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It's not Obama I'm mad at; it's way too many of you

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Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » GLBT

BR_Parkway

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Mon Dec-22-08 07:16 PM
Original message

It's not Obama I'm mad at; it's way too many of you

Only a portion of a much longer, absolutely must read diary:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/12/21/174451/88/444/675879

Why don't you tell them to reach out to us? We're the ones who have been wronged and harmed, disenfranchised, electro-shocked, had our kids taken away in ugly custody battles, lost our homes when our partner died, been thrown out of the hospital rooms of our lovers, had wills overturned and benefits denied. We're the ones who had our equality thrown up for a popular vote, and whose rights are denied us in the constitutions of 29 states. Telling us to reach out to them is like saying battered women need to reach out to their abusers, or children to the priest who molested them.

You lecture us not to hold this against Obama, but newsflash: at least for me, this has nothing to do with Obama. I knew he was regressive on my rights when I supported him; he always was, as was every viable presidential candidate. I also knew he had some weird idea that his religious beliefs were some valid explanation or even justification for his views on my civil rights. I'd like to see a Democrat get elected who can be for marriage equality and doesn't have to be a devout Christian, but I live in the reality based community and none, absolutely none, of this was any kind of surprise to me. I'm not a sulking scorned supporter who thinks Obama owes me something, and my support for him has not changed.

No, the people I'm mad at are some of YOU. I'm angry at your ignorance of our lives, for your complete lack of understanding of what a claim for equality under the law is, for telling us to shut up or quiet down or stop being angry or stop making trouble for the progressive movement or stop drawing negative attention to our party or Obama.

You call yourself a progressive and swear you're not a bigot? Well, if you're not with us, completely in support of our full and unconditional equality with straight citizens including marriage equality, then you're a progressive who's also a bigot -- even if your bigotry is a side-effect of your religion. And when bigots give advice to the people against whom they are bigoted, it is, at best, a form of concern-trolling. Your advice is not about us and our real best interests; it's about you.

<snip>

What we do as a movement now is in our hands, and those of our allies. If you're not one of them, shut up and get out of the way.

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yardwork

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Mon Dec-22-08 07:19 PM
Response to Original message

1. That's exactly how I feel.

Exactly. I've said it over and over again here.

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jesus_of_suburbia

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Mon Dec-22-08 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #1

11. Me too.

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enigmatic

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Mon Dec-22-08 07:21 PM
Response to Original message

2. great post

:thumbsup:

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ooglymoogly

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Mon Dec-22-08 07:31 PM
Response to Original message

3. Recommended with honor

Edited on Mon Dec-22-08 07:34 PM by ooglymoogly

though most of my anger is directed at O. He made this idiot mess.

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Cronus Protagonist

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Mon Dec-22-08 07:34 PM
Response to Original message

4. k & r

Sums it all up concisely.

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Maven

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Mon Dec-22-08 07:37 PM
Response to Original message

5. Excellent.

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Rhythm

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Mon Dec-22-08 07:39 PM
Response to Original message

6. Recommended with great enthusiasm...

I wish i had the gift for the written language that ChristieKeith does in that piece...

I plan to repost it in numerous locales (other sites), because it makes every point i have tried to make, but so much more eloquently.

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jonnyblitz

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Mon Dec-22-08 07:46 PM
Response to Original message

7. I am more annoyed by the apologists here at DU than Obama.

:kick:

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racaulk

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Mon Dec-22-08 07:49 PM
Response to Original message

8. That's exactly how I feel too.

If I weren't a DUer, I would likely still be disappointed in Warren giving the invocation, but I would be over it by now.

It's DU's reaction that has soured me so much to this situation.

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Chulanowa

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Tue Dec-23-08 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #8

26. It's a sort of self-perpetuating cycle

I, personally, don't feel that Rick Warren giving the invocation is such a big deal. I figure it's Obama's way of painting that asshole into a corner. I'm certain most of you don't agree with this, and that's fine, disagree till the cows come home. But over the last few days, I've been slathered with just about every nasty name in the book because of my position. My position that Warren's a complete jackass, but that Obama's not a gay-hating idiot has had be branded a homophobe by some which is, frankly, ludicrous, as I'm in full support of every bit of equal rights I've put my eyes on.

