Think these lesbians will claim the "straight panic" defense?

I post this only because it is news -- one doesn't often hear about alleged straight bashings.

Sounds to me like this dude went a lot further than making mere "advances" (i.e., the slur, the spitting, the threat to f--- them all) -- and while I do not condone any sort of violence, I have even less sympathy for the kind of idiot stupid enough to hassle a bunch of lesbians in the Village:

Seven lesbians charged in straight man's stabbing

Seven lesbians from Newark, N.J., attacked and seriously injured a street vendor in New York's West Village early Friday after the man grew angry when his advances to one woman were not returned, the New York Daily News reported.

Police said the women whipped Wayne Buckle, 28, with belts; the subject of his attentions, Patreese Johnson, 19, then stabbed him repeatedly with a steak knife, the Daily News said.

<snip>

Later, at the police station house, where the seven suspects, ranging in age from 18 to 31, were charged with gang assault and criminal possession of a weapon, another woman told the Daily News that Buckle "called us and he said he was going to f--- us all."

Said another: "He spit on us and threw a cigarette. This is a hate crime."

<snip>

More:
http://www.planetout.com/news/article.html?2006/08/21/3

Gay bashing ok straight bashing, well we just can't have that.

argument fly.

It would have been the perfect "You go, girls!" moment.

been sufficient punishment.

If he's the kind of man I think he is, I doubt he would have even tried to press charges since that would embarrass him further.

he probably would have gone home and beat his wife or girlfriend, if he had one, just to prove he was a tough guy.

Unfortunately, I know plenty of women who like this kind of thug.

I played football, was in great shape (not quite as good now, but not to shabby), 6'2" 200lbs, brown and brown, not a bad looking guy . I have always had manners, and treated my dates with respect and common courtesy, I was never clingy or needy, but many times I was told you are to nice. The girls always went for the bad boys, even the guys who hit. I now have a successful business, and work as a professional firefighter. Most of The girls of old, that went for those assholes are living in trailers, they have more babies than brains, and dead beat x husbands. I don't wish ill on anyone, so don't get me wrong. I'm 36 happily married,to a wonderful woman, with my/our first newborn baby. Life is good. Except for the state of our country, and world events. I don't feel like I missed out on anything or anybody. Some women are truly a mystery.

Too bad (for me) you're married, I was all excited until I got to that part ... I love firemen. :D

I hear ya, though, I'll never understand what a lot of women (and men) consider attractive.

a different time,a different place, but I am with the love of my life, and very happy, thanks for the thought though.

:( That type is a pox on humanity.

and i don't mean the village.

more about this individual's background before I generate the appropriate amount of sympathy, if any at all.

If he spends his time bullying lesbians and gays, I say that's the risk you take....that you might be knifed or shot.

Don't want to get knifed or shot? Easy, don't fuck with gay people.

We don't know all of the details of this case.....the "victim" could be a real asshole.

He sounds like it.

He was hardly an innocent victim.

...but my natural Sympath-O-Meter is just not kicking in, either.

I tend to be more ready to side with the women on this one, although I do think they could have just kicked his ass as a collective and shamed him instead of the stabbing. If he was harrassing them, I see it as self defense.

But at the same time I have no sympathy for Mr. Buckle. Maybe he'll think twice before harassing lesbians again.

But what we will see is many straights beginning a campaign to get "special rights" in order to claim this as a "hate crime."

And that is exactly what I thought yesterday (my Monday) when I heard this on the radio on the way to work.

maybe that's brutal -- but when i think of all the bashings that the lgbtq community endures --

this is just what happens when folk get up on their damn feet.

MATTHEW SHEPHERD! (and other bashing victims)

I thought.....how does it feel to be outnumbered "Mister I'm gunna harass the lesbians?"

She was a 17 year old AG (butch kid) from Newark who was stabbed after telling a guy who was harrassing her on the street that she was a lesbian. If this girl is 19 and from Newark that would put her at right about Sakia Gunn's age. If I was her lawyer, the influence of that case would be clear in my mind.

makes it seem to me that he was the first to commit assault.

What happens to him next could arguably be self-defense.

That's my non-lawyer opinion.

I teach women's self-defense. Self-defense would be incapacitating him enough so that he was no longer a physical threat. It ceased to be self-defense, turning into a violent assault, after he was already beat down and they decided to keep going, eventually leading to his repeated stabbing.

