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varun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 11:03 AM
Original message
Pope says not to reject God for science
If he admires "pre-scientific" Asians and Africans so much, why does he not move there? Why enjoy the modern conveniences of science?

Hypocrite!

Also, If Africans and Asians are such godly people why not have an African or Asian pope?



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060910/ap_on_re_eu/germany_pope_visit

MUNICH, Germany - Pope Benedict XVI on Sunday warned modern societies not to let faith in science and technology make them deaf to God's message, and suggested that Asia and Africa could teach the wealthier West something about faith.

..."Put simply, we are no longer able to hear God — there are too many different frequencies filling our ears," he said. "What is said about God strikes us as pre-scientific, no longer suited to our age."...

..."People in Asia and Africa admire our scientific and technical progress, but at the same time they are frightened by a form of rationality which totally excludes God from man's vision, as if this were the highest form of reason."...



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POAS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. It's all Galileo's fault
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
2. Too late, Popie baby
For everything...turn, turn, turn...
There is a reason...turn, turn, turn...
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VegasWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
3. Okay, then let's just reject God out of plain common sense. nt
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cain_7777 Donating Member (417 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #3
34. That's exactly what it boils down to
and over time knowledge will allow people to place the bible back in the fiction section.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
4. "Why enjoy the modern conveniences of science? Hypocrite!"
Does the Pope claim that science and religion are incompatible?

If the Pope doesn't claim that science and religion are incompatible and you want to accuse the Pope of hypocrisy, then you will need to find some other basis for your accusation.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
5. If there is a Hell, a special place is reserved for Benedict.
He's quite the hypocrit. He condemns science but still lives with and uses modern technology (which exists because of science).
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
6. the Pope makes sense - rationality can and does include faith in God
in our vision of life.

The Pope is just saying the obvious - indeed there are few that reject God, although those that do often explain their rejection as being based on their being a more rational person than a believer.
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. In your opinion.
IMO there is nothing rational about believing in a god/gods.
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varun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. rationality and faith are totally different beasts
one require questioning the old beliefs (rationality).

Faith cannot be questioned.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
7. I'll vote for witholding medical care from Vatican officials!
Let's pass a law-- no hospital is allowed to render medical assistance to any official of the Catholic Church with a rank higer than Bishop or Cardinal.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. I don't recall any mention of doctors/physicians in the Old Testament
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
8. I thinkPope Benedict is saying people are far too focused on
money, power, and material things, and they have pushed God aside in favor of them. The science connection is related to the abortion and stem cell issue, I'm pretty sure. I don't see a reason for him to change his mind on those issues. He's telling HIS flock not to take part in such activities, and hoping other listeners will listen to him too, but it's an individual decision for all of us.

Aren't there any scientific peocedures YOU would reject for your own reasons? I personally have several, but I nor the Pope are forcing our opinions on you. Everyone has the right, and in fact duty to themselves, to accept or reject anything any leader says. Where it becomes a problem for all of us is when a secular leader, like the POTUS, demands that we all follow HIS personal beliefs and tries to make laws concerning them.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. This Pope in particular has interfered plenty in secular affairs.
Edited on Sun Sep-10-06 11:53 AM by saracat
And he doesn't just tell "his flock" what to do. The Pope frequently intervenes in international affairs.How dare he even mention Africa with his stand against condoms that caused millions to die? The Pope always puts faith above reason and this is criminal today. The Pope does have influence and Benidict is using it negatively.Remember this is the Church that condemened Galileo! And I say this having been raised as a Catholic with a Catholic education.
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
9. If God has a face or a message..
.. to show you, you won't miss it.

It can even be shown through science.

My problem isn't with science or the
ridiculous division people make between
religion and science, as if the two were
mutually exclusive.

My problem is with the anti-humanist meme
running in religionist circles. It's as if having
religion means you have the moral high
ground in a world where violence and hate
are norms and peace and love are abnormal.

Please, a return to both godly and humanist
sanity would really work for me.

Sue
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varun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
10. Some of these "religious types"
looks at those "good old days" with rose tinted glasses.

They dont remember the pestilence, the hard work, the poor masses working for a few rich lords.


Pope is one of them.
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951-Riverside Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
11. I think he was mostly targeting africans
They don't want Africans making advancements.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
12. This is from the same Pope that is about to embrace Intelligent Design
The message of the former Hitler Youth is that we must surrender reason to dogma. What's the difference between this ideology being pushed by the Vatican and the indoctrination this Pope received in the Hitler Youth?
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. He doesn't say much when his priests bone 6 year old boys
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plasticsundance Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
14. Fuck the dopey-popey
and the lingerie he came riding into town on.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
15. Could free will play a part of it?
It is how much contol people allow others to have over them whether it be the government or church.