This has had the predictable result of me being pretty soured towards the people lobbing names at me. I admit I've been pretty rude myself at times in response to this... which in turn fuels your own irritation, and so it continues.

Getting angry at each other isn't how we get things done.

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NMMNG

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Mon Dec-22-08 07:54 PM
Response to Original message

9. Beautiful, and I wish I could recommend it more than once

:applause:

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Vincardog

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Mon Dec-22-08 08:36 PM
Response to Original message

10. What BR_Parkway said. If not now WHEN?

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Pacifist Patriot

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Mon Dec-22-08 08:55 PM
Response to Original message

12. Very well said!

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Roland99

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Tue Dec-23-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #12

42. Agreed

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readmoreoften

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Mon Dec-22-08 09:30 PM
Response to Original message

13. In the end, politicians can only get away with the bullshit the people are dumb enough to accept.

When it comes to issues of finance and war, where protest has real risk involved, it is understandably difficult to fight back due to the danger of taking a stand. If your dumb ass can't muster up enough truth to criticize an elected official on civil rights issues, you're one servile POS.

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Libertyfirst

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Mon Dec-22-08 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #13

14. Bravo! n/t

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jonnyblitz

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Mon Dec-22-08 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #13

15. this site is chock full of those dumb people.

there is a story mentioned in that piece with hyperlink provided that is quite sad about a 47 year old homeless transgendered woman who died from the cold on the streets of Austin because the Salvation Army wouldn't take her in to their shelter because they wouldn't acknowledge her gender identity as female and would have made her stay with the males.

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=8691

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bluedawg12

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Tue Dec-23-08 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #15

25. One just said that many gays are racist

after weeks of denate she does NOT get it.

Tonights winner:
........
attempt at sarcasm or freudian slip

Okay out with it..Many gays are racist! There, I said it. What you, and many here have demonstrated is your misguided attempt to blame blacks for prop. 8's passing and the Warren invitation just adds more fuel to the fire. Yes, it's true, there are many blacks who are church-going conservatives who do not believe in gay rights. "HOw could they"? you say, "after the discrimination they faced!"

The cold hard truth is that civil rights for whoever has to be fought for tooth and nail, it involves TRYING TO CHANGE PEOPLE'S MINDS, including bigots like Warren. It is easy to find a scapegoat. Black people are used to being scapegoated.

And save yourself the "OH you just don't get sarcasm" crap. You are obviously trying to make a point sacasm or not AND I GET IT. I took her stuff and I left-Hillary
..............

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shellgame26

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Tue Dec-23-08 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #25

76. I am the poster who wrote that

in response to post entitled: I don't think Blacks and Whites should get married

FIrst of all, I believe the person who posted that under the guise of sarcasm somehow feels blacks are to blame for gays not having equal rights. If not why even bring up that particular analogy. In his mind someone is to blame!

And yes, I do believe that there are many gays who are racist.

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flvegan

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Mon Dec-22-08 11:14 PM
Response to Original message

16. Shut up and get out of the way

That's going to be my new catch-phrase. Thanks.

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Zuiderelle

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Mon Dec-22-08 11:17 PM
Response to Original message

17. Great post.

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populistdriven

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Tue Dec-23-08 12:04 AM
Response to Original message

18. The bigot deserves our scorn, Obama is kind enough to drag him front and center for us

Edited on Tue Dec-23-08 12:06 AM by bushmeat

Now it is up to us to raise hell and expose him for his bigotry

Remember he represents millions of Americans

Amendments 8 and 2 didn't pass through vote fraud, people actually voted for them

He and his ilk preach hatred weekly

This is our time as progressives to make OUR voices heard

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yardwork

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Tue Dec-23-08 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #18

20. I agree on all points.

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keepCAblue

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Tue Dec-23-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #20

59. Mike Connell's company (OH election fraud) was hired by Yes on 8...

so, um, yeah, I think there is a very real likelihood some election fraud/vote tampering was involved in the Prop 8 election results. But, coincidentally or not, Connell is dead now. How awfully convenient.

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defendandprotect

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Tue Dec-23-08 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #18

49. I don't think we can be sure there was no vote fraud with Prop8.....

Amendments 8 and 2 didn't pass through vote fraud, people actually voted for them

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MNBrewer

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Tue Dec-23-08 12:07 AM
Response to Original message

19. I would love to put B.O. up on a pedestal

But I made that mistake in 1992 with Bill Clinton, and I won't do it again.

