This Is Not the Last Warren Thread I’ll Ever Write - But May Be a New Idea.

I have read more than one thread where the argument against outrage at the planned Warren invocation is stated as, “ But it is only a few minutes on the podium, what’s the big deal?”

Someone usually replies, “ But it’s symbolism! It reflects an undeserved honor.”

Invariably, that argument is met with some version of, “ Get over it, it’s just a prayer!”

However, the reasons given by PE Obama himself for the selection and invitation of Warren is loaded with symbolism.

1.) A return favor for inviting then candidate Obama to debate McCain at Saddleback Church. Symbolism? Check!

2.) That “dialogue” at Saddle Back, which was in reality a debate, and PE Obama tells us that dialogue is, “part of what my campaign's been all about...” Symbolism? Check!

3.) PE Obama tells us, that the Warren invitation will set the tone for his administration, creating “an atmosphere where we can disagree without being disagreeable.” Symbolism? Check!

4.) Further, PE Obama postulates, that a climate of civil dialogue will then allow his administration to, “focus on those things that we hold in common as Americans.” Symbolism? Check!

So, we see symbolism in the Warren selection.

We are told the exact meaning of the symbolism by the President Elect, himself.

Yet, when we disagree with the meaning of the symbolism, we are told by some, “Hey, it means nothing. It’s not symbolic of anything. It’s just a prayer.”

Schizophrenogenic! It make one crazy.

Most of us know the arguments about why we disagree with the meaning of that symbolism. No need to revisit that at the moment.

We in the gay community, broadly speaking, know that the invitation is symbolic.

We know that, how we see that symbolism and the official version are at mismatch.

In fact, that difference of opinion is the source of a great deal of our frustration.

Putting that aside, there may be another, larger, question.

Why does the invocation and benediction have to be political and loaded with political symbolism? Because it surely is. Most of us see it.

Warren the pro- Prop8 invocator balanced by the good guy, Reverend Joseph Lowery, with his “progressive record on LGBT issues.”

Why does the Invocation and Benediction, if there must be such things at a civil function, have to be laden with political meaning?

To those who ask us, “Well, who would you want there, some progressive? Some openly gay pastor?”

Not necessarily.

If we must call down a higher power with an invocation and if we must bless the inauguration with a benediction, fine.

However, why couldn’t those functions be performed by some humbler servants of a higher power, without all of the Byzantine political subtext and political symbolism?

Perhaps the pastor of a small church, a local parish priest, a Rabbi from a small congregation, an Imam from a local mosque or perhaps a Pagan priest/ess? One, two or all of them?

If we absolutely feel the need to mix Church and State, then why not keep the political symbolism and political sub-text out of a purely spiritual activity?

Having mixed the spiritual with the civil- secular and by allowing “political symbolism” to creep into it, the politics of the thing has overshadowed the spiritual aspect and we now fight like a pack of dogs over a bone as to what the political message really is.

Because the political aspect is symbolic and being purely symbolic it is politically non- functional.

It is not to be confused with real dialogue.

It says nothing about the potential for civil discourse at a later time.

What it says is, that this is a symbolic honor to an open enemy of a segment of voters and the invocation is incidental to raising Warren’s public profile. Now that’s politics!

I think that’s why this Warren thing has backfired, to a large extent. A spiritual function became politicized.

Thoughts?

in church. Obama has a serious pastor problem!

I wonder if he sees "Church" as, in addition to whatever his personal beliefs may be, as a political tool?

An over lapping of functions?

Add to that his "girlie dog" off the cuff remark, together to his turning a deaf ear to our pain on the Warren selection (and the cries of the Gazans), and I am keeping my protest sign handy.

the problem for the GLBTIQ community, being out of the loop, we don't know what is behind it in full meaning.

It would have been better, if idealistic, to have no symbolism and purely spiritual meaning.

When it comes to Prop8 and playing politics with people's lives? No. I'll be disagreeable. This isn't like we disagree over which color to paint the bedroom.

it's not going to make things better. :sarcasm:

It's gone past disagreement, by at least a decade, or more.

Edit: adding sarcasm emoticon.

On consideration, those words are troubling.

That does NOT mean change. The things Americans hold in common, are not pro- gay civil rights, the opposite from what I am seeing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8039154&mesg_id=8040053

but didn't explain it half so well.

This whole thing just points up the importance of the separation of church and state. The founding fathers were Deists and the prevailing ceremonies they used tended to be Masonic. (I'd actually prefer it if we went back to this.)

I don't really have any good answers to the questions. I think Obama tried to have it both ways in his selection of these two pastors. Anybody he picked would have created some political narrative. But I think you are right, pastors with a lower profile might have been more fitting.

Good post.

I understand there is tradition involved, so if they have invocations and benedictions fine.

But, under these circumstances, and with that explanation from a very astute man, I resent being told it means nothing.

We've had 8 years of up is down and down is up, maybe just a little shell shocked by anything with a whiff of spin at the moment.

what is happening to the Economy is really the major issue affecting everyone, and that's not likely to improve the minute Obama takes office (although I hope I'm wrong about this). Having people discussing or fighting over religious issues keeps them from dwelling on everyday life. War, and particularly world war, is the ultimate distraction.

On the other hand, my guess is that he is up to his @ss in alligators, as they say.

dumbya has left him a flaming mess of a world. I suspect that in addition to a crash course in POTUS work, and PDB's and all of the issues made worse or neglected, or even made much worse, when dumbya actually paid attention to them, that there is so much to work on that the Warren issue was supposed to be a sleeper. A tiny detail on a long list of things to do and forgotten. Normally, in times before the inter net, this sort of thing got by most people. However, while I understand that there is a world and a nation to run and I suspect he will do that ably,that's why I voted for him, it is for that exact reason that gays and supporters have to keep fighting. Or we will get swept under the rug, while the social conservatives whittle away at our humanity.

Gee, AF, rather, philosophical for a little bluedawggy on a Sunday night. LOL.:toast:

Ya' know, time will tell.

If that IS the case, the GLBT community is in some deep trouble. It may not be implied by an Obama administration or even condoned, but the GLBT community will take some serious heat in the form of violence. We'll be made scapegoats and attacked relentlessly. We already are now, but it will be compounded by the pitting against each other of communities. Our community will be the small minority that cannot shake the attacks.

the disdain he express towards Gays is palpable , Tim kaine replacing Dean is another example af an opportunity to shit on Gays.

Tim sure seems like a telling choice for party chief.

I can't get those Obama words out of my mind, they sounded so much like Arnold and his "girlie men" comments.

feminist and other gay friends as well.

what's happening here is our 'liberal allies' have thrown a wall up between us and the discrimination and bigotry we KNOW we face.

we KNOW people in cali who voted FOR obama voted YES on 8.

we KNOW people make light of our discrimination by describing us as narcissistic or whatever terms people like to use for 'gay white males'.

make no doubt we have been ostracized and pushed to the back -- at least here.

we'll see out there.

that if they dump the support for gays, tighten up abortion, dump stem cells ( low level of interest for many, IMHO, anyway, so a token)dump labor and unions, they can unite the red and blue states into one big happy unified nation.

The reverse of Nixon's southern strategy, where race was the bait they used to lure southern dems into the repig fold.

After they are finished kicking us to the curb, they'll start on those other groups you mentioned. They are already doing it now, but so many in those groups aren't speaking up. We, the GLBT community and our allies, are being heard because we are speaking out. We have done a great job on that so far.

Why women's groups and Jewish groups aren't speaking out is beyond me. They will have to face a hostile Democratic Party by themselves if they do not start speaking up soon, because we will eventually have to leave the party at this rate. I don't see a "place" for us "at the table" in the future with this extreme rightward slant.

It's fucked up if you think about it, that the rest of the civilized world has moved more progressive while America is moving EVEN FURTHER to the right now that a Democratic president has been elected. Based on values alone and not "parties," we are going to continue to be a laughing stock in the world at large, because the values being espoused are more of the same that Bush gave us.

Who knew the "change" we would get would be the insulting "penny tip" for our years of service in the Democratic Party? I certainly HOPE that's not the case, but it is looking more and more like it is.

They HAD to have planned this. The cards have been dealt now. We do have some great straight allies both here on DU and outside of DU. It's only a matter of time, though before DU will have NO GLBT forum at all and no Democratic message board has a GLBT forum. Mark my words on that.

Maybe it's high time we went ahead and started looking into the Green Party. They actually DO support us. As other traditionally progressive communities are kicked under the bus, the Green Party will start to grow anyhow. We might as well get the infrastructure for that growth in place.