or either one of you or anyone on the DU is: a good person; a polite person, a virtuous person, and enlightened person or an intelligent person; a bad person or a dumb person....BUT as I stated earlier (3 times I think)my personal faith allows me to point out that our country has been led astray by the current administration under the guise of "Christian values and virtue"....when in reality the results to date are far from the teachings of the founder of the Evangelical Christian church I am a part of.

You can debate it as much as you want...you may want to evaluate it as good or bad....right wing or left wing...I am just looking at the results....and I do not like what I see!!

BrewAz

I won't elaborate on the ins and outs of Biblical interpretation at this point. Others have done well enough with that already. I did note a curious statement in your post however:


BUT as I stated earlier (3 times I think)my personal faith allows me to point out that our country has been led astray by the current administration under the guise of "Christian values and virtue"



I figured that out long ago and I have no faith. There are many others here on DU (and no doubt in the US as a whole) who ascertained the same thing while being of a faith other than Christianity, or of no faith at all. One does not need to be of a particular religion to discern dishonesty and malice.

and I welcome you to DU. I understand the fact that you don't much like the criminals in the white house. Neither do I. We have that in common.

However, I'm tired of this almost pathological need for a lot of the liberal christians to separate themselvs from Bush and his cronies based on religion. Its hypocritical and fallacious. If you need to separate yourselves from them, all you need to do is be a decent person. Live not "like a true christian", but instead like a decent, fair person. Call them criminals, call them assholes, but don't call them false christians. Because they are no more "false" christians than any of the liberals here.

If they aren't christians, what are they? Are they godless? Just because they are bad people, they must be atheists, right? Cuz no real christian would ever steal from somebody else. Thats what godless people like me do, right?

So look, I agree with you. And I am your ally, believe it or not. But I don't want any god talk in my politics. A country ruled by liberal christianity is just as sick and pathological in my opinion as any other religious theocracy.

Stated perfectly, Evoman.

They are not "trick" questions, they don't have any sort of right or wrong answers. And that's the point - to get you to understand that it's not always cut-and-dried just who is following or even interpreting the bible correctly. There can be bad people who are Christians, and good people who are Christians, and you're going to have to accept that instead of copping a holier-than-thou attitude, making judgments about others (didn't Jesus warn against that?).

Let's start simple: Does hell exist?

Well. lets see...for Evoman: I don't feel attacked nor do I see myself as a "liberal left wing christian"...and I agree with what you said.

For Trotsky...Sorry I do not feel I can answer your questions. The way I see it, if you were a Catholic or Protestant Christian, you would not need to ask the questions; If you were a twice born, born again Christian or Muslim you wouldn't care what I thought; Buddhist, Hindu or Tao you would not have joined the discussion....If you were Jewish you would understand what I said and just disagree; If you were agnostic you would think it all irrelevant.

I do not know if you see yourself as an atheist or not...but if you do, all you would continue to have are questions like: How could you, How would you, Who did, When did and Where is....

All of which leads to a lot of circular argumentative discussion. AS a working stiff, I just don;t have that kind of time.

Sorry.

BrewAz

Does hell exist? Yes or no.

And what does my religious affiliation (or lack thereof) have to do with it? All stripes of Christians have theological differences, and they ask each other these types of questions (and more) to flesh out their differences.

I really don't understand your attitude in this thread. You don't like the questions you're being asked, so you speculate as to people's motives, or whether they are even justified in asking them.

This is just a guess, but right now, I'd say your behavior would be classfied by certain other liberal Christians as decidedly NON-Christian.

"The way I see it, if you were a Catholic or Protestant Christian, you would not need to ask the questions"

That is not true at all. Religious people on this forum are always asking each other these type of questions. There are christians here who believe in hell, and there are those who do not. Each of them will tell you why they believe or don't believe something, and each answer is unique and interesting.

And thats the point. Even the christians on the SAME SIDE can't agree on an interpretation of the bible. And that completely understandable, given the vagueness and wording of the mostly confusing bible. But to accuse other christians of somehow "being false christians" and accusing them of picking and choosing while your doing the same thing bothers me. Its hypocritical and unworthy of you.

Now, with that point aside (I won't respond to it again..I'm sure you understand where I'm coming from here), Trotsky asked you a question. It was not snarky in the least. And yes, once you answered it, he would probably follow it up with other questions. But I'm thinking...maybe these are questions you should be asking yourself. Rexamining your concepts and beliefs every now and then is a good idea. I do it constantly (and let me tell you, it ain't easy).

Looks like it is a good thing I left work early today.

I am a bit intrigued...so much so that I had to go and read my original post again in its entirety...because with all the points that I make my intention (proved again when I read through the post) was to convey my personal view and learnings. I did not attempt to say others needed to agree in fact made a point of suggesting that others might want to research...to see if the same conclusion would result.

Yet the issue(s) that are brought up here are about me and my potentially self delusional view of Christianity. It has been acknowledged that religion ia a very personal interpretation of the chosen Word....but still I am asked to justify myself. A bit strange I would say.

So I guess I should apologize for my rash responses earlier...as there appear to be some unwritten "code" here at the R/L forum (which BTW I have not found elsewhere) about explaining/justifying/defending/restating yourself.

So...since the question asked was put to me as a "simple question"....I will answer it in as simple a way as I can: yes.

Feel free to ask more...I will do my best to respond time permitting.

BrewAz

You imply that George Bush is not a true Christian. I wonder who is in charge of deciding who the true Christians are? Does that "Judge not lest Ye be judged" come into play here?

Do you believe that George Bush believes that you are a true Christian?

Just curious.

What I said was that the actions exhibited by Bush (and I will add the administration) and the results of those actions are not consistent with and indeed diametrically opposed to the true Christian principles taught by Christ....in any measure. I highlighted some in the original post...probably could have gone further.

There is a huge difference between what you say...or purport to be...and the actions you take. It is the actions and the results of those actions that are the true measure of the person.

I do not much care if George Bush believes I am a Christian or not...he is not the one making the final decision....so, it is irrelevant.

Thanks for being curious....not enough of us are on the important matters.

BrewAz

You said: "...showing me through your actions and inactions what it means to NOT be a true Christian in these trying times."

I want to know who gets to decide what it means to be a true Christian or not to be a true Christian. A casual reading of your post indicates the you are the judge of "true" or "not true" Christians. And you did not explain how this jives with Jesus' admonition not to judge others.

You said that George Bush doesn't get to make the final decision about your Christianity, but you seem to have made the final decision about his Christianity. Now I am more confused than before.

a "final decision" on any ones personal views of their own "Christianity"...but in the Bush case, the actions taken and the results are a far throw from any of the teachings of the Christ I studied.

Saying that, I also make the points that the lessons were my personal lessons...and I make no judgment (as some apparently think I did)...on Bush...other than politically...and the fact that none of what we "see" from him fits the teachings of Christ.

BrewAz

"the teachings of Christ"

You didn't bother reading anything on this thread, did you?

or in believing that George Bush is a bad man. He is a bad man.


"Yet the issue(s) that are brought up here are about me and my potentially self delusional view of Christianity. It has been acknowledged that religion ia a very personal interpretation of the chosen Word....but still I am asked to justify myself. A bit strange I would say."

Most people here agree with your politics, but this forum is about religion. It is a discussion forum, not an echo chamber.You are the one who felt it necessary to start judging the religion of other people. Why can I not do the same thing? In fact, I'm being a whole lot less judgemental, because I'm not sitting here telling people that they aren't Christian enough. If you love christ (and believe me, conservative christians do), than call yourselve christian.

"So I guess I should apologize for my rash responses earlier...as there appear to be some unwritten "code" here at the R/L forum (which BTW I have not found elsewhere) about explaining/justifying/defending/restating yourself"

Lol...thats what you do in EVERY FORUM. You put something down, you defend it. Have you been to any other forum on DU! What do you want? You want us all to agree with you? Or do you want to have a discussion?

Preface: I'm not saying this is right or wrong, and I'm not saying this is what I believe.

I have a Baptist friend (there are all different kinds of Baptists, and some are quite sane--my mom was one of them) who says that everyone who professes Jesus as their savior will end up in heaven, where they will be rewarded according to how their lives demonstrated the "fruits of the spirit." By my calculations, if in fact dumbya does make it to heaven (and that is something only God knows), judging by his public actions he will not be president of anything. My guess is that since he is scared of horses he will probably be doing something related to shoveling horse shit out of a stall with the horse still there. And he wouldn't have his pretty presidential boots, he would have cheap Wal-Mart fake Birks made in China so the horsies can just mash his little toes all to pieces.

we can count on that happening?

BTW...I like the thinking: "...rewarded to how the life demonstrates the fruits of the spirit". My whole point is that the "fruits" of this Bush administration are all turning out rotten. Cleaning horse stalls may be to much of a reward.

BrewAz

At least the worst I could post in a public forum. He probably wouldn't like it much. I mean, actual WORK. And big skeery animals.

It sounds like Hell. :)

Please explain why you ever thought he might be a decent person, much less what some people might call a true Christian, and I'm assuming you thought he was sincere because you said you became confused. Then tell me how or in what way he saved you and your faith.

as I tend to take folks at their word...until they prove otherwise. Kind of my own personal "innocent until proven guilty" policy. In this case...when an individual sets the standard (a high one in my mind)of proclaiming they are a "Christian", I anticipate actions to match the words. With Bush...never happened.

The confusion set in as I tried to reconcile the words with the results...and none of it jived. The "epiphany" for me was the realization that their was no consistency of word and action for Nush...and that the words were just that. All of which caused me to refocus on my personal religion and the words I wrote in the initial post.

BrewAz

If you hold christians to a "higher" standard than non-christians, you must live in a permanent state of disappointment.

I'm glad I'm not a religious bigot, to me the label christian just specifies which god you believe in and I don't think you're any better or any worse than non-christians.

that I never said "better than/higher" w/r to Christian...nor did I say I evaluated it right or wrong/good or bad. All I said was that when someone labels themselves, it puts some parameters around my expectations. I do the same whenever I encounter someone who "self labels" themself....whetever the label. Maybe a shortcoming, I have many, but none the less it is a tendency I have.

BrewAz

"believes that Jesus was the son of god and died for our sins." I think that's roughly all one can know about someone who claims to be a Christian, not that they're a decent person or anything else.

Your standard for christians is higher than that of non.

Like I said, I feel sorry for people who think they're morally superior to others because their particular deity supposedly told them so.

It must be hell to see your fellow christians sinning their asses off day in and day out, many/most of them thinking they're better than the rest of us, no doubt.

I have a label for people like that too, except mine starts with an "h".

I should have chosen different words. In this case the standards I see are very well defined and narrow in what can and should be the actions taken....and do in fact center on what some in this thread have called the acts of a caring, giving and supportive to others individual. I too have seen those who think/say they are better but act in a very different (self serving) manner...and the hypocrisy shows them for what they are.

BrewAz

But you can understand why non-christians take offense when we read something like that.

I have no problem with your personal beliefs, or those of anyone else, I just hate religious intolerance and unfortunately, the world is full of it right now.

And you used it with negative connotations to apply to people with whom you disagree. But you never explained how one decides what "true Christian" means and who gets to be true and who has to be false and who gets to decide.

If being non-judgmental makes you a true Christian, are you on the right path?

Instead of - or, if you prefer, while - refocusing your personal religion, try doing a rethink on that thing where you take folks at their word. Because that'll bring you more trouble than you could ever imagine. Nush (?) has provided you an opportunity to practice at a relatively safe distance, with someone who isn't focusing his efforts on screwing you personally and wrecking your individual life.

Me, I had the opposite experience where the personal screwage and individual life wrecking comes first. It wasn't about religion, but my particular religious upbringing played into it. And I was all, "Damn! I didn't know people like this exist." Then I looked at Bush and went, "Hey, there's another one."

Stop assuming that others are playing by the same set of rules as you are, because the world's full of people who don't have the advantages of wealth and connections, who will lie their asses off and go to unbelievable lengths to take away whatever you've managed to accumulate - no matter how small - and not even give it a second thought, much less feel sorry about it. There are even some who would do it purely to hurt you, or even just to amuse themselves. Either way, you're left to clean up the mess and learn the lesson.

It's also pretty silly, in my learned opinion, to credit someone you've never met, who doesn't give a rat's ass about you and wouldn't give you the time of day unless you had your checkbook out and were prepared to write him a check for a couple grand, with saving you. I sure as hell don't credit the person who, um, shall we say, provided me an opportunity to improve my critical thinking skills, with anything but being a scumbag.

So you want them to go around claiming such wrong things as "slavery is okay" and "rabbits have cloven hooves and chew cud"?

Why would anyone WANT more idiots (aka biblical literalists, who are idiots for believing the examples I outlined above and many many more, disregarding reality to do so) parading around, fucking with our lives?

I wasn't paying attention, obviously.

He actually had a HUGE impact on my spiritual life. I had been active in the church in the early 1980s after being raised by an atheist and a nonpracticing Baptist, having found religion in my 20's. I "backslid," as the churchy people say, and was attempting to regain the happiness I had when I first went through that "born again" experience.

Stupid me. At least I didn't vote for * because I didn't vote at all in that first election. I honestly didn't know the differences between chimpy and Al Gore. Like I said, stupid, stupid me.

I learned a lot from *.
- trust no one.
- check the facts.
- what you DO is a hell of a lot more important than what you say.
- there is some good stuff in the Bible: Like what Jesus said about the Pharisees.
- did I mention trust no one?

People who are honest, compassionate, humble, good Christians, or whatever adjectives you happen to find desirable don't need to announce it up front and then tell you about it again and again. It shows through their actions. They have a track record, which is where checking the facts comes in.

I wouldn't say trust no one, but I immediately distrust anyone who says he or she is this, that, or the other thing that most people value or admire. More often than not, it translates to "I'm trying to fool you," or "I've observed that you have a particular set of desires and beliefs or lack of experience that I intend to take advantage of," and the truth is more like the exact opposite of whatever they said.

Best case, it translates to "I am insecure."

Thanks. I have seen this behavior (even in members of my extended family)in many who purport to be "born again"....I also see MUCH of what appears to be narciscism...in those who label themselves. Thanks again for the input.

BrewAz