If the message was God's it wouldn't fall on deaf ears.
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Joe Bacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
17. Eggs Benedict wants to take us back to the Inquisition
Sorry, this Orthodox Jew does NOT want to be burned at the stake.
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
20. "People in Asia and Africa admire our scientific
"People in Asia and Africa admire our scientific and technical progress, but luckily haven't heard much about our scandals, are receptive to simplicity, don't complain about the separation of church and state and haven't figured out that we are full of shit like literate wealthy countries" he said today, while using Asia and Africa as a strawman for his criticism of the west.
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
21. Well then, how about
we not reject the knowledge and the science produced by it that was given us by God? Come on now, supposedly God gave us the curiosity and intelligence to speculate, test, observe results, and draw conclusions. Not to use that "gift of God" seems terminally stupid if you're a believer. Or maybe they just think God made a mistake to give us the "gift" in the first place.
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agio Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
22. Given the Church's history
... of aggressively trying to wipe out indigenous Asian and (particularly) African culture through missionary activity, this statement rings somewhat hollow.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
23. There is a stark contrast between the backwards, Medieval organization of
the Roman Catholic Church, and the Jeffersonian model of democracy, in which free discourse flourishes, and individuals freely choose both their beliefs and their behavior, based on free access to information, in a culture of tolerance, equality and human and civil rights.

The platform from which this or any Pope speaks is illegitimate. For one thing, it excludes half the human race from any position of power or influence, and it is fundamentally patriarchal and fascist right on down to the parish level. Further, if you examine this Church's so-called lineage back to "Saint Peter," you find that it has no legitimacy even in Christian historical terms. Has there ever been a more un-Christian organization than the perpetrators of the Inquisition, the bloody Crusades, massive witch-burnings and book-burnings, and, if you track it back to the 5th Century AD (when the fascists solidified their power), the perps of the destruction of the Alexandria Library, the end of Ptolemaic tolerance of all religions and the beginning of pogroms against Jews, Pagans, and "heretics" (often the real Christians, the true followers of Jesus), and the murderers of the famous neo-platonic philosopher Hypatia, by skinning her alive?

Something went very wrong, indeed, with the Christian religion, between the 1st and 5th centuries AD--which did not begin to be corrected until the Protestant revolution and beginning of the Age of the Enlightenment, a thousand years later. The tie to the first Christians--the egalitarian Gnostics, who were inspired by what Jesus really taught ("love thine enemy") and how he really lived (communally, in chosen poverty)--was broken in the 5th century, when powermongering, empire-building men took over the Christian religion, began enforcing Christian baptism with the sword, concocted a monolithic set of "doctrines" and heavily edited "gospels" to be imposed from the top, and allied the church with the power of the state.

It is THIS heritage, THIS history, THIS broken faith, upon which the Pope claims his right to speak for God--a disreputable heritage, a history of oppression and bloodshed, and a completely sullied and co-opted "faith."

That being said, the problem with this current "debate"--whether it is framed as "evolution" vs. "intelligent design," or "science" vs. "religion"--is that, a) science has, indeed, become a "religion" of sorts, and has been co-opted by global corporate predators in much the same way that Christianity was co-opted by the powermongers of the 5th century; and b) the stupid political debates fostered by the rightwing minority, most particularly in the U.S. under the Bush Junta, are PREVENTING a criticism of science that is badly needed and long overdue, having to do with the LACK OF ETHICS in the uses to which scientific research, discoveries and inventions are being put--to name a few: nuclear bombs and other weaponry, dangerous nuclear energy, genetically modified organisms, patenting DNA and seeds, harmful pharmaceuticals and other profit-polluted medicine, industrial pollution, the torture of animals in various ways, computer programs designed for widespread spying on innocent individuals, and "bought and paid for" scientific reports that serve corporate PR purposes.

Science is little more than an adjunct of the Corporate Rulers these days. You might say that few of the discoveries that make modern life possible were ill intended, and I think that's probably true. Some are the results of pure research, which were then USED by non-scientists in ways that many scientists might object to (or have objected to). However, these days, in the U.S. in particular, the essential "checks and balances" on the misuse of scientific discoveries have been removed. Federal testing of pharmaceuticals and other potentially harmful substances is a Bushite disaster--comparable to their destruction of FEMA. We have NO protection from, and NO "check and balance" on, corporate science. They are greatly endangering our food supply, as we speak, with GMO crops, pesticides and other products, and are furthermore using their unchecked power to force these items on populations that don't trust them and don't want them.