These women are violent criminals themselves, not women who were simply protecting themselves.

the situation. Verbal threats were exchanged on both sides. They were spit at and had a cigarette thrown at them, so basically they should have walked away and called the cops. Unless he grabbed or hit one of them (which he didn't according to the article), they don't even have any good self-defense reason to hit him at all and definitely no reason to stab him.

While the guy is a definite asshole and should be charged for verbal harassment & spitting at them, there is no way, these women should get away with what they did. It's not even a gay rights issue, its an issue of one asshole coming up against a group of violent assholes (who then claimed 'hate crime').

A guy makes an advance at a girl, the girl rejects the advance, the guy gets agressive and starts making threats. Regardless of the sexual orientation of the girl, she is under attack and has every right to defend herself. She has the same time-honored, court blessed defense of, "He was threatening to rape me."

Yeah, the guy's a scumbag. Yeah, throwing a lit cigarette at someone is assault.

But they could have called the cops. Had him charged with assault. They could have called the city and had the guys food liscense pulled and put out of business.

But to put him in the hospital in critical condition? Not good IMHO.

this isn't some grand retribution of Matthew Sheppard, as others have suggested. Or OK, or even understandable. This deserves nothing less than condemnation.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

They snapped. The groups of young AGs and their femmes that hang out in the village are very obviously gay. I don't have much sympathy for the men who cruise the streets of NY following women and harrassing them. It's a fucking epidemic. Just last night, I was followed for blocks by a guy trying to talk to me. Saying "I'm not interested" does nothing. Saying, "I'm a lesbian" will likely leave you gay-bashed (think of young Sakia Gunn, stabbed to death in Newark because she told a guy who was coming on to her that she's a lesbian.)

Are the wrong? Yeah. But frankly, I'd have myself excused from the jury because I'd have a tough time being impartial on the case. I can't think of a harder life than being a teenage African American AG or femme.

Also, imagine if a group of straight white girls stabbed a man who was coming on to them. Where would the sympathies of the press would lie? I wonder.

I have experienced feelings that I think of as straight panic and I do think it exists. Of course, I can't get by with a straight bashing when I feel cornered and threatened by a guy who won't take my very real "no" as an answer. Of course, the gay panic defense gets loads of sympathy from people. And lastly, of course these lesbians will get no sympathy from the majority of people.

I, for one, can sympathize with them. I have often wondered why this doesn't happen more with lesbians who are being harrassed by straight guys who seem to think they can "straighten" her out. A woman should have a right to defend herself, but these women are going to be burned at the stake with society's current mentality, unfortunately. You know, I have wanted to say this for so long now. Also, I have wanted to ask the question: How the fuck can our society claim to be civilized when women are brutalized and then blamed for what happens to them so often still to this day? We live in a very uncivilized society, IM(notso)HO.

There, I said it. That's how I walk around feeling and what I spend countless hours thinking about. That feels so damn good to finally share. Thanks for listening.

I'm not sure I'd call it "straight panic," but just plain fear, and anger. In any case, it doesn't surprise me; any woman (lesbian or not) who says she's never wanted to pummel a harrasser into ground hamburger is either in denial, or lying.

I grant you, there is a "special" kind of anger lesbians have for straight men who want to "straighten" us out. No woman should be cornered, but I'm guessing it's more acceptable (or at least less un-acceptable) in the game between straight men and straight women. In the straight world, men are the predators, women the prey... That doesn't make it right, but I think it's more accepted that straight women are supposed to spend their lives fending off unwelcome advances.

Now, watch as dozens of straight DUers jump down my throat. Just remember, I didn't say it was right -- just part of the War Between (Straight) Men and Women.

But when a straight man won't take no for an answer from a lesbian, he's succeeded in negating our identity -- again, just like every other moron who told us we were just going through a "phase," or tells us we can't get married because our relationships aren't as real or valid as hetero couplings.

The rage I feel at being dismissed, reduced to such nothingness like that, has at times been indescribable.

Not that it's in my nature to be violent -- despite my contrary verbal nature, I'm gentler than a lamb in real life, and will do almost anything to defuse a bad situation and avoid (physical) confrontation altogether.

But there were two times in my life the rational Sapph checked out, and the beast took over...

