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Is The Proposed ‘Limit On Marriage’ Initiative Too Late?

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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 10:37 PM
Original message
Is The Proposed ‘Limit On Marriage’ Initiative Too Late?
OK...this article is written in 'high legalese' but in a nutshell it basically states that because the recent CA Supreme Court ruling established that gays and lesbians have a fundamental right to marry any attempt to change this is actually a 'revision' to the state Constitution, not simply an 'amendment'. Revisions are only possible through a state constitutional convention or through the state legislature and then subject to voter approval.

The proposed initiative appears to now attempt to revise the California Constitution to remove the fundamental right to marry and equal protection that gays and lesbians are now afforded under the California Constitution.With that in mind, the Secretary of State must be aware of the following case:
Rippon v. Bowen (2008) 160 Cal.App.4th 1308, 1313:
Article XVIII of the California Constitution allows for amendment of the Constitution by the Legislature, or initiative and revision of the Constitution by the Legislature, or a constitutional convention. There is no other method for revising or amending the Constitution. (Livermore v. Waite (1894) 102 Cal. 113, 117, 36 P. 424 (Livermore).)
“ ‘Amendment’ implies such an addition or change within the lines of the original instrument as will effect an improvement, or better carry out the purpose for which it was framed.” (Livermore, supra, 102 Cal. at pp. 118-119, 36 P. 424.) The “revision/amendment analysis has a dual aspect, requiring us to examine both the quantitative and qualitative effects of the measure on our constitutional scheme. Substantial changes in either respect could amount to a revision.” (Raven v. Deukmejian (1990) 52 Cal.3d 336, 350, 276 Cal.Rptr. 326, 801 P.2d 1077 (Raven).) “n enactment which is so extensive in its provisions as to change directly the ‘substantial entirety’ of the Constitution by the deletion or alteration of numerous existing provisions may well constitute a revision thereof. However, even a relatively simple enactment may accomplish such far reaching changes in the nature of our basic governmental plan as to amount to a revision also.” (Amador Valley Joint Union High Sch. Dist. v. State Bd. of Equalization (1978) 22 Cal.3d 208, 223, 149 Cal.Rptr. 239, 583 P.2d 1281 (Amador).)


The rest isn't that long and it really is worth it to read the entire article if you can wade through the jargon. :)

Read the rest of the article here
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. This amends the state constitution, and will trump the Supreme Court ruling
A state Supreme Court may only apply and, when necessary, interpret and clarify the state Constitution. If the state constitution states that marriage shall be recognized only insofar as it involves one man and one woman, there is nothing that the state Court can say or do otherwise.

So yes, if this ballot measure is passed and the California constitution is amendended, the state Court will be forced to uphold it. Only the United States Supreme Court would have the power to override it, and only through the application and interpretation of the United States Constitution.
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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-27-08 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Read the article
The CA SC ruled that marriage is an equal right.

This initiative attempts to limit that right.

The author shows that goes beyond an amendment (as defined by the law and court cases) and is in fact a 'revision' to the basic constitution itself.

That can only be done by the Legislature -or- by Constitutional Convention. Not by direct ballot initiative.

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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
3. Morning kick
:kick:
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
4. I hope you're right, LeftCoast.
A few months ago, my nextdoor neighbor walked into my garage and asked my 76 yr old dad to sign his petition. When my dad declined, said neighbor walked away saying "That's what's wrong with this country." I'd hate to get my third strike on an asshole like that.
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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I'm no lawyer, but this guy seems to be making a sound legal argument
I've forwarded the article to several lawyers highly active in this fight to see what they think.

If they get back to me or I hear more info, I'll let everyone here know.
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I'm certainly no lawyer either, but I do agree with you.
And I'm very curious about what those lawyers would think. It would be interesting to forward this to the Lambda Legal Defense Fund as well.
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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Hey! Did you see the Field Poll today, showing the amendment losing?!
Good news on two fronts about this issue! :)
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. That is excellent news!
I don't live in California, but ever since the ruling...and the tiresome knowledge that the bigots would try to get a amendment on the ballot...I've thought that an amendment would fail. California isn't Idaho or Missouri or some other Red state. I just don't think it will pass. Plus, your governor came out against any amendment. I think that's a very good sign.

Are you and your partner planning to tie the knot? :-)
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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yep! We're working out the details right now.
We've already received invites to other weddings as well. We might (I stress *might*) be open to challenging DOMA as well since I feel we have a good case. DOMA costs me thousands of dollars per year because the Fed taxes the health insurance benefits my company gives to my partner. Obviously, this is a bit early in the game to think about all that though...

:hi:
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I know it's early.
But this is precisely why DOMA should be overturned. From what you've said about your situation, DOMA is a real burden to you and your partner. These are exactly the kind of hardships that a discriminatory policy such as DOMA create. And why it should be overturned.

It sounds, to at least me, that you could have a good case for a lawsuit. But as you've said, it might be too early to think about that right now.

:hi:
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FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
11. A similar case is now in the court system in Oregon...
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2004430946_gaymarriage22m.html

"PORTLAND — A constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, approved by voters in 2004, has been upheld by the Oregon Court of Appeals.

Gay and lesbian couples argued that Measure 36 should be overturned because it amounted to a revision to the Oregon Constitution rather than an amendment.

An amendment to the constitution can be made directly by voters through an initiative, but a revision can be referred to voters only after approval by two-thirds of the Oregon Legislature.

The amendment said that only marriage between one man and one woman shall be legally recognized in Oregon.

In an opinion by Presiding Judge Rick Haselton, the Court of Appeals said the ban "would not result in the kind of fundamental change in the constitution that would constitute a revision."...

Mark Johnson, lead attorney for the couples, said an appeal was planned...."
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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Interesting...I think the case is somewhat stronger in CA
Then again, it may be a moot point if one is to believe the Field Poll. :)
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FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-28-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. True - but I dont trust polls until the day after an election
I worked on No on Knight (Prop 22) and Im not looking forward to working on any thing like it in the future... so Im crossing my fingers that the Amendment did not get enough valid signatures to get on the ballot...

While Obama is not my choice the side effect of him getting the nod could be a large young voter turn out which is a very good thing if the Amendment makes the ballot.
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