Fighting Homophobia is a Religious Issue

Homophobia in the U.S. is a religious fight. We couch it in many terms: political (legal rights, anti-discrimination), civil and moral (hate laws, protesting beatings and police brutality), and social (gay pride parades, GLBT organizations and advocacy groups, medical research and support) to name a few.

Yet the religious component is seldom expressed. As a gay man raised in a conservative Christian family in Texas, and having traveled across the country for the past 20 years meeting many gay and lesbian Americans, I am confident in assuming that the vast majority give little to no credence to religion. Even among those who do practice a faith or some type of spirituality, including Christianity, there are very few who give any credence to the idea of literally interpreting biblical passages.

This lack of interest or even respect for religion does not come from a want for exposure. Most American women and men who are gay were raised in a Christian home. That means they were stigmatized socially for years to varying degrees no matter what mitigating factors were involved or how strong their personal resolve was. For those individuals who extracted themselves from the self-hate doctrine preached in fundamentalist theology, no one can cast aspersions at them for wanting to stay as far away from religion as possible. The daily suffering compounded by the hypocrisy of the so-called spiritual leaders around you is enough to drive anyone insane.

Today, we live in another age. Today, young Americans, even those in fundamentalist families, can find a computer in a library and seek information about young gay people like them. They can find public services that are supportive and private. There are not enough of these services, but they are out there.

Young people today are no longer completely trapped in their parent's bubble. Don't think that I am trying to overstate the situation. There is much that needs to be done to fight homophobia and protect GLBT citizens everywhere. My suggestion is that the balance of power in the American demographic has changed.

It's time that GLBT supporters take the offense. But, some impediments stand in the way. The first, and most obvious, is the gulf that lies between religion in the U.S. and GLBT advocates. Having just described the reason this gulf exists, it is much easier to understand that the most pressing issue to address is homophobia. After all, what prevents those who oppose gay marriage from changing their mind? Others have. Yet, the remaining opponents are staunch. Or, what causes some politicians to oppose hate crimes legislation? They say it creates a special class and the law already exists - is that correct? If not, then what's the problem?

I suggest to you that in each case, the root issue is homophobia. A fear of homosexuals can take many forms and have many causes. For some, they may themselves have homosexual encounters and this is how they act out publicy to 'justify' and mask their secret indiscretions. For others, a malicious bias is easily learned from role models, just as racial hatred is. Still others maintain dillusions of demons and brimstone from selected biblical passages, conjured by fire-breathing preachers eager to poison your children.

If homophobia is the greater issue to address and it's root is religious here in the U.S., then how do we take the offense in our new age? First, we must acknowledge that there are a number of people who DO in fact fall into this sparsely populated gulf. There are liberal Christian churches, some of which have fantastic people associated with them. They operate on a wing and a prayer, because they are the black sheep of the Christian community and totally ignored by the GLBT community. Yet, these good people are the best resource and can become some of the best ambassadors for the GLBT positions.

Already, there has been forward momentum from the left wing of the Christian conservatives. Jim Wallis, considered a liberal among his peers though still a very cautious moderate, has come to the forefront nationally. Also, Sharon Watkins of the Disciples of Christ, among others, have taken more prominent leadership positions. But, none of these are GLBT advocates.

What happens when an educated, comfortable GLBT advocate with religious credentials takes on the right wing fundamentalists head-on? It has not happened much before because the roles were reversed. When playing defense, advocates had to accept being painted as a 'sinner.'

Even one of my favorite commentators, Dan Savage, is getting better at the offense role. Rather than playing the victim, simply quote another scripture and make the opposition defend their own contradiction. Do you know how simple this is to do for someone who knows scripture? Dan, who obiously does NOT know scripture, couldn't even get the New Testament Book right (lol). But had this been a typical nauseating head-to-head "CNN Style" battle of the opposites and the commentator had thrown out a scripture like this, the other side would have shrunk. Moreover, if we had someone doing it regularly, temperatures would really start to boil!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/vp/35572508#35572508

The fire is likely to get much more hot before the stew is done, but we are on the road to a new social order and it will be one in which we are ALL welcome.