Both incidents were remarkably similar, and both occurred in early adulthood -- let me just tell you about the more memorable one:

When I was 18, I was walking with my then-gf down a city street at night, when she lagged behind for a moment to look at something in a shop window. I turned to see where she'd disappeared to, and to my horror, saw that out of nowhere there had appeared two real, live, big, scary Hell's Angels, one on either side of her, chatting her up. I was momentarily frozen to the spot as I tried to size up the situation, quickly deciding that it was all OK, as long as they didn't touch her...

Of course, that's when one of them touched her. All he did was put an arm around her shoulders, but that was enough. All rationale went south, and adrenalin took over; I went at him in a dead run, both arms stretched straight out in front of me, and -- hissing, "You GET your fuckin' hands OFF her!" -- smashed my open palms directly into his chest, pushing him back a good four or five feet and almost knocking him down.

I was sure he and his buddy would kill me right then and there, but I guess the move was so unexpected -- imagine this short little dyke lunging, full-bore, at this big, hairy biker number right out of Central Casting -- he just blinked, collected himself, raised his hands in defense and said, almost softly, "Oh...! I get it! Dykes! OK... OK..." And the two dudes just turned around and walked away. (Talk about an anticlimax... Thank goodness!)

Of course, only after they were gone did my knees buckle. I felt like I was going to throw up.

I can't even begin to describe the rage inside me when I ran at the guy. No, he didn't know we were lesbians, or lovers, when he came on to my gf -- but that didn't matter right at that moment. He ended up getting the brunt of all my pent-up anger at all the men who did know I was gay and tried to corner me, or come on to whoever I was with (and there was already a fair number of times that had happened to me, even by the age of 18).

So, Jamastiene, I'm still waiting for your big bombshell. ;) Seriously, I can't imagine any woman who doesn't understand. I had major revenge fantasies about a guy who tried to rape me when I was just a teenager -- until I realized the revenge fantasies were coming out of me blaming myself for the attack. Which is what women are conditioned to do: blame ourselves for the actions of subhumans who view us as nothing more than sperm receptacles. (How does that exchange go between Celie and Shug in "The Color Purple"? Something like: "He just gets on top of me and does his business." "You make it sound like he's going to the bathroom on you!" "Well, that's what it feels like.")

One thing that helped me, immeasurably, put the whole thing into perspective -- and channel my anger where it belongs -- was BAMM (now called Impact Bay Area). No doubt you've heard of the women's self-defense classes where you just get to whale, full force, on a guy in a padded suit -- that's what this is. Learning some great moves to defend myself was certainly valuable on its own -- but 90% of what I got out of it was the ultimate feeling of (hold on to your gag reflexes, boys and girls, I'm about to use a hackneyed feminist cliche!) empowerment. Having to confront my most basic fears and tap into my own well of self-protection, five hours a day, five Sundays in a row, was emotionally devastating (and was much more so for the shockingly high number of students who had survived childhood sexual abuse, and/or been raped, some repeatedly) -- and was the best catharsis on earth.

I've never had to use any techniques I learned (knock wood), but, more than ten years later, I know that if I were accosted now, I could deal with it. More importantly, I know I could deal with it emotionally.

and a great inspiration to me. I had seen many of the negative replies about the women attacking the man, granted they stabbed him, which may have been more than they needed in that case. I was beginning to feel that I was the only one who had felt that fear before. So many people deny those feelings. Those intense feelings are very real when a man just won't quit when you let them know you are a lesbian. I agree that many straight women just take it when men won't quit with them. Many of them do not even know what rape really is. No means no. It's that simple. Even some straight men get that. :shrug:

Maybe it is not the bombshell I thought it was if more people feel the way I do.

I wish there was a BAMM chapter near here. In North Carolina, especially in the small town where I live, there are few resources for women who need that kind of therapy. I do see it as therapy too. It looks a positive way to deal with all the angst and helps women feel empowered. What else is therapy but finding a positive outlet to learn to cope?

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. It is so nice not to feel so alone. :hug:

I'm glad it helped. :)

As for BAMM, it's a good excuse for a vacation to California -- or New York, or even Australia (I'm pretty sure they have a chapter Down Under). Having tried a lot of different routes to self-peace, I can affirm that BAMM has been the best therapy for dealing with the anger and (nearly) eliminating the feelings of powerlessness.

