Parents and I (gmother) are debating putting 7 yr. old

in scouting, for obvious reasons. He loves the out doors and the Boy Scouts have programs that really fit for him. Any feed back would be appreciated.

The Boy Scouts is a bigoted anti-gay organization. If you're fine with that, stick him in scouts. Otherwise, there are other organizations that aren't bigoted.

We have a problem with scouts, otherwise I would not be asking for assistance.

we talked about this last night at dinner (putting him in scouts) I thought I might get some good ideas from those directly effected by BSofA anti-gay stance. I also have a problem with their rw religious views.

The National Boy Scouts is homophobic, but locally I think the organizations tend to reflect their communities. It could be a good group for him to enjoy those activities and make friends with kids he has a lot in common with.

up the local heaad, meet and greet.

the group to make changes. We will see has it goes.

i could be wrong but maybe someone else will give more info.

My 9-year-old son is in a troop that focuses on developing skills and having fun more than the religio-fascist elements.
on edit...
My son is also an avowed atheist and supporter of gay rights and he fits right in. I hope BSA can be reformed from the ground up.

churches.

and then find out the group is not for him and have to pull him out.

http://www.spiralscouts.org for example--or for that matter, Boys Clubs, or the YMCA.

The Scouts are not "just" homophobic--they're more or less an arm of the Mormon Church in much of the country these days.

Couldn't go any further with that link without signing in. I wanted to search our area for the Spiral Scout group here.

:thumbsup:

the organization that was the Camp Fire Girls?

It's been co-ed since I was a kid, at least (I'm 28, so that was a while back.) I was in Camp Fire in the 80s, as was my baby sister. My group was all girls, but I helped out with my younger sister's group and they were roughly a 50/50 mix.

and then Camp Fire Girls, 2nd grade - 6th grade, while most girls joined Brownies and Girl Scouts. Our groups never had any type of religious elements (other than Wo He Lo - Work Health Love - Worship God, Give Service, Seek Beauty, Pursue Knowledge, Be Trustworthy, Hold onto Health, Glorify Work, Be Happy!)

We did a lot of camping where we would earn most of our patches, and we did community service type activities. After losing my mom when I was 7, it was what kept me going. Honestly, I don't know what I would have done without them.

It's nice to know they are now co-ed and still a good organization. :) I'd recommend them, based on my experience.

That was started by Pagans tired of the Christofascism of the Boy Scouts. They are welcoming and accepting of everyone. Fantastic organization, I helped out with a troop when I lived in AZ.

Are they nonreligious in their programs?

Their programs are nonreligious (they're actually a stickler about that), the troop I helped out with was a mix of Pagans, Christians and a couple of atheist families.

Thank you for your help.

My kids did it awhile and it's a good program.

Did me worlds of good. Very project and skill oriented, with outdoorsy group activities.

some good information for you. This group was started out here in Northern California by a straight young man who was fed up with BSA's discrimination. Here's a link to their website:

http://www.scoutingforall.org/

providing chances for all youth has gone so far afield of its potential. Looked at the site. Thanks.

I am an Eagle Scout. It has been some 20 years since I was involved in Scouting. I was in 2 different troops.

Both troops were sponsored by a church. The church had zero involvement with our troop, and vice versa. The only relationship between the two that I was ever aware of was the fact that we got to use their building, storage room, and playground.

My family was not religious growing up, and we did not go to church. Religion was never brought up in the troops I was involved in, other than we recited the Scout Oath and Scout Law at every meeting which are:

Scout Oath:
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

Scout Law:
A Scout is Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

I always found Scouting to be religiously ambiguous, because they allowed for the practice of any religion. They did not care which God you worshiped, so long as you worshiped one. To me, one superstition is as good as another, so you could easily make up a deity, such as the Flying Spaghetti Monster if you needed one in order to fit in.

Personally, I just never said anything about religion and on the rare occasions where a blessing was said before eating or a campfire closing or some such I just went along to get along. I remember being uncomfortable about it but it did not especially bother me. Like last weekend we were invited to a neighbor's house for a Memorial Day dinner. They held hands and prayed before dinner. My family did the same thing - I certainly was not going to get all indignant about their superstitions as a guest in my their house.