To combat homophobia at its heart, we must fight at the heart of the beast just as Dr. Martin Luther King did. We must seek out our best ambassadors, many of whom reside in a place we often want to ignore and enjoy a topic we find distasteful, and ask them to rise to the occasion. Then, we must give them our full support and march together.

Peace

separated for this exact reason-indifference toward others. All this hate is blinding these people to reason.

is to say to them, "why do you hate Jesus? Why do you refuse His message and teachings? Did He not say "this you do the least of these, you do unto Me?" Didn't he also preach very clearly against divorce, but you have not one word to say about that, do you? You cannot refuse the words of Christ, and say you are a Christian. So don't even try to say you are a Christian, because you plainly hate what Jesus taught and have no intention whatsoever to obey His teachings."

Always ask, Why do they hate Jesus?". and put it on you counter demonstration signs- it will throw them off their tracks quickly.

you can't win, using religion. It's a waste of time. By its very nature, religion is irrational, so an irrational fear of us alien monster gays is not something we can overcome with guilt, logic, or any other form of social meme and manipulation.

In fact, by saying religion has NOTHING to do with property rights, we make them fight on OUR turf. I'm not denying that religion is the cause of much of the evil done towards us, just saying we are better off getting them to fight in our arena than the other way around.

It always was, and always will be. If we remove religion, we just remove the justification for the bigotry. Which, BTW, I'm totally fine with, and would LOVE to see happen. But it won't solve all our problems: they'll just find a new reason to hate us.

I think that we should be careful how one express such an opinion. I’m not here to preach, nor am I here to argue the valid points raised in the OP, nor the ones that I disagree with.

To say that “Religion Is Just An Excuse For Bigotry. It always was, and always will be.” is in and of itself a bigoted statement.
Furthermore to say “If we remove religion, we just remove the justification for the bigotry.” seems to me to be a more extreme form of bigotry.

I am left to ask “What religions would we remove?” All of them? Or just ones that you personally feel we should remove?
Bigotry is a two way street. Just because you are part of a group that is subject to bigotry, does not mean you are exempt from being one. I am however not denying that there are bigots that use their religion to support their intolerance. Do I support that opinion? No I do not. It does not however support the statement that religion should be wiped out.

Personally I think that it should be looked at from the simple point of view where there should be a strong line between the separation of Church and State. Look at is this way. I am simply pro-life from the aspect of my religion. However I do not feel that my religion should spill over into the affairs of the State and make it illegal. I want the state to respect my religion; however the state SHOULD expect the same respect from my church. That is where there are problems when the two start spilling over into each other.

Don’t think for one second that I feel that religion is perfect. It has a long and horrible history of being twisted and manipulated for evil.

But back to your first statement that religion is just an excuse for bigotry. If that were the case, I would not be allowed in my church.

How about we start with the ones that try to enforce their notions of morality on everyone else?

I freely admit my religious bigotry. I am completely and totally intolerant toward organized religion of all sorts. I find religion to be, at best, a crutch for intellectually weak and lazy individuals who are unable to face the concept of their own mortality, and, at worst, a justification for every bit of evil that can possibly be committed by one person against another. The minute I learn that someone is religious, I immediately lose a great deal of respect for them, and consider everything they say from that point on as intellectually suspect.

And yet, I haven't donated a penny to have religious people's rights removed. I haven't called my congressman, or written letters to the editor, or pressured a school board. Know why? Because I am a better person than those who claim to be religious. I believe in the concept of equality, and I don't need a childish fairy tale of an invisible sky king to know the difference between right and wrong.

I am not in the least impressed by your attempt to equate my justifiable hatred of religion and religious people with the ignorance and stupidity that religious morons have foisted on society since time immemorial. You may take your pious lecture and shove it straight up your sacred ass. I couldn't care less that you've apparently found a whole group of people willing to indulge both your sin of homosexuality and their own believe in the Easter Bunny with better PR.