Matter of fact, I hear BAMM is hiring... I'm considering looking into the certification process (200 hours' training!) to become an instructor. I have to think about it a bit more, 'though; I can't imagine anything more rewarding than to help other women achieve what I've gained -- but I need to make sure I don't drain my own emotional reserves in the process.

...who have to put up with straight men without the ability to keep it zipped up and their mouth shut!

One limited to words and a spit.

At least he didn't try to beat anyone to death (or what might be considered worse than death) -- and some gay men have been.

Because of the women, his sentence may be reduced too. He will be seen as the victim now.

I want to hear more stories about LBGT folk beating the shit out of these assholes. Seriously. After years of torture, these guys have it coming. Maybe if they learn we can't be fucked with, they will start treating us with more respect.

...but you know it's not the right way.

Self-defense, A-OK. Overkill, not OK.

I was writing from a position of frustration and anger, so I can't imagine what these women (or any other women, for that matter) go through in our culture. While I accept they may have overstepped the line, I understand why they did what they did. I just hope the court shows half as much sympathy.

I don't think they're going to get any sympathy, though. In fact, the way this is turning out worries me... I'll post some updated stuff here in a moment.

Ultimately, that it happened at all doesn't surprise me. Something like this was bound to happen sooner or later.

I don't like the way this is being covered in the MSM. There's not a ton of news about it yet (wait 'til the trial starts), but just check out what crap Buckle has already fed the pseudo-newspaper, NY Daily News:

Stab victim says attack gang 'hated men'

An oxygen tube pumping air into his lungs, the 28-year-old man allegedly beaten and stabbed in the West Village by a gang of petite lesbians described the attack yesterday from his hospital bed.

"They hated men," Wayne Buckle said from the intensive care unit of Saint Vincent's Hospital Manhattan. "I think it would have been any man and not just me."

<snip>

"It was a hate crime against a straight man by a ton of lesbians," he said. "This is what the world is coming to."

<snip>

His eyes swollen, Buckle was hooked up to a respirator yesterday. He denied that he had provoked the attack and insisted he was not homophobic.

"All I said was, 'Excuse me, how are you doing?' like a gentleman," he said. "I thought it was the natural thing to do."

More:
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/445121p-374817c.html

("I think it would have been any man and not just me." Right. Not "any man" would curse, spit on, and throw a cigarette at a woman who rejected his unwelcome advances.)

Incidentally, dig how the piece calls Buckle "an independent filmmaker." Other sources (I can find links, if anyone needs them) call him a "DVD bootlegger."

In any case, of course we can see right through Buckle's bullshit. What bothers me is the likelihood that this story is going to provide ammo for the Radical Right. It wouldn't surprise me if they recruited this creep as their poster child for more anti-gay crap. ("PROOF that lesbians are violent and dangerous!! What is this world coming to?!")

Here's the second thing that's bothering me (it's a press release, so I'm quoting it in full):

Support Newark lesbians who are victims of a hate crime

by: Steven Goldstein, Garden State Equality chair
Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 18:11:34 PM EDT

Garden State Equality stands in solidarity with seven Newark lesbians who were attacked last weekend in a hate crime -- shockingly, authorities have charged them, but not their attacker, with a crime

Contact Steven Goldstein, chair of Garden State Equality, cell (917) 449-8918

Tuesday, August 22, 2006 -- Garden State Equality today expresses its strongest support for seven women, residents of Newark and members of the state's LGBTI community, arrested in New York City last weekend after a homophobic thug attacked them in a hate crime. Last Friday night, the man tried to pick up one of the women in the West Village in New York City. When she rejected his advances, he spit on her, attacked all the women with anti-lesbian epithets and then vowed to "f---" them all. The incident was reported this past weekend in the New York City press.

Astonishingly, the New York Police Department did not arrest the homophobic attacker, but instead arrested the woman victim and her six friends. Her friends came to her defense and allegedly stabbed the thug when he would not stop his monstrous tirade -- a tirade that could have led to his murdering the women within moments.

"Has society not learned anything from the senseless murders of Sakia Gunn and Shani Baraka?" said Steven Goldstein, chair of Garden State Equality. "How dare the police treat this vile, homophobic attacker as the victim rather than the perpetrator. What were these women supposed to do, wait to see if the attacker would make good on his promise to cause them all bodily harm? We call on authorities in New York to drop their charges against the women immediately, and to charge the man with a hate crime and seek the fullest penalties against him as allowed by law."