While the corporate news monopolies foster this faux debate on "evolution"--and the Pope, concerned about the fertility of his "flock" and future donors, adds his illegitimate two cents about God vs. Science--the corporate rulers are raping and KILLING the earth, with highly "scientific" methods of deforestation, crop manipulation, pollution, oil wars and items like depleted uranium bombs.

The earliest scientists considered science to be a sacred endeavor. The Pythagoreans, for instance, believed that certain scientific secrets, in the wrong hands, would be disastrous. Astrology was the mother of astronomy, and its purpose was to connect the web of life from the distant stars down to the level of human affairs. We may laugh at some astrological beliefs today--especially its silly corporatization in the newspapers--but it was a complete philosophy at one time, which GAVE BIRTH to modern astronomy, and inspired the keeping astronomical records and the tracking of astronomical bodies. And the same is true of medicine--derived from herbal medicine, a sacred undertaking--and of virtually every scientific endeavor, from mathematics to chemistry to engineering. Mathematics at one time was considered the highest SPIRITUAL practice. And those who believed this were not crackpots--they were the INVENTORS of mathematics and the most original thinkers of their time. How appalled they would be to find that THEIR concept of God--as the highest, most perfect UNITY of all creation--had been co-opted by the three modern religions--Christianity, Judaism and Islam--that are now being used as the excuse for corporate oil wars that threaten all life on earth with nuclear holocaust.

These ancient scientists have something to teach us--and we must not let the rightwing/corporate bullshit distract us from the REAL discussion that needs to take place: what the hell good is human civilization, if we let these global corporate predators pollute the world to death, or nuke it to death? What good is a God who would egg us on to do this? What good are our religions if they cannot stop this? And what good has all the scientific discovery of the modern age been t us, if it lead us here--to the annihilation of life?

I think religious fundamentalism--in so far as it has any significant currency at all (and we can't be sure, given the Corporate Rulers use of it, and propagation of its views)--comes from a very fearful place inside the human heart, and this fear has been displaced onto "science" (and in particular onto "evolution," as a symbol of "science"), but has much more to do with the ravages of Corporate Rule, of which misuse of "science" is only one part. Think about Corporate farms driving family farms out of business. Think of Corporate "malls" replacing town squares. Think of Corporate TV replacing conversation and other creative human activities. Think of Corporate-mandated freeways, instead of byways. Think of Corporate commercials and billboards co-opting our love of children and each other, to sell products. Think of the delusion of BushWorld, vs. real democracy.

The religious fundamentalists, as presented by BushWorld, are very mixed up people. They can't see the False God who rules over them--the Global Corporate Predators who detest and are avidly destroying everything they hold dear: community, family, loyalty, traditional values such as truthfulness and hard work. And they've fallen prey to a faux president who spouts these values, and does exactly the opposite. They've been sold cheap ideas--like the demonization of gay marriage--in place of the real thing: real conservatism. Conservatism that CONSERVES--our environment, our resources, our children's safety and health, our money, our Constitution and our democratic traditions.

But perhaps they can teach us something, in roundabout way--that "faith" in science is as wrong-headed as "faith" in our Corporate Rulers, or any rulers. "Science" has become an establishment, like any other. Like the Catholic Church. Like the corrupt liars in our political parties. It is NOT above criticism, and NEEDS thorough-going criticism, ESPECIALLY from an ethical and moral and humanitarian--and perhaps even a religious, or spiritual--perspective.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. No, science is not a religion.
As a biotech major I am insulted by you even suggesting such a moronic thing.
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Wise Doubter Donating Member (458 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
24. God IS science.....
Duh !!
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VegasWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Well, as an atheist and a scientist, if you believe that god is science,
then you are very fortunate person indeed, because your god is learning more and more by the microsecond. In another 100 years, your god will be extremely smart as compared to today.
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Wise Doubter Donating Member (458 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. I am - I know, and I`m thankful !
:toast:


I always tell people "Didn`t your momma teach you there ain't no magic?"

religion is blind.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
25. What's the frequency, Benny?
lot of static...
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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
28. What is ironic is that the opposite of the pope may not be atheism
It could very well be the prosperity gospel, in which worldly sucess is the promised reward of believers. Science and the resultant technology are very much a part of that worldly success.
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moobu2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
29. He, like most other

filthy rich rightwing Christian leaders are afraid of science for obvious selfish reasons.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
31. Well, I trust that sanctimonious asshole doesn't use a physician then
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
33. Bear shits in woods.
NT
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cain_7777 Donating Member (417 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Religion shits on knowledge
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