Until religious people stop persecuting me and mine, they will be the enemy, and anyone who tries to give aid and comfort to them is also the enemy.

Keep your voodoo to yourself.

And it's not only those people of faith who are in favor of theocracy who are a threat. By showing up at mass or other religious services on Sunday millions of "good" people validate the evil that they claim to reject. By putting money in the collection plate they give financial support to an institution which stands for things that these good people claim to find unacceptable. The idea that because one considers oneself a good and accepting person any criticism of one's religion should be off the table is crap. To me it is the height of hypocrisy to claim to believe in something while supporting an institution which expressly rejects and condemns that belief. Until they start voting with their feet and their hearts and join or start churches that don't believe in "persecuting me and mine, they will be the enemy, and anyone who tries to give aid and comfort to them is also the enemy."

As I stated in my last post, I do not deny the twisting of religion that has occurred in the past, nor do I deny that it is happening today. However to so blatantly lump all people of religion into one simple group to make them a focus of your hate I think is counter productive.

Perhaps we could start with wiping out my church and its entire people? How would you suggest that one would accomplish this goal? I can guarantee that the majority of members will stand by their convictions of morality and faith. If you could would go back in time and wipe out all of the members of my church, would you? I will not deny that my church has preached its morality to this nation. In some cases we were very successful in helping change laws and most importantly minds. It is my church’s morality and ideals that encouraged me to join. I can however state that my church does not persecute you or yours and therefore according to your own words not your enemy. However since we are an organized religion, we are evil in your mind…

Personally I believe that we need to work together, everyone regardless of color, sex, age, religion or political perspective. We need to work together absent of bigotry towards one another. Only then can we continue to progress as a society, a nation and a world.

You are honest, and don’t pull punches and I respect that. You are not here to tip toe around the tulips, and have no fear of expressing your opinion. If everyone acted that way, I’m sure that all groups could come to an understanding of each other. However, you and I differ on how we can come to a tolerance of each other. I feel it can be attained through honest and open discussion, but in order to do that, we must look at the world not through the eyes of a bigot, but as an accepting individual.

You have your assumptions of me, and have made your hate towards me clear. I know how you feel, and I think it best that we just agree to disagree.

I don't agree to that.

I don't hate you, personally; I don't even know you. What I hate is when people like you try to pretend that religious views are in any way equal to GLBT rights.

There are not two sides to this issue. There is ONE right side: the non-bigoted side. You may believe that your childish "faith" in a fictional being is completely benign, but by calling yourself a christian, by promoting that ludicrous belief system, you provide moral backing for the likes of Fred Phelps, who you would no doubt say is not a "real" christian. Fred Phelps is just as much of a christian as you, and he is speaking for you, whether you want to believe it or not.

It absolutely infuriates me when religion is given any weight in the governance of this or any society, and in the United States, it is given a great deal of weight. The only reason that the government is capable of denying me my rights is because of you and people like you, who would rather selfishly cling to this imaginary comfort food than grow up and face the fact that this is all there is to life. Not only are you supplying the christian hate groups with the stolen moral authority to spread their bile across the country, but more importantly, you are enabling the "quiet" christians, the ones who don't proselytize, and for whom religion defines a very narrow portion of their identity, to walk into voting booths and have a reason to vote their bigotry. Most of these hypocrites have no idea what they are supposed to believe as christians, but because of the support of people like you, the dominant message of christianity - fear and distrust anyone not like you - caries the weight to make them feel morally justified when denying other human beings their rights.

When we get equality in this country, it will not be due to any efforts by any religious people. It will be in SPITE of you and religious people like you. In a perfect world, people who believe in fairy tales would not even be given a seat at the table, let alone be able to set policy. It is a mark of how very immature we are as a society that organized religion is tolerated in supposedly mature adults, who are free to oppress their fellow human beings in the name of some pretend god.