Fool me once, shame on me.

Fool me twice. Can't fool me again.

Or something like that. ;)

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snake in the grass

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Wed Dec-24-08 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #19

93. "you fool me you can't get fooled again"

A brilliant quote from the boy genius...

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AntiFascist

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Tue Dec-23-08 12:08 AM
Response to Original message

21. K&R, but this should be posted in GD:P, at your own risk n/t

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TechBear_Seattle

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Tue Dec-23-08 12:09 AM
Response to Original message

22. Very well written. n/t

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jgraz

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Tue Dec-23-08 02:19 AM
Response to Original message

23. K&R'd with extreme prejudice

:patriot:

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bluedawg12

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Tue Dec-23-08 02:31 AM
Response to Original message

24. Perfect!

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ColbertWatcher

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Tue Dec-23-08 06:16 AM
Response to Original message

27. Thank you for posting this. k+r, n/t

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HamdenRice

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Tue Dec-23-08 07:41 AM
Response to Original message

28. Delete

Edited on Tue Dec-23-08 07:42 AM by HamdenRice

Didn't realize this was in GLBT Forum. Clicked from Greatest.

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sundog

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Tue Dec-23-08 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #28

31. well hurry out & wash your hands good

wouldn't want you to catch anything

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QC

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Tue Dec-23-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #31

39. OMG!1! HES GOT FAGCOOTIES NOW!1!!!!

Edited on Tue Dec-23-08 11:46 AM by QC

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axollot

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Wed Dec-24-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #39

94. Damn FAGCOOTIES! I gave birth to a gay, now a young teenaged son.....I breed them!

Oh what would the RW and Rick Warrens say about *that*?
Cheers
Sandy

I have been given hell though for being supportive of my son, and I won't say 'choice' because it NEVER was HIS choice to be gay. I knew he was around about the age of 3 (his brother was 7 and could see it too). So when my young son asked me one day why I was different about him being gay than other parents - I had to explain that there are millions of people out there wanting to drag you down, if your own mother won't support 'who' you are -who will?

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PVnRT

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Tue Dec-23-08 07:58 AM
Response to Original message

29. While not gay,

it is the attitude of DUers that is pissing me off the most. The ignorance and arrogance around here are just too much to handle sometimes.

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awoke_in_2003

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Tue Dec-23-08 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #29

45. I am not gay, either...

before the Rick Warren debacle, I never gave much thought to marriage being a civil right. Several years ago Texas added a constitutional amendment defining marriage as being between a man and woman, which I voted against. I have sister who is in a long term relationship, but I never really thought about it much. But in the last few days I have read more bigotry here than in the last 7 I have been a lurker and then member. The bigots have converted me- but not in a way they would like. Marriage is a civil right and should be accessible for all.

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jesus_of_suburbia

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Tue Dec-23-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #45

50. thank you, my friend.

Those who choose to stand up for someone even though it doesn't effect them personally are the kindest, bravest souls.

You have empathy, and it is the Democratic strong point in my opinion.

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Dennis Donovan

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Tue Dec-23-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #29

67. I'm not gay, either - I'm afraid I do not have that honor...

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tekisui

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Tue Dec-23-08 08:26 AM
Response to Original message

30. KNR!

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sundog

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Tue Dec-23-08 08:37 AM
Response to Original message

32. good read

thanks for posting

stuff like this makes up for the 400+ reply garbage thread :)

i know its frustrating, but i don't think that the aggressive bigotry of a few here necessarily represents the majority on this site

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Hydra

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Tue Dec-23-08 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #32

33. No, and actually some of them are starting to "get it"

Keep up the pressure- silence is acceptance, and they want silence.

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TechBear_Seattle

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Tue Dec-23-08 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #33

35. Silence = Complicity

If you do not speak out against bigotry, you are not only condoning it, you are participating and perpetrating it as well.

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Rebubula

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Tue Dec-23-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #35

46. As a Straight man...

....with a multitude of gay friends in both genders - I agree. Silence = Complicity.

Fuck all the apologists and closet bigots.

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Deep13

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Tue Dec-23-08 09:17 AM
Response to Original message

34. Pretty much spells it out.

:applause: :woohoo: :fistbump:

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myrna minx

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Tue Dec-23-08 10:40 AM
Response to Original message

36. Excellent essay. K&R n/t

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tbyg52

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Tue Dec-23-08 11:14 AM
Response to Original message

37. Word. nt

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xchrom

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Tue Dec-23-08 11:34 AM
Response to Original message

38. recommend

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redqueen

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Tue Dec-23-08 12:19 PM
Response to Original message

40. K&R

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HillWilliam

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Tue Dec-23-08 12:29 PM
Response to Original message

41. Recommend with a kick!

What the OP said. I'm sick and tired of second-best, sick and tired of waiting for a "next time" that never-ever seems to get here, sick and tired of having my dignity and the dignity of my sisters and brothers stolen out from under us time and time again. And I'm damned sick and tired of mealy-mouthed apologetics. The ones who won't help need to get out of our way. If they won't get out of our way, then they can get run over. I'm tired of giving a damn, since they don't give a damn about us.

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Dystopian

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Tue Dec-23-08 12:32 PM
Response to Original message

43. KandR. Thank you for posting this.

I believe in love...

peace~

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Politicub

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Tue Dec-23-08 12:46 PM
Response to Original message

44. Well stated and captures how I feel

I don't hate Obama nor am I mad at him. I'm angry that people are telling GLBT and their allies to embrace bigotry in the name of unity. I'll never do that.

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JohnDoe_America

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Tue Dec-23-08 12:57 PM
Response to Original message

47. Great Post!

Who doesn't understand that this issue the at the core of everything we stand for as progressives. This is the most basic human right all people should have and to let someone tell us that their book tells them certain groups of people are not worthy of equal rights is absurd.

We need to challenge rules in books written centuries ago by ordinary men. In 2008 critical thinking human beings should be able to figure out what is right and what is wrong on their own without the need of bookish men and women. We don't need to take advice from people in the first century or earlier.

It is about time we moved on with a progressive message of equality and nonviolence.

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Bette Noir

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Tue Dec-23-08 01:08 PM
Response to Original message

48. I'm with you.

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defendandprotect

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Tue Dec-23-08 01:22 PM
Response to Original message

51. Wonderful post ...you can't say you support equality for all ....

and then honor people who are oppressors ....

And, I'll repeat this thought again -- I don't think we can be sure

there was no vote fraud. Remember some "religious" believers have

taken murderous action into their own hands to oppose abortion rights.

We saw immoral and murderous responses to human rights for African-

Americans from many in Bible-thumping areas ...

The Vatican and Mormon churches fought the Equal Rights Amendment with

tax-free dollars --

and the closest allies of the GOP-vote stealers have been these same

religious fanatics.

With a man in the White House who claimed his Christian "god" told him

to attack Afghanistan and Iraq, we have what looks like Crusades on two

Muslim nations.

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CheCheCheCheYerBooty

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Tue Dec-23-08 02:23 PM
Response to Original message

52. Fantastic thread!

My great aunt was sent to an asylum many years ago and endured torture (also known as shock therapy) for being a lesbian. My great grandfather sent her there and even considered having a lobotomy performed on her before my grand mother intervened and saved her. Her lover was jailed and committed suicide later.

This is a civil rights issue, make no mistake about it.

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varelse

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Tue Dec-23-08 02:39 PM
Response to Original message

53. K&R

It's definitely been eye-opening and educational to see the debate here on DU - and it's also been very painful.

Human rights are equal rights, by definition. We are *all* human. Count me as an ally.

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D23MIURG23

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Tue Dec-23-08 02:53 PM
Response to Original message

54. K&R

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sundog

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Tue Dec-23-08 02:57 PM
Response to Original message

55. up to 96 recommends now

:)

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RandomKoolzip

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Tue Dec-23-08 03:00 PM
Response to Original message

56. I don't know why so many liberals seem to want to be on the wrong side of history.

Either you support FULL equal rights for all humans NOW; or you're one of two things: a) pathetically timid, or b) a bigot. While y'all figure out which suit fits you better, here is one more liberal raising his voice in support of my GLBT friends and allies. :hi: :fistbump:

Heartily recommended.

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sundog

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Tue Dec-23-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #56

57. thanks man

:)

:hi:

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RandomKoolzip

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Tue Dec-23-08 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #57

58. Whoa.

I thought you were a snowman!

:hi:

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keepCAblue

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Tue Dec-23-08 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #56

60. So which one is Obama: a) "Pathetically timid" or b) "a bigot"....?

Perhaps there should be a third choice: c) both.

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JohnDoe_America

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Tue Dec-23-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #60

61. I think maybe a pathetically timid Democratic Leader like the rest...

It is really hard to keep pulling the lever for Dems when they themselves don't believe that the progressive message is the one true message of unity. It is about time our leaders push our progressive message of unity, equality, fairness and compassion. We don't have to legitimize their message of division and hate by giving them a platform.

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Stinky The Clown

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Tue Dec-23-08 04:13 PM
Response to Original message

62. Excellent. I am late to the party on ths one, but I am now rec #102.

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Obamalution

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Tue Dec-23-08 04:52 PM
Response to Original message

63. Oh...my goodness...

First of all, I'll disclose that I am a straight man...with gay friends...who agree with me that the corporate media is using this Rick Warren crap as a weapon of mass distraction...and a weapon of mass division (within the democratic party). So far, with the help of supposedly progressive tv and radio show hosts, they are succeeding in dividing the democratic party on this worthless wedge issue. What's progressive about division of the people?... It's an oxymoronic question. By the way, I know that this is the innauguration we're talking about here, but nevertheless it is still symbolic... It's not like Obama is hiring Rick Warren into his administration or anything close to it. I wonder why no one is talking about gay-FRIENDLY Joseph Lowery giving the benediction... It's because the corporate media doesn't WANT that to distract us from their weapon of mass distraction. Thank you.

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shellgame26

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Tue Dec-23-08 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #63

74. This is exactly what I've been trying to say

but apparently this means you're a bigot :shrug:

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celloise

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Tue Dec-23-08 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #63

78. Division ain't cool

I think you make an excellent point. I'm a big fan of equal rights for all and I'm not afraid to fight for it (even here in Alabama where libs are few and far between). But I really think Warren isn't the fight. The fight is what happens AFTER the inauguration. What O does with his political capital. I think he will work for the equality of the GLBT community. Give him a chance. If he doesn't fight for y'all, we fight like hell to change his mind. Until then, we have to see this whole Warren business as extremely offensive, but as solely a political choice. Also, don't let the media play you. They are so good at divide and conquer (just like the Repugs). Take heart, watch what develops, no more infighting, keep being progressive. That's the way I see it, and if I'm a bigot for it, so be it.

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tomm2thumbs

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Tue Dec-23-08 05:08 PM
Response to Original message

64. hear hear!!

nice post

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Terran

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Tue Dec-23-08 05:23 PM
Response to Original message

65. So I guess gay people like me

who are willing to settle for federally sanctioned civil unions in the meantime while we wait 20 or 50 years for marriage rights are bigots? Nice.

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Bluenorthwest

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Tue Dec-23-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #65

69. If you wish to wait, wait

but that is not my choice. I loves my family.
But seriously, no one is offering federal anything, so while you may wish to act like this here, my advice is that if you are ever in a negotiation that matters, let someone else do it. Like, if you are up for a raise, do not announce before the first offer how low you are willing to settle. Just a tip.
And if we all rush out and get you more rights than you'd like to have, feel free to set them aside for a few decades. Use 'em when you feel you deserve them, and not a moment sooner!

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MNBrewer

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Tue Dec-23-08 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #65

80. No, just someone who believes that separate can be equal

which it's not.

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Dennis Donovan

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Tue Dec-23-08 05:24 PM
Response to Original message

66. Recommended! It cannot be stated any better than this.

:thumbsup:

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NorthCarolina

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Tue Dec-23-08 05:42 PM
Response to Original message

68. Excellent K&R n/t

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sundog

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Tue Dec-23-08 05:58 PM
Response to Original message

70. kick

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Skittles

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Tue Dec-23-08 06:34 PM
Response to Original message

71. EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!!!!!

it's true - if you're not for complete equality for gay folk YOU'RE A BIGOT - a fact SO many DUers are reluctant to face

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davidthegnome

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Tue Dec-23-08 07:31 PM
Response to Original message

72. Great post

I just came from another forum where someone was talking about how California, "The world's center of homodom" (or some such thing) was about to go bankrupt. Now, naturally, he is a republican. But had I failed to speak out against the things he said, I would have been guilty of far too much complacency.

