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Anybody listen to Fresh Air today? Show about Apostle Paul

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doni_georgia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:16 PM
Original message
Anybody listen to Fresh Air today? Show about Apostle Paul
Terry Gross had John Dominic Crossan on. He is the author of several books about the historical Jesus, and he was on about his latest book about the historic Paul. It was a very good show. Here's a link if anyone is interested. Also, has anyone read any of Crossan's books?
http://www.npr.org/programs/fa/
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flowomo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. loved his accent!
and his discussion of prayer. Not a religious person myself, but I enjoyed that show.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. Great link - I love the ability to stream the show at any time!
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 08:40 PM by papau
3 different Pauls -

??


interesting...

after listening to it I found I really like/agree with him.
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doni_georgia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I read one of his earlier books and enjoyed it
I didn't realize until after I got home today that I was listening to the author of The Historical Jesus. I found his interpretations of what happened in this election and what is happening today in America to be very interesting. I look forward to reading this book. I think I will buy it Friday.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. Crossan was part of some project
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 09:35 PM by Uncle_Ho_Ho
To find out who the historical Jesus was. One of books the "Five Gospels" did a realy good job of weeding out what stuff Jesus was most likely to have said, with stuff that was likely added in by the various schools of Christianity that cropped up in the first couple of hundred years after the religion started. It is probably the most interesting of all of the works Crossan worked on. He and the others on the comittee,the Jesus Seminar, have been relentlessly attacked by the religious right, and their works and ideas comdemend by them quite vociferously.

They even published and entire book atacking Crossan and his scholarship.

Another book that the religious right has attacked by Crossan is Jesus: A revolutionary biography. Falwell and Robertson were deepely incensed at the suggestion that Jesus was a revolutionary of any kind.

Crossan reminds me of all of the Irish Catholic Priests I had as teachers when I was a kid.

The "Concerned Women for America" have attacked Crossan and the Jesus Seminar as Heretical, and attacked The Interfaith Alliance for honoring Peter Jennings with the Faoth amd Freedom Award, for his report "The Search for Jesus" because Jennings relied heavily on Crossan and three other members of the Jesus Seminar.

An ominous note, in an Article Attacking the Interfaith Alliace, Crossan, Jenning and the Jesus Seminar, the "Concerend women for America" presented methods for detecting the left wing attemt to spread these "lies about Christ and Christianity. "REAL: Christians must listen for key phrases, one of ewhich is "Stanfing up for religious freedom" which the "Concerned Women" have warned their supporters, is doublespeak for a leftist agenda. The INterfaith Alliance is an organization that these nonble women are dead set on exposing as an exclusive club for Religious Radicals.

Interested in finding out more about their witch hunt, and their plans for burning anyone who suggests that religious freedom is an American value

http://www.cwfa.org/articles/503/CFI/cfreport/

These people are ripe nuts, and they are dangerous, adn they elected George W. Bush.

A little quote from the link above:

Thus, the commitment to religious pluralism by organizations like The Interfaith Alliance is in reality a surreptitious attempt to marginalize the value system of the historic Christian faith. Biblical, Christian opposition to homosexual affirmation, unrestricted abortion, and radical feminist theology serves as an obstacle to the moral relativism of the modern pansexualist movement.


They are , I think in fact more dangerous than they are nuts. There agenda is to put an end to the constitutional guarantee for religious freedom, by interpreting it as only meaning freedom for the relgious right's interpretation of Christianity.

Another great source for dealing with fundies is here:

http://edwardtbabinski.us/fundamentalists/helpful_links.html

It is a site that is sort of a "Fundamentalists Anony,ous" a 12 step progrtam for those who are trying to escape religion addiction.

What offends the attackers of the attemts to apply historical analysis and archaelogy as tools to examine Christianity is the assertion that St Paul was not Christ, and that his interpretation of Christianity can not be taken a the "Word of God" as his writings were selected by one sect of christianity that happend to win a political battle for control during the early years of the religion.

Pauls writing are only a part of the Western Church, and many Christian scriptures do not include Pauls writings at all. while some exclude the Gospel of John. THey Syriac Churches, for example exclude a great deal of what is considered scripture, by the Western Church.
THe Coptic Churches in Egypt and Ethiopia as well, do not contain much of what is considered "the Gospel Truth" to the nuts of the Western Christian Church. I think Close to half of the Christian world in some way or another, excludes a lot of the scriptures that the west considers as authentic. In thew case of the Syriac Church and their New Testement (The Peshitta) their scriptures are still written in the orignal Aramaic, not Greek, and their traditions run in a continual line that can be traced back to 35 A.D. Their scriptures can be traced back further than any scripture in the Western Church. Fragments of the Gospel of Mark, as accepted by the Syriac Church, have been dated to 35 AD. There are some differences in these scripures that are significantly different thatn the interpreations of the Western Church. However, the nuts in the West, who attached a great deal of Western ideas to the teachings of an iternerant Jewish/Mediterranean preacher of the first century islost on these maniacs. Try to get a hold of the Peshitta some time if you can. A good deal of Christs sayings are loaded with innuendo, and a lot of the parables are loaded with puns in the origianl Aramaic. Far from being the serious type, Jesus was one of the original stand up comics. A rather funny guy.

