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Since we aren't being "reasonable", let's look at the brief:

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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 10:15 AM
Original message
Since we aren't being "reasonable", let's look at the brief:
The courts have followed this principle, moreover, in relation to the validity of marriages performed in other States. Both the First and Second Restatements of Conflict of Laws recognize that State courts may refuse to give effect to a marriage, or to certain incidents of a marriage, that contravene the forum State's policy. See Restatement (First) of Conflict of Laws § 134; Restatement (Second) of Conflict of Laws § 284.5 And the courts have widely held that certain marriages performed elsewhere need not be given effect, because they conflicted with the public policy of the forum. See, e.g., Catalano v. Catalano, 170 A.2d 726, 728-29 (Conn. 1961) (marriage of uncle to niece, "though valid in Italy under its laws, was not valid in Connecticut because it contravened the public policy of th state"); Wilkins v. Zelichowski, 140 A.2d 65, 67-68 (N.J. 1958) (marriage of 16-year-old female held invalid in New Jersey, regardless of validity in Indiana where performed, in light of N.J. policy reflected in statute permitting adult female to secure annulment of her underage marriage); In re Mortenson's Estate, 316 P.2d 1106 (Ariz. 1957) (marriage of first cousins held invalid in Arizona, though lawfully performed in New Mexico, given Arizona policy reflected in statute declaring such marriages "prohibited and void")."


So attorneys cite case law using examples where states have overruled marriages they have deemed illegal; one for incest, one for underage, and another for 1st cousin incest. The brief implies that the states have valid reasons for denying these marriages. And the examples are used in a brief supporting the right of states to create these barriers.

So how is a reasonable person not supposed to conclude that the brief writers and the very government itself believes that the obstacles put in front of incest and child-marriage are on the same plane as the barriers against same-sex marriage?

How is this not implying that same-sex marriage and incestuous marriage are both equally valid reasons for a state to deny a marriage license?

Well, there's no way it's *not* implying that. It *is* implying that. And we have every right to be incensed that such an argument would be used against us. I, for one, am NEVER going to stop speaking out about this. I don't care how many cheerleaders insist it's some chess play and Obama really has our best interests at heart. And it takes time. And he's really, really busy. Fuck that . . . fuck the DOJ . . . and for the sake of thread preservation, I'll skip the rest.




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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
1. Any lawyer worth their salary can make a strong argument in either
direction and cite cases to support that argument. They chose to go the way they did.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. And even had strategy sessions to decide on the course.
And nowhere in all of that did it occur to anyone that maybe this wasn't the best way to go. Wow.
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
36. An argument, maybe... A strong argument, I don't think so. The argument cited above is...
Edited on Mon Jun-15-09 07:28 AM by GodlessBiker
insulting, not strong.
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panader0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
3. At 54 pages it doen't seem like a "brief" to me.
A bunch of homophobic legal mumbo-jumbo was my opinion when I read it yesyerday. Perhaps the outrage the brief is producing will open some minds to the discrimination against the gay community.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. There's a lot in there to digest.
Most of it is legal citations. The real meat isn't quite that long. But there are a lot of points and implications to digest. I'm sure we've only scratched the surface of all the homophobic shit in there.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Or, give fuel for future litigation against marriage equality cases.
Very damaging in a gratuitous way.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
5. Part 1 - use these to demonstrate that States have an inherent interest
in regulatng who has an inalienable right to marriage.

So, they use the most extreme examples, of non-suspect minorities that are not analogous to gays as a suspect minority and not due strict scrutiny under law.

Then, they, dismiss the analogy to Loving v Va.

>>Loving v. Virginia is not to the contrary. There the Supreme Court rejected a contention that the assertedly "equal application" of a statute prohibiting interracial marriage immunized the statute from strict scrutiny. 388 U.S. 1, 8, 87 S.Ct. 1817, 18 L.Ed.2d 1010 (1967). The Court had little difficulty concluding that the statute, which applied only to "interracial marriages involving white persons," was "designed to maintain White Supremacy" and therefore unconstitutional. Id. at 11. No comparable purpose is present here, however, for DOMA does not seek in any way to advance the "supremacy" of men over women, or of women over men. Thus DOMA cannot be "traced to a . . . purpose" to discriminate against either men or women. Personnel Adm'r v. Feeney, 442 U.S. 256, 272, 99 S. Ct. 2282, 60 L.Ed.2d 870 (1979). In upholding the traditional definition of marriage, numerous courts have expressly rejected an alleged analogy to Loving.<<

It does, however, seek to establish supremacy of heterosexuality over "homosexuality" as far as equal rights and justice.

This brief was as if written by someone from Liberty U. and went way beyond upholding an existing law.
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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
6. Funny how Obama can take time out from playing chess for some things but not others
And I say OBAMA because it is HIS administration and he is ultimately responsible for the outrage of this brief.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. The attempt to divorce DOJ from Obama is lame.
"Oh, but we've always WANTED the President to distance himself from DOJ! He's doing what we WANT!"

Well, except when it comes to the Democratic party leadership basically commanding the DOJ NOT to prosecute the Torturer in Chief. THAT kinda "interference" seems to be A-OK.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Either he is not in control or he is in favor of this.
Edited on Sat Jun-13-09 10:45 AM by bluedawg12
Neither option is palatable.

Their brief went way beyond what was needed to "uphold the law."
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I'm thinking the latter.
Which makes me really sad.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
12.  Why would a party in power turn on a segment of it's own base?
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Melted-Wings--Icarus-And-by-Jon-Faulkner-090612-334.html

Melted Wings - Icarus And The Democrats
by Jon Faulkner


Progressives may as well get used to the idea that, in four years, the presidency will go back to the republicans. The Democratic Congressional Majorities, if not replaced, will be reduced. It doesn‘t matter because the majorities are paralyzed anyway. House Speaker Pelosi, checkmated by her own involvement as a cheerleader for torture, is worse than useless. Voters are impressed with strong, assertive leadership, whether it is right or wrong. The republicans, never ones to let an opportunity, real or construed go by, have wasted no time in resting the blame for the economic collapse squarely on Obama’s unresisting shoulders. The question begs. Why would a man devote his entire adult life to politics, then rise to the highest level of his profession, only to cower before the advance of a weakened and outnumbered enemy? Cowardice leaps to mind, but Obama’s agenda is probably more servile than simple cowardice allows.

<snip>

Americans richly deserve everything they’re going to get. Those in the progressive community, who held such high hopes for an Obama Presidency, should not have been surprised by Obama’s sudden reversals. After the Supreme Court decided that any election in which Gore was the winner was unconstitutional the “words of the prophets were written on the subway walls” were dismayingly precient. The dismay of the progressive community will echo long after the democratic party has passed on. In 1713 Joseph Addison, and English essayist wrote “he who hesitates is lost.” The Democratic Party’s Representatives do not represent progressives, and haven’t for some time. The republicans however, do represent their base, no matter how ignorant or loony they are. The republicans will always win because no matter how contorted or unjust their message, they at least, know where they want to lead.


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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Politically, you do that when they become more of a liability than an asset
It's fine when we're all just big money pots, but when it comes time to step up to the plate, suddenly we're not so valuable.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Wow, there must have been a lot
of liabilities.


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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. Because they would like to trade us in, raiding the GOP base of religious fucktards:
gathering up the Evangelicals, the family values Nazis, the antichoice misogynists, the snake handlers. They don't need to be told that such people will never stop attacking us since we're Eeeevil incarnate, and you can't have both open queers and bloodthirsty queerbashers in the same party (duh). We don't get traded to the Republicans. We just get dropped in order to attract a Republican constituency.

Civil rights for gay people mean nothing to their main sponsors, corporate America. We bought their corporate shit before, back when we had no rights and no expectation of winning our rights, just like we do now. Having civil rights is not necessary for consumerism. There's no imperative coming down from the Democratic Party's owners to help us that would overrule the strategists' desire to throw us to the fundagelical wolves.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. Yes, as has been stated by posters right here on DU.
We have to appease that portion of the electorate the "pushed Obama over the top." Meanwhile, fuck those who actually believed in his campaign and his promises and walked the neighborhoods and made phone calls and gave money.

What idiots we've been.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Perpetual war needs
enemies and scapegoats.

red...green...blue...what to do...what to do?
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Which bring up another question for me...
"....the Evangelicals, the family values Nazis, the antichoice misogynists, the snake handlers."

Which brings up another question -- did Obama ever make a public statement about the death of Dr. Tiller, including a reaffirmation of a woman's right to choose and federal prosecution of domestic terrorists who seek to assasinate/bomb/shut down women's clinics?

I'm just trying to keep track of how many supporters Obama has tossed under the bus now that the Oval Office is his. I predicted women and gays would be the first (but admit the scope of his betrayals -- from issues regarding wiretapping, disclosure, mining law, et al -- is either breathtaking or the height of unmitigated gall).
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-14-09 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. Yes, here: (no reaffirmation or prosecution language)
"I am shocked and outraged by the murder of Dr. George Tiller as he attended church services this morning. However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion, they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Statement-From-The-President-On-The-Murder-Of-DR-George-Tiller/



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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
11. LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!11!!!1
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. !
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. HOW FUCKING DARE YOU!!1!!!!1
:cry:
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. But... but... I'm a pragmatist.
It's a dog sit on dog world.

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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. LOL! n/t
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. No rain...no rainbows.
*snurk*

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Duncan Grant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
16. This defense is meticulously calibrated for maximum impact.
I expect Obama to use it for political cover.

The Prez: The DOJ has prepared a lengthly and historic brief -- (blah, blah, blah) -- therefore, against my own personal convictions, I must follow this proscribed course. We will seek other resolutions to this matter. Moments like this reaffirm our faith in this great experiment in democracy. Yes we can. Hope and Change. Cotton candy is a vegetable... (cue music for 2012 campaign)
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. It's the gift that keeps on giving
and makes the case for the right.

"You see, this is the problem with what Obama did to our community last night. He can talk all he wants about helping us get our civil rights (well, in fact, notice the Justice spokesman said nothing about Obama actually helping us get DOMA repealed), but the Obama administration's own word will now be used against us, and against him, if he ever deigns to actually fulfill even one promise to our community. "
- http://www.americablog.com/2009/06/obama-doj-lies-to-politico-in-defending.html
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Yes.
He handed the religious whackos all the ammo they could ever want. Right from the Focus on the Family and American Family playbook.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Oh, puh-leeeze! That could never happen!
How could Pres. Obama's own words ever be used to undermine GLBT civil rights?

Oh... wait... :yoiks:





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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-14-09 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Snort! Oh yeah.
Who could forget.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
27. They did establish on Thurs. that separate is never equal.
"Because all 50 States recognize heterosexual marriage, it was reasonable and rational for Congress to maintain its longstanding policy of fostering this traditional and universally-recognized form of marriage. At the same time, because Congress recognized both the freedom of States to expand the traditional definition, and the freedom of other States to decline to recognize this newer form of marriage, a policy of neutrality dictated that Congress not extend federal benefits to new forms of marriage recognized by some States. Given the strength of competing convictions on this still-evolving issue, Congress could reasonably decide that federal benefits funded by taxpayers throughout the nation should not be used to foster a form of marriage that only some States recognize, and that other States do not.

<snip>

Congress expressly relied on these interests in enacting DOMA: Government currently provides an array of material and other benefits to married couples in an effort to promote, protect, and prefer the institution of marriage. . . . If were to permit homosexuals to marry, these marital benefits would, absent some legislative response, presumably have to be made available to homosexual couples and surviving spouses of homosexual marriages on the same terms as they are now available to opposite-sex married couples and spouses. To deny federal recognition to same-sex marriages will thus preserve scarce government resources, surely a legitimate government purpose."
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
28. It's all part of Obama's Master Plan
The fact that the brief is so astoundingly offensive just speaks to the brilliance of his Plan. Even if this sets the course of equality back decades it's still part of the Master Plan. Sometimes we have to go backwards to move forward, you know. So stop whining like a baby and just rest assured he has your best interests at heart, regardless of what it looks like.
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WillParkinson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Pawn to Queen?
I mean, it seems that's how they see us. Or is Queen to Pawn? Either works.
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. No Queens allowed on this chessboard
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MNBrewer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-13-09 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. They've been replaced by Bishops.
Not of the Gene Robinson variety, either.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-14-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Kings take Bishops.



(bottom pics) Androgyny Kings, from Minneapolis, MN, performing at the Showcase night of IDKEX
in Columbus, OH
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