"Garden State Equality will provide whatever advocacy support it can to Newark's LGBTI community," Goldstein said. "Organizations such as the Newark Pride Alliance, the African-American Office of Gay Concerns and the Liberation in Truth Unity Fellowship Church have played a leading role in fighting against social injustice and hate crimes like this, and we at Garden State Equality stand with them proudly.

"A hate crime against any of us is a hate crime against us all."

Link:
http://www.bluejersey.net/userDiary.do;jsessionid=5D39FE4F80A8FD3F2F033F79F253BBFD?personId=552

Uh, I am not "astonished" that the women, and not Buckle, were arrested. Yes, he should be up on some charge, but how can anyone believe the women didn't warrant arrest?

What is GSE thinking? I can understand perfectly why these women went postal, but GSE is actually condoning their actions, and absolving them of any responsibility.

I'm afraid I must agree with the New York Blade:

Without knowing the specific events that transpired before the attack, we cannot state whether they were in physical danger. We can relate to their frustration at being harassed. And yes, Buckle should be held responsible for his tirade.

It is an outrageous proposition to state that Buckle’s yelling at the women could have lead to his murdering them, and therefore the seven lesbians were justified in beating and stabbing him.

More:
http://www.newyorkblade.com/2006/8-28/viewpoint/editorials/edit.cfm

And then, there are the "conflicting accounts" reports -- which make me think that this could have blown up into a full-scale Stonewall Riot:

In comments to the press while in St. Vincent’s, Buckle alleged that he made a friendly overture to Johnson as the group passed him, but was ignored by her. Another woman, whom he described as Johnson’s girlfriend and “fat,” began harassing him, he said, and soon surrounded him. At that point, according to Buckle, one of the women spit on him and he spit back, after which the attack began. Newspaper reports have alternately said the women beat him with belts or with their fists. The New York Times reported that others, both men and women, joined in the attack on Buckle. When he began bleeding from his stab wound, the seven women allegedly ran away.

Buckle has described the incident as a “hate attack against a straight man” by women who “hated men,” according to the New York Daily News.

The Daily News, however, reported that one of the women, while being led out of the 6th Precinct headquarters in the West Village, alleged that it was Buckle who spit first, threw a cigarette at the women, and yelled homophobic slurs. The woman said the incident had been an anti-lesbian “hate crime.” The News reported that several witnesses confirmed that it was Buckle who spit at the women first.

An employee of a nearby news stand called police, but the man was not available this week. Another employee of the news stand noted that the IFC has two security cameras outside that likely captured the incident.

More:
http://www.gaycitynews.com/gcn_534/conflictingaccounts.html

It's going to be quite interesting if the security cameras did catch it.

I agree with you. Violence shouldn't be condoned either way. The women are responsible for their actions legally. And if they're account of what happened is also true, then the guy also should take responsiblity for his actions as well and it should included in the review of their case. In my state, threating to f*** someone is considered a violent threat whether you actually follow through with it or not. And spitting is also considered an aggressive act and physical provocation that is against the law - no differently here then actually hitting someone with your hand, etc. So they could probablly also argue their actions were in self-defense and reaction to his. How much of their actions will be consided as such will be up to the jury to decide.

But I have to tell you reading this in all honesty, it brought back memories and anger of being verbally and physically accosted by men and teenage boys when I was alone because they thought it was acceptable. And memories of coming and going into different lesbian dance clubs and having a group of straight guys harassing us outside the main doors. Sometimes the managment called the police and sometimes they didn't. I hated it. Just because we're lesbians doesn't give them the right to treat us that way. I've never hit anyone, but I wanted to go up to the cowards and kick them between their legs. Not legal and not the best way to handle things and I never acted on my thoughts, but after awhile you get tired of it.

The article also made me think of the so many gay men who've been singled out by groups of straight men/boys and beaten...some killed. And too often in their defense, the men said it was because the victim had made some pass at them earlier on. That doesn't give them the right to do that even assuming it's true. And every time I hear this arguement in cases like this, my first thought is - how would they feel if I physically assaulted every male that ever made a pass at me, let alone grabbed me or threatned to?

if that was a group of straight women being verbally assaulted like that.

Especially if they were white and blonde.