As for the homosexual thing, we had one gay kid in our troop. He never fit in and was picked on or talked about incessantly. All the kids knew he was gay (even though he was only about 11-12 years old) and had made a song about him, complete with stereotypical lisp. Eventually he was physically assaulted and left the troop. As a youth leader at the time I tried to stop this but, having dealt with bullying my whole childhood as well I knew it was a lost cause. I know I failed that kid in that I should have done even more to help him but honestly I don't know what I could have done differently. Kids are simply vicious. They tear into anyone who is different, whether you are smart, wear different clothes, talk different, whatever. If you are different you are going to be ostracized. Maybe the day will come that children will be open and accepting to all even when the adults' backs are turned, but I doubt it.

None of this had anything to do with Official Boy Scout Policy. If the adults knew or suspected that this kid was gay nothing was ever said.

So, in closing, I think Scouting is a great, wholesome activity. It was a ton of fun, and some of the most physically demanding things I have ever done. I hope my son will want to be involved in Scouting.

But if you have a child who is gay, you will have your hands full making sure he fits in, no matter what official policy may say. Scouting aside, I don't know how such kids survive the isolation of their adolescence being gay.

I would not want my gson to ever be a part of such evil ostracism, on either side. I know that almost all adults have gone through something like this, either as part of the pack of attackers or as one who has been attacked.

"None of this had anything to do with Official Boy Scout Policy. If the adults knew or suspected that this kid was gay nothing was ever said." Isn't the policy now to oust gay boys?

"None of this had anything to do with Official Boy Scout Policy. If the adults knew or suspected that this kid was gay nothing was ever said." Isn't the policy now to oust gay boys?

It probably was then, too. But we are talking about a 12 year old here. He may not have even realized he was gay. He was just very effeminate and, in the eyes of the rest of the kids, a "sissy". I happen to know he actually was gay because I know that when he grew up he did turn out to be gay. It's not like he came out one day and told everyone he was gay. That would be met with the same reaction as coming out as an atheist.

This is kind of why I think the whole "sexuality" thing in Scouting is overblown. It's just not a common subject of conversation. Oh, sure, you get a bunch of teenage boys together and we told dirty jokes and talked about sex, but most of us didn't know what the hell we were talking about. There was certainly no official discussion of sex and certainly no inquisition - "Are you straight?!? Are you gay!?!". Same thing with religion.

I am hopeful that this would not happen now.

Myself, I have no such hope at all. I think it's the ingrained nature of children to ostracize those who are different. Maybe it is some ancient genetically-embedded defense mechanism or something, I don't know. All I know is a kid's #1 yearning is to "belong". And when they find someone who doesn't belong, they all collectively reinforce their own sense of belonging by attacking the one who doesn't fit in. I think they all get a sense of positive feedback in their collective sense of hatred. Plus it makes them feel better about themselves that they are not "like that other weird guy". When their sense of worth is derived from the name brand of their clothing that sense of worth is emphasized and reinforced when the kid not wearing it gets torn down because of it.

It's all about conformity. And if you don't conform, you had better be very very strong and have a good support network elsewhere.

I have a difficult time believing that the adults in the situation did not have a clue about what was going on.

We adults have to model the behavior we wish the children in our lives to follow, we also need to respectfully let the children know that certain behaviors will not be tolerated. And when we see intolerable behavior, we need to act swiftly and appropriately, to stop the negative behavior.

I tried getting adults involved in my bullying problems as a kid. All that does is make you even MORE ostracized. Now, in addition to whatever else was different about you to earn you the bullying, you are are also a snitch.

And even if and when the adults get involved, all that happens is the bullying goes "underground". You get home and find "fag" written on your bookbag or somesuch, and of course no one has a clue who did it. You're walking down the hall and suddenly your books fly out of your arms all over the floor and when you look to see who did it everyone is grinning but no one says a word. My mother sat on the school bus with me and sat in on one of my problem classes with me. Of course everyone was an angel then. The next day was twice as bad. Now not only was I a nerd who dressed funny but I was also a "momma's boy" and a tattle-tale, too.