Keep fighting the good fight, I'll help as I can. Rick Warren is a piece of shit, and I for one, AM angry with Obama. As a straight man, I'd like to ask him what the hell he was thinking, if he was thinking at all. Who knows, maybe Warren will give him the "international civil rights medal" or some such thing.

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ThomCat

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Tue Dec-23-08 07:38 PM
Response to Original message

73. This is fantastic!

Could this get posted here without getting deleted as flamebait? Would this be considered not respectful enough of the DUers who aren't really our allies? :(

I have a feeling that thing things that really need to be said can't be said here.

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trickyguy

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Tue Dec-23-08 10:17 PM
Response to Original message

75. Progressive bigots. They don't really understand us or our lives.

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bertman

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Tue Dec-23-08 10:36 PM
Response to Original message

77. "You call yourself a progressive and swear you're not a bigot? Well, if you're not with us,

completely in support of our full and unconditional equality with straight citizens including marriage equality, then you're a progressive who's also a bigot -- even if your bigotry is a side-effect of your religion. And when bigots give advice to the people against whom they are bigoted, it is, at best, a form of concern-trolling. Your advice is not about us and our real best interests; it's about you."

This reads like something right out of the Republican playbook.

To call someone a bigot because they do not agree with your OPINION of whether Rich Warren should have been asked to offer a prayer is BIGOTRY in and of itself.

Reasonable people who fully support the rights of ALL people can disagree on many important and divisive issues, but that does not make them bigots for disagreeing.

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LeftyMom

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Tue Dec-23-08 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #77

79. Reading comprehension fail!

:eyes:

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Skittles

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Wed Dec-24-08 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #79

91. epic fail

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MNBrewer

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Tue Dec-23-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #77

81. Yep, Fail.

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celloise

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Tue Dec-23-08 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #77

82. Before you start throwing shoes ...

"If you're not with us, then you're against us" brings up visions of Cheney for me. It just doesn't work in a progressive society full of folks with different opinions. I temper this with the fact that I'm in an interracial marriage and I live in the South (a real double-whammy). I know all about fighting for civil rights. I also know that my state didn't overturn its anti-miscegenation laws until just a few years ago. I certainly believe that the Constitution contains a privacy right that applies to gay marriage. But we aren't getting anywhere with the divisive "bigot" name-calling! I want equal rights for the GLBT community NOW. But I don't think all who disagree with me are bigots. Some are ignorant, some are misled in the religious fashion, and all are entitled to their opinion. However, there is a HUGE difference between the bigots who are clearly against any form of equal rights for GLBT than progressives who are reticent in condemning the Warren pick full force. I just think, as posted above, that we need to wait until after the inauguration before judging Obama's actions on GLBT issues. Give him a chance to work for the GLBT community once he's actually in office before you start throwing the shoes.

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MNBrewer

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Tue Dec-23-08 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #82

83. THIS is the quote

"Well, if you're not with us, completely in support of our full and unconditional equality with straight citizens including marriage equality, then you're a progressive who's also a bigot"

Looks perfectly fine to THIS gay man. Either you believe that I get FULL, UNCONDITIONAL EQUALITY with straight citizens, or you believe that I don't.

You draw your own conclusions on what that makes you if you don't.

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celloise

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Tue Dec-23-08 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #83

84. I agree with that quote in its most basic sense...

Well, I totally do support equal rights now! But in the larger debate concerning Warren, progressives who adopt a wait and see approach to Obama's GLBT agenda, instead of immediately flaming him, don't deserve the name "bigot." That there is my point.

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MNBrewer

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Tue Dec-23-08 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #84

85. I don't know that I agree that that's what's happening

Wait and see, is fine. THat's what we're doing too.. so far though, signs are discouraging.

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celloise

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Tue Dec-23-08 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #85

86. Some are flamey, some aren't

I see we are on the same page concerning equal rights. I just read some of the above posts that were pretty harsh on some of the progressives who didn't immediately join the Obama flame-athon over the Warren pick.