The recent analysis of Pauls writings, plus some other historical evidence which suggests that Paul may have been a self-hating homosexual (new discoveries of linguistic and idiomatiic meanings of phrases in Pauls writings that are suggestive that Pauls. thorn in the flesh, was referring to Pauls homosexuality) This has sent the Fundies, and organizations like "Concerend Women of America" into and absolute fit, and their witch hunt has taken on even more acidic tones. One of the statements that Paul made about this "thorn in his flesh" was that it was a condition that brought about loathing, which none of the other possible conditions that have been suggested as the thorn elecited under Jewish Law.

Yet Paul, repeats his gratitude that those he was accepted by those who he preacxhed to and that they did not loath him

Epilepsy, one suggested condition to fit this, was not a consdition that was loathed under Jewish Law, nor were any of the other body ailments that have been used to explain what Paul meant by this "bodily thorn" Most of these physical conditions were conditions that evoked pity, but not scorn or loathing. Plus this thorn was also described as a messenger of Satan. One of the few human conditions that would have evoked loathing and scorn among religious Jews. particularly a Pharisee, as Paul was, would have been the discovery that Paul hemself had Homosexual usrges. This is not playing well with the religious right.

A key proponent of this idea, Bishop Shelby Spong, is the latest target of this group
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. he's incredible and considered the greatest living authority on the
historical Jesus. I have several books, including Excavating Jesus and The Five Gospels: What Did Jesus Really Say? He's amazing. Love him. Brave, brave man.
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WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. I just got Excavating Jesus, that looks interesting too, and that
book pisses off the Isrealis, by that I mean the Zionists that call themselves Isreal now, even more.
I aam looking forward to that one.
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doni_georgia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Look at who the founder of CWFA was - Beverly LaHaye
That's all you need to know. I was talking to my husband. I asked him the following: Whose faith is stronger - a man who left the church in search of the historic Jesus, who after uncovering the fact that many of our beliefs about Jesus simply are fabrications still believes in him and tries to pattern his life after him or the person who has to believe that every word in the Bible is absolute truth without error? A faith that hasn't been questioned is not a faith at all. I found all the information from the Jesus Seminar fascinating. It only served to make me want to learn more about Jesus. How could this possibly be a BAD thing? Fact is, I don't know if Jesus was born of a virgin. Don't know if he was bodily resurrected. Don't know if he really claimed to be divine. None of that matters. What I do know is that this man embodied the ideals of who I believe God to be and set the best example for living those ideals of anyone I know of. Through this, I know what type of person I would like to be, and my belief in Jesus has saved me time and again from myself. So I can honestly say that he is my savior.
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yellowdogintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. I heard that too, I listen to Terri every day though.
I have read the Five Gospels, and have the book.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I usually listen every day
But I went out, and my girlfreind had control of the car radio, so I was stuck listening to Bachman Turner Overdrive instead of NPR. I sleep with the radio on, and the earphone plugged into my ear, withe the Atlanta Air America station on, and then at 5 AM switch to either the BBC or NPR, and listen for a while nad go back to sleep. Whenever I wake up I cna strt listening immediately. I keep my television set to Closed Captioning so I can red the dialog, and keep the radoi going, wuither NPR or BBC, or Radio Netherlands, Budapest, Slovakia, Voice of Russia, Turkey, SLovakia or the Ukraine. Depends on what I feel like, but I always listen to one hour of each shortwave station a day, and the rest is on NPR. I am going out this weekend and getting a Skybox, so I can get XM radio, nad it also gas a build in CD MP3 player, and costs less than an XM or Suirius radio with the Boombox. I just wish that these satellite radio services would carry mopre international broadcasters than the BBC.
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checks-n-balances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
9. Hi again, Doni! I've read a couple of Crossan's books
One almost 30 years ago on Jesus' parables, and the other one about the historical Jesus, about 8 years ago.

I like him, and sorry I missed the show (although I have an idea of his opinion of Paul), but thanks for the link!
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doni_georgia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. His take on Paul was very different from the traditional take
His belief is that Paul was a revolutionary challenging Rome's authority. He talked about how the coins of Rome proclaimed Caesar as "King of Kings" "Son of God" "redeamer" "Savior" - all the terms used to describe Jesus, and how Paul would enter the city gates where these terms were boldly posted and go in and talk of a Jesus using the same terms. He talked about the three Pauls - the conservative Paul who basically said women should be barefoot and pregnant, the liberal Paul who said women should obey their husbands but husbands should love their wives - and goes into vivid detail of what that means, and the radical Paul who said in Christ there is no male or female, no free or slave. He tied the radical Paul into the founding of this country - "We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights . . ." He believes the radical Paul is the authentic Paul and that the other books which conflict this were ascribed to him, but were actually written later. It was very interesting. Be nice to know Paul wasn't the misogynist that he appears in some books of the Bible.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Linguistic analysis of Paul's letters has shown
that they were most likely not all written by the same person. Most of the "rightwing" letters of Paul are from a different author than the "mainstream" Paul.
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WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
10. I have read Rabbi Paul... great book.
I am now reading Rabbi Jesus, and I think it is great too.

I missed the FA... will catch it on the web, thanks.
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
13. How anyone could seriously claim Jesus wasn't a revolutionary,
and call themself a Christian, is a mystery to me.

It seems Falwell, etal. just want to grind their own axe, and truth be damned.
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doni_georgia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Another interesting take from Crossan was his take on the theonomists
the Christian right today. He said that they were so anxious to usher in the return to Christ because they were so uncomfortable with the Christ of the Bible. They can't handle a Christ who talked of peace, love, and social justice. They want a warrior king, which is what they think they will get when he comes again. It was very enlightening.
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