You paint my uneducated because of my faith. You contradict yourself when you say that you don’t hate me because you don’t even know me, yet you wholeheartedly state that you are bigoted of me because of my views. You imply that I am less of a human being because of my faith. Sounds like hate to me. You stated that I don’t even deserve a seat at the table, implying that I am somehow less of a human than that of you. Again, sounds like hate to me. Your prejudice towards me is quite apparent.

You should not deny that you do hate me as it makes for giant inconsistencies in your point. Your ignorance and intolerance towards me is in no way different than that of those who would see sooner see me dead than living as a free man of color in their society. In their eyes I am not fit to sit at their table as well. In their eyes I am ignorant as well. In their eyes I am not worth talking to as well.

You paint such a horrible picture of me yet you do not know me, nor do you know anything about me or my views. Your level of hate is quite apparent, as you will not even consider having a cordial conversation with someone of an opposing view. I was fully willing to admit that organized religion has many problems. How I wish and support those who would see religion progress into the modern era. However it is you and those like you who would just as soon see me and those like me segregated as lesser people who must be wiped from existence. Even having the conversation is out of the picture. I am willing to see progress. I am willing to work towards progress. Yet it is you, and those like you on the other side of the table (fundies) that are stalling any possible progress.

Since you can so nonchalantly equate me to the Phelps’ and state that he speaks for me, I am left to say that you are quite ignorant of my views, my intent and my heart. Furthermore since you are so unwilling to have an open hearted conversation about my views, I will not continue it any further.

Consider yourself the “winner”. I will walk away.

I don’t agree that “the religious component is seldom expressed”. I don’t see “the gulf that lies between the religious in the U.S. and GLBT advocates.” I know that nearly every national LGBT organization has religious outreach programs. The NGLTF runs the Institute for Welcoming Resources, the National Religious Leadership Roundtable, among others. The HRC has its own Religion and Faith Program and its own Religion Council. Then there are the many organizations that meet religious bigotry (yes, that’s what it is) on the ground face to face. The first that jumps to mind is Soulforce. Anyone who has thought for half a second about this issue, knows about Soulforce and the incredible work they do.

The fact that the author only mentions Dan Savage, a notoriously secular and profane writer, is a bullhorn of his own lack of awareness or perhaps disingenuous selectivity.

In fact, this author’s ONLY statement I agree with is that “homophobia in the U.S. is a religious fight.” And just as our religious opponents social views are poorly informed and myopic at best, so too are their own religious views. Half the challenge of dealing with these people is not simply addressing religious issues but speaking to their own internicine (New Word: characteristic of the doctrinal bickering at the Council of Nicea, see also “hairsplitting”) biblical interpretations. Southern Baptists in Dimebox, TX think the SBs in Bacon, TX are all heretics anyways.

Just as most Americans understand Fred Phelps and his extremist cult to be crazy bigots, we only need to get more people to address religious bigotry as bigotry. There are PLENTY of religious LGBT people of every faith. When the bigots in the pews finally quiet down, you’ll hear our own religious witnesses.

You expressed it perfectly. :thumbsup:

You have failed spectacularly at doing so for generations. You always let the bigots have the microphones. You "real" christians wail and moan about how your message is being co-opted by small fringe groups, who aren't "real" christians like you you. Yet given the state of affairs in this country, it seems more than logical to conclude that you so-called "real" christians are the fringe groups, and Fred Phelps and his like-minded ilk are the TRUE face of christianity. Were that not the case, I would have all the rights that straight people do in this country.

While we wait for the "bigots in the pews" to "finally quiet down", perhaps you could explain to me exactly what Soulforce is. Despite your claims to the contrary, I have spent far more than half a second thinking about religion, bigotry, and equality, and I have never heard of them. Apparently, their message is not nearly as effective or wide-spread as you seem to believe. Perhaps they too are waiting for the bigots in the pews to quiet down before speaking out in favor of the sinful gays.

For all his secular profanity, Dan Savage has done more single-handedly to advance gay equality than all the religious organizations on Earth put together. When you people get those "unreal" christians under control and away from the microphones, maybe people will start to take you seriously.

Who claimed I was a “real Christian”?:rofl:

My intension was to refute the OP’s claim that in our fight with religious opponents “the religious component is seldom expressed”. Unfortunately, among the gay men I party with, I'm usually the only Atheist in the room. You should reread my post.

I'd love to chat, but I have to leave to have my picture taken in front of an freethinker's "Godless" billboard.

"Notoriously" secular and profane? So being unapologetically secular is a cause for notoriety? Only in a world in which you assume that in order to be a fully realized human being you must have faith in an imaginary friend of some sort.


Half the challenge of dealing with these people is not simply addressing religious issues but speaking to their own internicine (New Word: characteristic of the doctrinal bickering at the Council of Nicea, see also “hairsplitting”) biblical interpretations. Southern Baptists in Dimebox, TX think the SBs in Bacon, TX are all heretics anyways.


So to pare it down to the basics, your interpretation of the Bible is right and theirs is (are) wrong and you and Soul Force have a duty to address their error. Good luck with that. Jesus had barely had a chance to check into Heaven and grab a shower and a change of clothes before you guys were arguing about what it means to be a Christian and how your God wants you to live your life. And ours. After 2,000 years of incessant bickering and bloodletting you are still no closer to agreeing than you ever were. And how do you know you’re right anyway? For every scrap of scripture you can quote in support of your position it seems like your opposition can come up with one that qualifies or contradicts it.


Just as most Americans understand Fred Phelps and his extremist cult to be crazy bigots, we only need to get more people to address religious bigotry as bigotry. There are PLENTY of religious LGBT people of every faith. When the bigots in the pews finally quiet down, you’ll hear our own religious witnesses.


If I understand you here you are saying that it’s people that are the problem rather than religion. Okay, but isn’t that the religious version of the NRA folks saying that guns don’t kill people, people kill people? You say that we that we need to get more people to address religious bigotry as bigotry. Fair enough in that it acknowledges that religion can be used cynically as a justification for bigotry by people who would probably be bigoted no matter what the Bible said. But again, it seems to downplay the impact of the millions of good people who sincerely believe. And it also glosses over religion’s role as a catalyst, a motivator and a call to action in addition to simply being a justification.

But I guess the problem will be solved when the bigots in the pews finally quiet down leaving the field to the good guys. Fine. Do you have some kind of time frame for this? And how are you certain that if we are moving in the right direction now we will continue to move in the right direction in the future? There have always been eddies and tides, but the basic fact is that religion has fanned the fires of prejudice and hatred since long before Christianity was even a gleam in the Sky Troll’s eye and I see no evidence that overall it’s going to change much. And Christianity itself, if you accept the exclusivist claims of its nominal founder and His exhortation to proselytize throughout the world, is by its very nature a force for authoritarianism, intolerance, divisiveness and conquest.

All in all not a promising situation as far as I’m concerned. I don’t think you can fault people for being just a little skeptical about Christianity’s potential for positive action here. But like Toasterlad, I’d settle for just being left alone. And if those Christian institutions which oppose us won’t back off voluntarily I think it’s incumbent upon our notoriously sort-of-secular state to step in and put them in their place.

But then they respond anyway.

The OP’s point is that LGBT advocates are NOT addressing religion in their political fights. I merely cited a number of LGBT groups, including Soulforce, which do. Its not about who’s interpretation is right, but refuting religious bigotry. But if you want to take the Xian’s bigot’s side, you go ahead.

I’m sure Dan Savage would love to be known as that notorious kinky sex advice columnist. So why the OP chose him as a source to use in refuting religious bigotry when anyone - even me - could cite so many others more qualified to refute religious issues is the mystery.

Hmmm... I assume no body reads these posts.