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don954 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-03-05 07:00 PM Original message |
Why Abortion is Moral - an essay that every liberal needs to read |
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eleonora (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Jan-03-05 10:34 PM Response to Original message |
1. Post 4 paragraphs at most |
anytime you cite sources...copyrights, ya know?
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Al_Smith (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-04-05 03:48 PM Response to Original message |
2. She should have controlled her sex act. |
"It's not. On the contrary, abortion is an absolutely moral choice for any woman wishing to control her body. "
Then she should have skipped the earlier sex. |
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Scout (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Jan-04-05 07:03 PM Response to Reply #2 |
3. yup, don't you know.... |
Edited on Tue Jan-04-05 07:05 PM by Scout
no woman is EVER, EVER allowed to have sex even once in her lifetime, no matter if she's had her tubes tied (pregnancy still happens), is using birth control (all methods have failures), is married, single, middle-aged or very young.
Nope, you silly girls, just say NO 'cuz once you're preggers, you're just a vessel for his seed. Who cares what you want, or how you got pregnant, or what will happen to you. Just don't you have that sex 'cuz Al_Smith says you better not! on edit: a very well reasoned argument on many points in the OP and the best response you came up with was she should keep her legs together. LOL. |
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iverglas (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jan-05-05 10:01 AM Response to Reply #2 |
4. who's "she" ... |
... the cat's mother?
"Then she should have skipped the earlier sex." Got any particular "she" you're addressing this to? Like maybe one of the many, many, many women who are members of DU -- this little community you've decided to grace with your presence -- and who have had abortions? And I mean, civility appears to be just one of your problems. I'm seeing a big deficiency in the logic department, too: "It's not. On the contrary, abortion is an absolutely moral choice for any woman wishing to control her body." Then she should have skipped the earlier sex. If abortion is a moral choice for a woman, then she should have skipped sex? Go figure, eh? Perhaps, in your own charmingly muddled way, you were meaning to say: If a woman wishes to control her body, then she should have skipped sex. To which the sufficient answer is: sez you. With the optional follow-up: who the fuck cares? |
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Al_Smith (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jan-05-05 04:18 PM Response to Reply #4 |
5. Face it - that's how women control their own bodies. |
"If a woman wishes to control her body, then she should have skipped sex."
By Jove, I think you have muddled through. |
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iverglas (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jan-05-05 05:59 PM Response to Reply #5 |
6. "face it"? |
"... that's how women control their own bodies."
Well ... I could offer you, off the top of my head, something like a zillion ways in which women control their bodies. There's ... standing up. And sitting down. And taking a bath. And eating pizza for breakfast. And crossing the road, for no reason at all. "That's how women control their own bodies." So how's about you face them apples, eh? There's also engaging in sexual activity. And refraining from sexual activity. And continuing a pregnancy. And -- wait for it, now -- terminating a pregnancy. It's just amazing, isn't it? Absolutely everything that one does with one's body amounts to an exercise of control over one's body. Control over one's body ... something that is also known as the right to life, the right to liberty, the right to security of the person. Absolutely everything that one does with one's body amounts to THE EXERCISE OF A RIGHT. And that includes terminating a pregnancy: an exercise of the right to life, the right to liberty and the right to security of the person. And as in the case of vast numbers of things that other people do with their bodies in the exercise of their rights, your opinion about what they do just ain't worth a pinch of poop if they don't think it's worth a pinch of poop, no matter how grand and fine you might think your opinion is. Even if it made sense ... which "If a woman wishes to control her body, then she should have skipped sex" doesn't much. Doesn't at all, actually. Women *DO* control their bodies. There's no prerequisite for it. If women wish to control their bodies, all they really have to do is be human beings. Oddly enough, that's exactly what some of us think women are. Human beings have the right to control their bodies, and may therefore do what they wish with them, unless and until someone comes up with a good reason to interfere. Women may have sex, not have sex, continue pregnancies, terminate pregnancies. You may eat pizza for breakfast, cross the street, stand up, sit down, turn around three times, and post your pointless opinions on the internet. Accordingly, it makes as much sense for you to say "If a woman wishes to control her body, then she should have skipped sex" as it would make for me to say "If you wish to control your body, then you should skip posting your pointless opinions on the internet". None, that is, which is why I wouldn't dream of saying such a pointless nonsensical thing to you. I'm still wondering why you posted your own pointless nonsensical thing. The mere fact that I muddled through what you said to determine what your meaning was doesn't mean that what you said was meaningful. |
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Al_Smith (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Jan-05-05 06:39 PM Response to Reply #6 |
7. killing your offspring 'terminating pregnancy' |
Equating killing your offspring and eating pizza for breakfast is hardly convincing.
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REP (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-06-05 12:31 AM Response to Reply #7 |
8. Better Idea - Men Control Their Sperm |
Sterilize all men, after first storing a sperm sample. That way, no sex can lead to unwanted pregnancy or abortion (or "murder!!!!!1!" as you might think of it). All pregnancies are the result of IVF, and all pregnancies are wanted. Such a small price for men to pay to end "murder!!!!!1!", right?
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iverglas (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-06-05 09:04 AM Response to Reply #7 |
10. actually |
Equating terminating a pregnancy and "killing your offspring" is very convincing. Perhaps not of what you were wishing to convince anyone, but very convincing all the same.
Once again: did you want to identify this "you" you're talking to/about? Got anyone in particular in mind whom you want to speak up and address as / call a killer of her offspring? C'mon, don't be shy. |
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iverglas (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jan-06-05 09:01 AM Response to Original message |
9. seen that one before |
... and it's still what it was: an expression of one guy's opinion, and one that doesn't make a tremendous amount of sense in many ways.
1. Is it alive?Well, you see, choice supporters ("pro choice supporters": department of redundancy department ...) are usually responding to someone who is busy equivocating on the word "alive" if and when they say such things. (I don't say such things myself, but I suppose this guy may know someone who does.) Tissue can be alive or dead: my big toe is currently alive, as in composed of living cells and tissue, but if it were severed from my body it would soon be composed of dead cells and tissue, and thus be "dead". Organisms can also be alive or dead. The problem is that when the anti-choice brigade talks about a z/e/f being "alive", it isn't usually representing the z/e/f as analogous to my big toe, nor would it generally leap to agree with me that both my big toe and a z/e/f are "alive" in the same sense. 2. Is it human?And yup, again, my feet are well clear of my mouth, since I don't say such things. My big toe is "human", in that it is composed of cells and tissue with human DNA. Is that what the anti-choice brigade means when it says that a z/e/f is "human"? Is that really what a choice supporter is denying if s/he says that a z/e/f is not "human"? 3. Is it a person?And here we enter the realm of nonsense. My computer is a potential HumVee, I guess. I'll be taking my computer to the recycle depot when I'm done with it, and it's entirely possible that some of its elements will end up in a HumVee. Is there some reason that this possibility should be anywhere in my mind as I work away at my keyboard? Or that it should govern any decisions I make about my computer? Now the thing is, it's also entirely possible that my computer will never be a HumVee. Just as it's entirely possible that a z/e/f will never be a person, even if no mortal hand intervenes in the process in which it is engaged. Z/e/fs come into existence and cease to exist, never having become persons, all the time. What I can't figure out is why the possibility that a particular z/e/f is a "potential person" should determine what anyone does in respect of it. 4. Is it physically independent?And that's all quite fascinating, if the question that is in issue were whether pregnant women have some "moral obligation" in respect of their pregnancies. (And I always have to ask: obligation to whom?) Of course, that's a discussion that some might want to have. The discussion that's had in the real world, however, is whether the exercise of pregnant women's right to terminate their pregnancies can legitimately be interfered in by law. 5. Does it have human rights?And up is down, and war is peace. What kind of nonsense is this? Human beings have human rights. If it ain't a human being, it ain't got human rights. It's definitional. A potential person must always be given full human rights unless its existence interferes with the rights of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness of an already existing conscious human being. Thus, a gestating fetus has no rights before birth and full rights after birth.A complete dog's breakfast. Is there some other variety of "potential person" hiding in the shadows, other than z/e/fs, that we're talking about here? If a z/e/f has no rights before birth (which simply means a z/e/f has no rights, since after birth there is no z/e/f, there is a human being), what's