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MNBrewer

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Tue Dec-23-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #86

87. To be fully clear

Obama doesn't believe that gay and lesbian citizens should have FULL, UNCONDITIONAL EQUALITY with straight citizens on the topic of marriage.

He believes that separate and equal is actually equal, but the problem is that separate is NEVER equal. He wants to leave it up the states...

What DOES happen to a dream deferred?

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pipi_k

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Wed Dec-24-08 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #83

100. I agree with

what Celloise said so well.

I am also completely for gay rights. Actually, equal Civil Rights for everyone.

I do not condone what Rick Warren has said.

But because I don't condemn his saying the Inaugural prayer, that doesn't give someone else the right to say I'm against them. It merely means that I'm seeing it as nothing more than a prayer given by a man who holds ideas and beliefs I think are repulsive.

Nothing more.

I understand your anger and your frustration. I would never tell you to just sit down and shut up.

Change WILL come, I believe that.

But it's not going to get here any faster by people running around calling others names like "homophobe" and "bigot"...especially those who are on your side for the rights but don't see this whole prayer issue with the same level of outrage as you do.

Do you think MLK fought so hard for equal rights by calling white people names? Some other blacks came out with the Angry Black Man message and (IMO) negatively affected their cause.

There are plenty of people out there who truly believe that everyone should have the same rights. Don't alienate us by calling us "bigots" or telling us that unless we're in total lockstep with you, we must be against you. Using guilt and shame and belittlement never works if you're trying to drum up support for your cause.

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bertman

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Wed Dec-24-08 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #100

103. Thank you, pipi_k. My sentiments precisely.

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NWHarkness

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Wed Dec-24-08 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #82

89. Why should we even have to consider what Obama might do?

Why the hell shouldn't it be a given that he fully supports equality for all Americans?

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RetiredTrotskyite

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Wed Dec-24-08 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #89

95. A Damned Good Question...

but one that I doubt you will ever get an honest answer to. Or if it is, it will be made perfectly clear that we count only for money and votes.

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bluedawg12

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Wed Dec-24-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #95

99. Judging by the donation police - we are to be silent: money and votes.

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bluedawg12

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Wed Dec-24-08 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #77

97. Reasonable people who fully support the rights of ALL people

cannot support partial civil rights for some people...reasonably.

See?

It makes them bigots for not supporting civil rights for a minority.

Easy.

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bertman

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Wed Dec-24-08 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #97

104. Bullshit. Pure and simple.

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MNBrewer

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Thu Dec-25-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #97

105. Truth

If you believe in total, complete, full, actual equality under the law, then that's it! TOTAL, COMPLETE, FULL AND ACTUAL.

Anything less is NOT that. If you support anything less than that, or politicians who BELIEVE in anything less than that, then you're being a hypocrite by claiming that you support total, complete, full and actual equality. And, perhaps reasonably, from the perspective of the person being denied the rights, a bigot.

I know bigot isn't a nice word to hear applied to one's self, but neither is "separate but equal", or "wait, your time is coming, as soon as all these other things are taken care of first."

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smoogatz

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Tue Dec-23-08 11:29 PM
Response to Original message

88. He's not reaching out.

He's dividing the religious right, and pitting the fundie generations against each other.

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Fearless

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Wed Dec-24-08 12:56 AM
Response to Original message

90. Completely missed the point.

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Name removed

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Wed Dec-24-08 07:10 AM
Response to Original message

92. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

closeupready

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Wed Dec-24-08 10:08 AM
Response to Original message

96. I'm sure others have said this, but personally, I'm mad at Obama, too.

He doesn't get a get-out-of-jail-free card from me.

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Night_Nurse

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Wed Dec-24-08 10:11 AM
Response to Original message

98. Kickin' it... agree 110% nt

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Cherchez la Femme

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Wed Dec-24-08 12:32 PM
Response to Original message

101. Kick

too late to rec :(

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ponky616

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Wed Dec-24-08 01:18 PM
Response to Original message

102. black and white

very few issues in life are black and white....
civil rights?....thats one of them.....
you either have them or you don't...
i don't....

it breaks my heart....

i'm lucky enough to have something valid to fight for....

i fight everyday....
you would think it would be exhausting.....
its not....
its essential for my state of well being.....

UNTIL THE FIGHT IS WON!!!!....

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