About the only hope I see for bullying victims in this day and age is that thankfully we have micro-miniature surveillance tools available to reccord audio and video of these kinds of events. Most adults that I went to with my bullying problems were indifferent to my problem and simply had a "kids will be kids" attitude about it. And without any proof of wrongdoing, the bullies were consequently never punished. Recording these kids in the act might go a long way to stopping it.

This is a great article on bullying:

http://www.robertringer.com/bullying.html

The guy is obviously anti-teacher and anti-union, but the bulk of his analysis about bullying is square-on, in my opinion.

My point was, it is the adults' responsibility to recognize what is going on, and to stop it. Period.

And adults turning the other way and saying they do not know how to stop it is a copout. Plain and simple.

>>>I tried getting adults involved in my bullying problems as a kid. All that does is make you even MORE ostracized. Now, in addition to whatever else was different about you to earn you the bullying, you are are also a snitch.>>>>>

The victim is indeed caught a web of contradictions if the adults allow this to happen. That's why it's up to the *adults* to proactively deal with it. This should be done done as part of the broader socialization process.

We teach kids not to steal from the get go; and ... for the most part... they don't. And if they DO it's sort of a furtive, shameful occasion. Not publicly celebrated the way gay-bashing and 'nerd'- bullying is, i.e. as a means of establishing 'belonging' to the larger group.

Adults cannot make children NOT be children; but we CAN civilize and socialize them. We can mitigate, though not eliminate the kinds of abuse you've described.

Where there's a will there's a way. What's missing, seems to me , is the will.

my oldest son was just asking me about whether the boy scouts were discriminatory para military assholes and i told him YES. I have a grandson and he was wondering what organization he could join that was inclusive. now I have some names. peace
out

about almost anything you need to know.

Went to one orientation. At the usually gay-friendly local Presbyterian Church. ( I don't believe they're allowed to meet in public schools in NYC any more because of their political ( anti-gay) and religious character.

Anyway, the head guy said all this fuss over homosexuality was a red-herring 'cause in all the years he'd been a scoutmaster not a single kid had ever approached him for advice/counseling about being gay.

I wonder why.

Anyway, I mostly made faces and looked around the room befuddled. Turns out the lad was not keen on scouting anyway, so he didn't join. It was mostly my idea from the beginning. I though it would be good fo him.

I do like the *idea* of scouting; too bad they have to mangle it with all the political and religious nonsense.

Someone upthread mentioned the "Scouting for All" website. I looked into that... not many resources that I know of in this area ( NYC).

Mega thanks for the informative thread.

to target six-year-olds at my son's school during their lunch period. The problem is that my son has two gay parents, and our family is atheist. They wouldn't let him be a Scout even if he *wanted* to, due to the religious thing, and we wouldn't let him be a Scout because of potentially derogatory messages that he might hear about homosexuality. I told her that if she wanted to let the Scouts recruit during school hours (because apparently, that's okay here) fine, but she'd damned well better send home a letter AHEAD of time to let us know so we can keep him home that day. He was devastated--he came home SO excited, babbling on about getting to be a Boy Scout and go camping, fishing, hiking, etc. with the other Scouts, and we had to explain to our six-year-old WAY too early that there are people in the world who hate us for our religious beliefs and our sexuality, and that those people wouldn't LET him be a Boy Scout.

He was innocent until that day. I was hoping to put off his exposure to discrimination in a "real" way for as long as possible, but that idiotic, thoughtless principal forced us to explain Hate to him MUCH earlier than we should have had to. He's still a little bitter about it.

Your choices are your own, of course, but I wouldn't let my kid near the Boy Scouts for all the money in the world. Individual Scout dens might be okay, but they DO contribute to the overall financial solvency of the BSA, whether directly or indirectly via carrying on the "brand." I'd rather just buy my kid a Shakespeare Ugly Stick and some tackle and take him on a camping/fishing/hiking trip with some of his friends myself. I can teach basic survival and first aid. I was a Girl Scout, and WE didn't discriminate, period.

:hi: