Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

James Randi: Debunking the channelers, etc.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Religion/Theology Donate to DU
 
Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 06:11 PM
Original message
James Randi: Debunking the channelers, etc.
This guy is the real deal on nabbing the channeler scams. Anybody seen his work?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. OOps, here's the link
To raise public awareness of these issues, the Foundation offers a $1,000,000 prize to any person or persons who can demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability of any kind under mutually agreed upon scientific conditions. This prize money is held in a special account which cannot be accessed for any purpose other than the awarding of the prize.

Located in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, the Foundation is funded through member contributions, grants, sales of books and videos, seminars, and conferences.


James Randi Educational Foundation
201 S.E. 12th St. (E. Davie Blvd.)
Fort Lauderdale, FL 33316-1815
U.S.A.
phone: 954 467 1112
fax: 954 467 1660
e-mail: jref@randi.org
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Here is a case study
The Art of "Cold Reading"
The currently-popular "psychics" like Sylvia Browne, James Van Praagh, and John Edward, who are getting so much TV space on Montel Williams, Larry King, and other shows, employ a technique known as "cold reading." They tell the subjects nothing, but make guesses, put out suggestions, and ask questions. This is a very deceptive art, and the unwary observer may come away believing that unknown data was developed by some wondrous means. Not so.

Examples: "I get an older man here" is a question, a suggestion, and a guess by the "reader," who expects some reaction from the subject, and usually gets it. That reaction may just be a nod, the actual name of a person, or an identification (brother, husband, grandfather), but it is supplied
BY THE SUBJECT, not by the reader. "They're saying, 'Bob,' or 'Robert.' Do you recognize this person?" is another question, suggestion, and guess. If there's a Bob or Robert, the subject will amplify the identification. But if there's no Bob or Robert immediately recognized, the reader passes right on, after commenting that Bob is there alright, but not recognized right now. If any Bob is remembered later, that is incorporated into the spiel. You should observe and listen to a video of a reading.
In one such by Van Praagh, prepared by the "48 Hours" TV program, a reading that lasted 60 minutes, we found only TWO actual statements made, and 260 questions asked. Both actual statements--guesses--were wrong. Van Praagh was looking for the name of the woman's deceased husband, and he came up with it by asking, "Do you know anyone named, Jack?" The woman answered, "Yes! Jack, my husband!" But Van Praagh didn't identify "Jack" at all. He asked her if SHE would identify him. By that time, Van Praagh had already tried on her 26 other men's names--all wrong. But, the woman--the subject--forgot about those failures, because they were not important to her. "Jack" was important.

The readers have a way of leading the subject to believe that they knew something they didn't.
Example:
Reader: "Did your husband linger on in the hospital, or did he pass quickly?"
Subject: "Oh, he died almost immediately!"
Reader: "Yes, because he's saying to me, `I didn't suffer. I was spared any pain.'"

It's strange that the reader (Van Praagh, in this example) had to ask that question.....
And remember, these readers often go out and interview the audience members when they're on line waiting to get into the studio or auditorium. That technique was employed by the very successful reader Doris Stokes. She would feed back any data she got as if she were refreshing her memory of what had been told her. "Are you the lady who has a passed-on sister, dearie?" would of course receive assent from the victim, and ahhhs from the audience. Also, a person who approaches the reader before the TV show or auditorium meeting and says she has a question about her deceased grandmother, can then later be selected out of the audience when they're on-camera or during the live encounter, and can then be asked, "Is your question about your grandmother?" and that appears--to everyone else--like a bang-on "hit." Or, and this is very subtle indeed, people in the studio or auditorium audience--usually seated up front for best visibility--are sometimes those who have already been to the "psychic" for a private reading, and have then been asked to show up later to occupy reserved seats at the public in-person gathering "to develop more information" using the "collective power of the assembled audience." The reader then repeats previously-gleaned data, and that appears miraculous both to the audience in the studio and at home, watching, or elsewhere in the auditorium audience.