this "yes and no" stuff and nonsense? If a fetus comes to term and is born, it is because the mother chooses to forgo her own rights and her own bodily security in order to allow that future person to gestate inside her body. If the mother chooses to exercise control over her own body and to protect herself from the potential dangers of childbearing, then she has the full right to terminate the pregnancy.How's that? A woman who continues a pregnancy is forgoing (the exercise of) her rights? I don't think so. She is choosing how to exercise her rights. All exercises of rights involve risks, that being simply another way of saying that everything we do involves risks. We opt for one particular set of risks rather than another when we exercise our right to do Thing X instead of Thing Y. There is at least one alternative -- and usually multiples -- to everything we do. Doing one rather than the other is not "forgoing" our rights, it is exercising them. A woman who chooses to remain pregnant opts for the risks associated with pregnancy and delivery, presumably because she has done the risk/benefit analysis and decided that the anticipated benefits are worth the risk. It's actually quite simple. You cannot have two entities with equal rights occupying one body. One will automatically have veto power over the other - and thus they don't have equal rights. In the case of a pregnant woman, giving a "right to life" to the potential person in the womb automatically cancels out the mother's right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.It's even simpler. You cannot have two entities occupying one body. In our paradoxical mind/matter way of being, entity is body, among other things. A woman who chooses to continue a pregnancy does not "give a right to life" to anything. She might be said to give it "life", but pregnant women are not authorized to dole out (or take away) rights. After birth, on the other hand, the potential person no longer occupies the same body as the mother, and thus, giving it full human rights causes no interference with another's right to control her body.Well, actually, after birth, this "potential person" ceases to exist. To speak more accurately and reasonably, the z/e/f no longer exists; a human being exists. (Assuming that the birth was successful and the neonate begins to function autonomously; otherwise there is a dead z/e/f, just like there would be a dead big toe if I had a terrible accident.) 6. Is abortion murder?Once s/he has been born, a person is a person. Not a potential person. Again, it's definitional: if it's born, human and alive, it's a human being -- a "person" of the human being variety. Yes, that's a decision, made by collectives of human beings, in order to define what are, and what are not, members of their collectives. Human beings are members, not-human beings are not. It is a dividing line drawn in a process. Life is a process. We draw lines in it all the time, all of which are somewhat arbitrary. There is no magical moment when one becomes "an adult", or "old". The grey area is a good deal smaller when it comes to "born", but birth is still a process, just as aging is. It's even worse when you consider that most women who have an abortion have just made the most difficult decision of their life. No one thinks abortion is a wonderful thing. No one tries to get pregnant just so they can terminate it. Even though it's not murder, it still eliminates a potential person, a potential daughter, a potential son. It's hard enough as it is. Women certainly don't need others telling them it's a murder.The thing is, women don't need others telling them that their abortion is anything, which includes "the most difficult decision of their life", "not a wonderful thing", "eliminates a potential person", etc. Those are all some guy's opinion. And for someone who has such unkind things to say about others' opinions, one might think that he'd be just a tad more restrained about "dumping" his opinion on other people's bodies and lives. Apparently he meant well. But good intentions ..., with friends like that ..., etc. A z/e/f is human, in the sense that it has human DNA and is part of a human body. A z/e/f is alive, in the sense that it is composed of living cells and tissues and is part of a living body. A z/e/f is not born. It is not a human being. It does not have rights. The guy does get that part right. "Rights" means something, and to say that a z/e/f "has rights" (or to propose that rights somehow be bestowed upon it) is to deny and subvert and ultimately eliminate the meaningful content of the word/concept "rights". |
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