Leaving America Behind

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Destruction of our city schools. Voucher programs help private schools but ruin public ones. Ohio's education program is in deep trouble from their previous Republican administration.

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When you send jobs overseas to third world slave workers whose going to pay the taxes? No jobs...no money. It also creates problems at home and in society (crime, divorce, mental disease, drugs, alcohol, etc.). Toledo has 10% unemployment. Really it's higher than that when you consider those who don't collect or are discouraged. They are no longer counted as being "unemployed".

The ploy to improve public schools is to destroy them. Who benefits? The religious organizations where the money is a big black hole. They are not held accountable. There has been fraud yet they go ahead anyway. Transferring students to private and charter schools leaves the difficult children behind. Increasing school numbers with this method only creates larger problems. It's a quick fix.

The religious and private schools who rely on publicly educated teachers don't contribute to the system. They pay less and teachers drop out. We have enough problems with the huge baby boomer generation retiring let alone destroying our education system for teachers.

Studies have shown public and private students do the same on tests (if they are given in private schools) considering everything is the same in their communities, etc. The rush to religion to solve our education gaps is just a ploy to ruin our public system over all.

All schools should be Charter schools.

"In order to receive federal school funding, assessments are required in public schools by the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001. Assessments may take any form so long as the same assessment system is used for all students in a state. Although it is not required under NCLB, states generally have chosen the least expensive testing system: multiple-choice standardized tests.<8> In the 2006-07 school year, most states spent between $12 and $18 per student per year on student assessments (including tests that are not required under NCLB).<9>

Private school and homeschooled students are not subject to this requirement." Wikipedia.

So how can these systems be compared?

standardized tests is because NCLB requires states to use standardized testing. And the vast majority of reputable standardized tests are multiple choice.

So it is misleading to say it is not required, because actually, it is.

but they are mandated so public schools really don't have much choice.

So, it is not de fact required. It is difficult and costly to grade open ended questions which is probably the reason most states use multiple choice.

I've seen the studies which show negligble differences in test performances between private and public schools. Forcing children to attend a private school over a public school seems to offer no benefit as far as testing goes. Are there other reasons then, that private schools may be beneficial over a public school? Having graduated from the public school system, I don't know the answer to that. BTW, not all private schools are religous schools, though I will grant that many are.

So are there problems sending kids to private school? (Once again I don't know if there any). However, what needs to be done to improve public schools? It's been shown that more money doesn't solve the problems. Utah has/had the lowest spending per student in the nation, and their kids tend to score signifcantly higher on tests, have a lower drop-out rate, and so on. I am not sure, though I suspect, the answer comes down to parental involvement. Which again begs the questions, how do we "fix" our education system?

Is there anything wrong with private schools? If parents want to send their kids to a private school, no.

"The religious organizations where the money is a big black hole. They are not held accountable. There has been fraud yet they go ahead anyway." -- does this really matter? Not if the private school is privately supported. If it is publicly supported (vouchers), then there should be some transparency. Fraud - it exists everywhere, in both private and public, so nothing particularly accrues from this comment.


Bottom line is - what should be done to solve our education problem???

It is unconstitutional to use public funds for religious schools.

All schools should be "special" like Charter schools.

We can not have good schools without proper funding and healthy families. Families who are under stress and jobless do not have children who prosper under such conditions.

Impeach Bush.

I think the legal argument may go the other way....the government is providing $ for education to the parents/kids, however it is done, and they choose where to spend the money. The government is not endorsing religion, and as noted, not all private schools are religious (my mother-in-law used to own a private school - which was non-religious - before she retired). So I don't think that argument will gain any traction in the courts.

So what is proper funding? As noted, throwing money at the problem doesn't solve it, and the problems existed before Bush implemented NCLB (and don't forget that NLCB was written by democrats), so throwing stones here isn't a good idea....


Impeaching Bush won't do any good at this stage either....though it will make a lot of people feel good.

How do we solve the problem????

problem.

There is no simple answer.

At this point in American politics, the chances of having a good educational system whether public or private are close to nil. Education has been caught up in the same philosophical maelstrom that has devastated our economy, international relations, environment, and public trust in the Government.

There is no use in my going down the list of what has caused this. The fact is, America has no workable philosophy of life, politics, business or environmental. In general terms, those who have managed to take control of the Government are either too greedy or too self-centered to give and expansive thought to the better good of the American people as a whole.

Sorry to be speaking in such general terms. Not enough room here to go into details.

Develop a valid philosophy, that is a system of values based on reality, and the education system would prosper. Trouble is that we need better education to be able to work out the details of a valid value system. It's a catch 22.

With what is left of our Democracy, we need to wrest control of the government from the hands of the greedy and the unenlightened. (might not be possible).

I certainly agree with that. We used to have statesmen (not intending anything gender spacific here) - not politicians. As you noted, the people have to do something about it. I think term limits will help with that, but it's only a start, and it gets off the education problem. The parents do need to get involved with their children's education, but that's a choice the parent(s) have to make. That will probably make the most difference, though certainly not the only one.

situation. That might be the best first step that needs to be taken by enough Americans to be able to move in the right direction.

My view is that the primary purposes for government are health, education, commerce and defense. Any idea that education is simply a product like so much cheese or steel bolts shows a lack of understanding of the education process. Leaning cannot be "cranked out" like so many pieces of manufactured goods.

In the first place, what comprises a good curriculum? It's not enough to say "reading, writing and arithmetic". In America, there is no sign of a consensus as to what should be taught in the schools.
There is far too much obsessing about racial and theological notions. It seems that too many parents expect their children to be taught spiritual values at school. That idea in itself is enough to stop the education process. Teachers have specialties which reflects their particular interests and education. They shouldn't be asked to try to inculcate values that are better left to the parents.

You say that parents aren't involved enough in the school. Well, unfortunately, in certain disruptive ways, they are too involved. They will make a beeline to the principle's office if they disapprove of some remark made by a teacher, but aren't involved enough to discuss their child's work with that teacher.

I think it would be a reasonable idea to have all of the classes available on the Internet so that the parents could see exactly what is happening in the classroom. As a teacher, I would welcome such involvement.

But, I digress.

The current public school system is in a state of almost total collapse. That doesn't mean that they should be abandoned. It means that the system needs to be fixed. But, so long as America is promoting
killing and torture , allowing sick and elderly to die needlessly, depriving it's citizens of basic rights, there isn't much need to try to deal with the education system.

Republicanism is a philosophy that first and foremost teaches that selfishness and greed are good and that true compassion and understanding of the systemic nature of existence are bad and signs of weakness.

I hope that within a hundred years, history will discuss the period of Republicanism from the Nixon era through the second Bush rein as an example of how Democracy can be perverted for the benefit of a few powerful people. That they will point out the many disasters it caused, not the least of which, was the almost total destruction of the national education system.

Did I say that was the only solution? But most are today. The ones who can't are working two jobs.

Number 1: You have to start to get Bush out of our education system since he profits off it and destroys it.

Nunber 2: The propaganda about our education system is broken is wrong. Our government is broken and full of corruption and lies.

Maybe in your universe but not in mine. We have parents who have no phone and can't be contacted, even in an emergency. I taught 1st grade for years and the majority of my parents didn't even bother to show up for parent teacher conferences. Can you imagine having a 6 year old and not even wanting to meet his teacher who he spends 6 hours a day with? No I can't imagine it either but it happens a LOT.

We had a kid get sick last year and lay in the nurse's office with a fever while we tried to contact her mother. Her fever finally got so high we had to call an ambulance. Mom showed up at the hospital at 6 pm. Her child could have DIED and we spent 6 hours trying to contact her. Never did find her.

We had the superintendent's daughter at my school. She got sick and the nurse tried to call her mother but she wasn't home so she called the superintendent's office and his secretary said she would deliver the message. FOUR HOURS LATER a cab showed up at school to take the little girl home. A cab.

I know two different single parent families with 4 kids and a mom who works nights. The kids get up alone, because mom is asleep and they come home to an empty house because mom is at work. And one of these moms had the nerve to tell me she CHOSE to work nights because her kids drive her crazy.

I can't even count the number of kids in our neighborhood while my kids were growing up whose parents were never home and left them unsupervised most of the time. I had a homework club at my house and some of the neighborhood kids' teachers called ME when they were having trouble at school.

No parents are NOT involved. Some are but too many are not.

Just ask any teacher.

I've seen the assistant principal drive kids home at 4:30 after finally finding a relative willing to take him when mom couldn't be found. School was out at 2:15.

The system that is broken is parenting.

Most parents are conscientious and do a good job. But the bad ones tend to be really bad. And there isn't much even a great school can do with their kids.

We need to focus more of our efforts as a society on educating parents. We can't fix our schools until we have better parenting.

which tax payers shouldn't have to pay. We already give them too much for their "special" interest not ours.

1. They get to select their students. Public schools are mandated to educate ALL.

2. Private schools can kick kids out anytime for any reason.

3. Parents are paying tuition. So you bet they make sure Junior does his homework and minds his manners.

As for our education problem, you can't rely on schools alone to fix it. Schools are only as outstanding as the community they serve. If the kids come from families who don't value education, they are not going to achieve at a satisfactory level. And schools can't do much to make parents care.

sure that private schools are out performing public schools. Of course, there are examples of both public and private schools that are terrible and others are excellent.

I wasn't impressed. They did not exceed in the classes when put up against other students at the university. Some even fell behind and used other student's notes and answers. There wasn't that drive to exceed when you have everything in life already.

is little difference between charter and religious schools. Religious schools don't take the same tests as public and can't be compared for that very reason.

After grade school many religious schools don't accept higher grade students so they go to the public schools like the rest of the community. Most younger kids are not the problem are they?

I met a woman whose son had reading problems and attended religious school. He was not improving with his reading even though they were trying to help him. She took him out and put him in public school. He is doing much better. Private and religious schools don't have special programs or education for students who need it.

And in my experience, in my area, private schools do a better job. The private school I graduated from sends 100% of its graduates to college, 10% to Ivy League schools. The last private school where I taught took the same standardized tests the public schools did and outscored them significantly.

The biggest difference? Parents. When they are involved, kids do well in school.

I had a Harvard graduate student work in my lab for the summer and he couldn't write a decent sentence. Neither Kerry or Bush were good students but because of their family wealth/influence they got into Yale. They has special accommodation. The average person can't without good marks, etc. Because of their contacts and Ivy League education they have a head start in our society. It's not fair nor wise.

I have to believe what you say but I'm not convinced your post is right. All the studies I found say that private schools aren't better. What standardized tests? SAT, ACT, etc.?

We have a public high school near me who had three students with a 100% score on their SATS. Do private schools take those tests too for college entrance? OK yes. But that's not the same as the other test through the grades, etc.

I graduated from a central public school in the country. It was a farm area. 80% went on to higher learning. Two in my class were top honor students at a large university. There were only 25 in my class since we were war babies. I just about had a private education.

I would say at least 90%.

We took all the college boards. SATs, PSATs, ACTs, and the other ones (can't remember what they called them) that were subject specific. I definitely came out of high school knowing how to take a test.

It is still the most expensive and exclusive private school in this area. All the prominent families in the city sent their kids to school there. I was a faculty brat and got to go on a scholarship since my dad was a teacher there. I now teach in the heart of the urban area so you can say I have definitely seen both ends of the educational spectrum in my city.

You know what the most predictive determinant of achievement is? Socio-economic status. Kids from wealthier families do better in school (and on those standardized tests) than kids from poor families. So the kids at my high school would have excelled wherever they went to school. They were from the upper of the upper income bracket. And the kids I teach are going to struggle no matter where they go to school since they are poor. I am not saying they can't excel, just that it is more of a challenge.

Families have a lot more to do with school success than schools do. Where I teach, family support is critical. WIthout it, kids fail.