We tested Sylvia Browne in 1989, on live TV, and she failed miserably. On that occasion, she was not allowed to speak to anyone in advance, or to be asked or told anything in advance. The audience was told to only answer "yes" or "no," when asked a DIRECT question, and Sylvia bombed out big-time. She blamed it all on bad vibrations.... Van Praagh and Edward have not responded to our offer to test them--for the million-dollar prize, even.
So, you see, it's your perception of what's actually being done, rather that the reality of the procedure, and your ignorance of other subtle clues and methods, that misleads you in your observations of these "psychics."
I'll give you one example of something I did when I was performing as a mentalist in Toronto, my home town, at the age of 18. (I hasten to add here that I would ALWAYS thoroughly disclaim any genuine powers, before and after my show.) They had a huge auditorium filled with reserved seats, just about every one of them occupied by eager subjects. It was some sort of a charity affair, and seats were expensive. After I got rolling with the various moving objects and blindfolded duplication-of-handwriting stunts (spoonbending was not yet a popular miracle!) I stopped abruptly and pointed to a lady in the third-row aisle seat. "I'm led to say to you that I get a middle name of 'Rose' for you, madame!" I cried. Her gasp verified that I was right." And that name is more than significant to you." She leaned forward. "I see a clock, a very old clock, and on the dial three pink roses?" She started to speak, and I silenced her by raising my hand. "But this is a strange clock. It can't tell the time!" By now, the poor woman was about to pass out in excitement. "Why is it useless? I see two arrows, or darts?They're metal, and they're broken?Ah! I see! These are the hands of that clock, and they've come off the clock face, and are lying together behind the glass cover of the clock dial! Is that right?" The woman was standing, mouth open, nodding vigorously. She was awe-struck, and the applause was vigorous indeed. How was it done? A lucky guess? No. Planning.
T.K. Lawson, my buddy, had been working with that charity. He was the one got me the gig (a contracted appearance). And he also went through several neighborhoods selling tickets to likely donors. He had sold tickets CC-20 and CC-22 to this lady, and she'd invited him into her living-room while she made out a check to pay for the tickets. He observed that the "rose" theme was everywhere, and an embroidered "sampler" was framed by the door, with the woman's full name on it. That clock was by the fireplace. T.K. noted these facts, and reported them to me. I must tell you that together we intercepted that dear lady as she left after the show, and explained to her how I'd been "psychic." She was highly entertained with the explanation, and grateful for our caring to tell her.
I somehow don't think that Browne, Edward, and Van Praagh would trouble to do such a thing. But, after all, they say they're REALLY "speaking with the dead."
I'm amazed at how much death affects people who undergo the process. It makes them really stupid and forgetful. Whenever I've asked any psychics--or spiritualists--to contact my paternal grandmother, it seems she doesn't remember such basics as the name of her husband, or the name of her church--both important elements in her life while she was "here." Now that she's "there," her rather prodigious intellect has left her quite completely.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mojambo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. I've read a few of his books
He's a wonderfully necessary skeptic.

Love the guy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
China_cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yep.
He was a professional magician who turned to debunking the scammers who claim psychic powers and ability to talk to the dead.

Sylvia Browne originally agreed to his million dollar challenge but I think it's now been something like 2 years and she won't let herself be pinned down to a date.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. Statisticians...
Edited on Sat Nov-27-04 06:28 PM by liberalmuse
are the true 'psychics'. They did a study once using a statistician and a few psychics and the statistician did significantly better than the best of them.

However, I used to work for an organization that studied UFO sightings and other weird phenomena. Our science board members were made up of ex-NASA scientists and well-reknown physicists, statisticians and one former astronaut. Makes you wonder.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. I think Randi is OK,
and debunking charlatans is important. On the other hand, I'm a person who's a pagan and have experienced some stuff Randi would probably pooh-pooh. Hmmmm.....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Astarho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-04 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
7. Randi doesn't impress me
He seems to be pushing his own agenda.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. yes, he's pushing his own agenda
that agenda is to expose as many charlatans as possible.

when, exactly, did having an "agenda" become a bad thing?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Seriously, how can anyone be "fair & balanced" with an agenda?
So how do you come to the conclusion that having an agenda *not* a bad thing?? How can a point be taken seriously by someone who obviously is coming from a point of bias?

This applies across the board....politically or from someone who wants to merely "debunk". BTW they use the same tactics as many repugs who want to shut liberals down...ridicule and lies...interesting, don't you think? Or maybe you can't see the similarities??

...and just how can Randi always know *before* he finds the facts/proof/evidence that someone is (by his very own labeling)...a "charlatan"? Could it possibly be he has his mind made up & makes the facts support his preconceived conclusions.....?

Just offering another pov :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. i know they are charlatans
Edited on Wed Dec-01-04 12:43 AM by enki23
the same way i know the sun will rise tomorrow. it has always been the case. if it's pitch black tomorrow, my first thought won't be, "this time, it didn.'t rise". it will be much more likely i had gone blind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. umm...that is not exactly an openminded point of origin
Edited on Wed Dec-01-04 01:06 PM by Desertrose
and please spare me the blather of how being openminded allows ones brains to fall out....being openminded allows other possibilites and creative solutions to come IN.


"I believe there is no source of deception in the investigation of
nature which can compare with a fixed belief that certain kinds of
phenomena are IMPOSSIBLE."
-William James


....and I take it you also think Randi is an unbaised scentific minded person with no agenda to promote who gives you the *real truth* and *straight factual reporting*, right?

You really have no right to make fun of any other *believer* if that is what you think....and that having an agenda is not a bad thing....?


Do you realize how many scientists feel there IS something to paranormal events?? Obviously you choose to ignore them.

...it will be much more likely i had gone blind"
the evidence in your statements tells me you may already be there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. i don't think randi is unbiased at all
Edited on Wed Dec-01-04 01:19 PM by enki23
it would take a lot of evidence, now, to convince me the earth isn't actually in orbit around the sun. i'm not open minded about that at all. i'm also not open minded about the vast majority of what many call "paranormal" events, for exactly the same reasons.

randi is biased in favor of positions well supported by scientific and historical evidence. i'm biased in the same way. it's a useful bias, in that it gives you the best currently-available understanding of the world as it actually is. future data will change that view, as it always has.

this is silly, you know. i'll believe in the giant purple carrot at the end of the world as soon as someone provides a truckload of strong evidence in its favor. till then, no giant purple carrot, no unicorns. and no matter what happens, there is no "paranormal." it's a meaningless word. either something is real, part of the reality in which we find ourselves, or it is not. either it is "normal" in that sense, or it is not. there is no grey area between "exists" and "does not exist." just like that famous cat, who--in spite of popular misunderstandings--never really was dead and not-dead at the same time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. then I suppose you are not open to possibilities
of more than one *reality* (whatever that is anyhow)...and the possibly that these different realities overlap so that sometimes things are seen by some and not by others.


"randi is biased ......it's a useful bias, in that it gives you the best currently-available understanding of the world as it actually is.'

NO, it gives you one point of view of how the world is and excludes all others...and you readily admit that is is biased. Amazing.


"there is no "paranormal." it's a meaningless word. either something is real, part of the reality in which we find ourselves, or it is not. either it is "normal" in that sense, or it is not."

This is merely a word game.....it may be meaningless to you, but not to all. You don't get to choose which words have meaning for the rest of us you know.

How nice to live in a black & white world.....sometimes the shades of grey can hold the most interesting things....and sometimes a "one size fits all" belief system ( no matter whether its based on science or religion or nothing) DOESN'T fit all.


BTW I do agree that something either exists or does not exist...but it is the form in which it may exist that we don't agree on here....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. not equally
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 01:44 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Religion/Theology Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC