I am fucking sick and fucking tired of the apologists

NO, Your religion, race, culture does not excuse homophobia. Really, NO it fucking does not.

I come from a homophobic culture and country. I do not think its OK. I do not think India is evolved and thats really all there is to it. I cannot excuse my people for being narrowminded towards me. I cannot excuse the laws we have against us. All of it is unexcusable. Indian have as much of a moral imperative to be less bigoted as westerners do.

I am tired of people excusing homophobia because of religion. Wanting us to be more religion-sensitive while their religion doesn't find the need to be sensitive towards us, is ridiculous. For those of you who sit in your churches while they condemn us, while you claim not to personally condemn us, remember your silence is consent.


SILENCE IS CONSENT

SILENCE = DEATH.

handle the thought of the sex. It gets them wiggy. JMO.

Until the time in which ministers are not allowed to preach intolerance, religion will remain the driving force of homophobia.

I'd think that was high.

I don't know the numbers, but I do know that the churches pumped lots of money into the campaign. and yes, I do believe that they were the driving force.

the OP is right...too many excuses.

'friends' over the years that I believe would have voted for Prop 8 - I think a lot of people that are friendly with us on an individual level, cannot bring themselves to vote for equality and I do think the sex thing is a big part of it.

I just want to make sure we're not throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

And when the f*ck did equal rights under the law and justice for all citizens have to pass a "bedroom" test?

Or how you look test?

Or the color of your skin test?

Or your ethnic origin test?

Or your religion test?

It is human rights that is at the core of this.

Once you subject it to one, you are saying it isn't a right.

I agree. That's why the issue of justice is settled in Courts, agree in that too.

That will take some years to swing it our way. Until then, I don't know where all this piecemeal stuff leads us. Looks like Chaos to me.

to unity, to donations for legal action, financial sanctions on hate eighters, the usual "stuff".

This is actually a very interesting conundrum because we will see just how open-minded the Democratic party is when push comes to shove. And because almost three-fourths of BP voted in favor of it, it creates a little confusion.

If people read more gay literature, saw more gay movies, and knew more gay people, they'd get a whole new point of view. It wouldn't be "strange" to them.

I cannot believe that people who just voted to take our rights away have the audacity to call US intolerant. The Yes on 8 people need to get a grip.

are against 'marriage' for GLBTs. You're being an ass when you assign all the guilt to those with religious beliefs. First, you alienate those who don't regard gays as not deserving of equal rights but have a connection to a religious organization. Second, you let a shitload of people who do believe that way off the hook. Not everyone who voted for Prop 8 is a church goer.

and religion is the #1 "acceptable" rationale for opposing GLBT rights.

Don't be a fool yourself.

Just don't ask for support from people like myself. From my point of view you're just as bad as the people you're bitching about.

I read it to be against churches that are homophobic. Not all churches are that way. I am actively involved in an Episcopal Church which has never condoned hate from the pulpit. If they did, I would find another church. If I stayed I would feel that I was condoning the hate.

It was specific, not an all or nothing statement.

a few years ago. Sad of course, but it was so meaningful when the minister (priest? dont know Episcopal lingo) came up to us after and welcomed us for all time, seeing two guys together who did not know when to stand up, turn around, all of that. She just walked up and lavished acceptance on us, unasked and without a shred of anyting but love and dignity. Also, she was a she, which was cool too. This was a family member's church, and it meant so much to me. It was real, it was also kinda Christlike, if I may go so far.
Sweet people, and the food was just the best!

then I have nothing to answer for. You do.

There are plenty of churches who embrace GLBT people fully and support our rights. You shouldn't need your ass kissed to do the right thing.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I realize this must have been difficult for you, since we're a bunch of queers and homos here.

Next up, please go to the women's forum and tell them to shut up about equal pay for equal work and not wanting to be a bunch of breeding machines.

Then go down to the AA forum and tell them that, there is now a level playing field and they'll clearly not have to have constant oversight to make sure that they're treated equally. Oh, wait. Nebraska. Right.

With "friends" like you...

it's for you, it's Sarah. :rofl:

a message board post can turn you away from supporting equality.

"Just don't ask for support from people like myself."

And for whom do you speak?

nice attempt to change the subject.

Obey your commandment.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

oh wait...it IS in the OP!

Willfull ignorance and bogarting a thread is so 2007. The dumbya era of lies and deception is over.

Have you heard? :rofl:

the OP was clearly written about people who are excusing bigotry in their religions and their communities.

LOTS of churches are NOT bigoted. LOTS of people are not bigoted. The OP is clearly addressed however to those who are, and to those who excuse them

not much against homophobic bigotry but a lot about a straw man argument about something else, in this case religion.

You don't wait until someone asks for your support.

My reading of the OP was that she was addressing those who try to hide behind the shield of their religion as an excuse for their homophobia and bigotry. If you are not a homophobe or a bigot, then her comments were not directed to you and there is no need for you to take anything personally. No one called you a "rotten asshole."

Christians are clearly taught not to bear false witness, and to speak so clealy that your 'yea is yea, and your nay is nay'.
And yet here you are, claiming others said things they did not say, using a tone that no one here used, and you are doing so in order to demand respect that you have been taught by Christ not to even expect, much less demand.
Funny. Yet another religionist claiming others need to follow a religion they themselves hold in utter disregard. Here is yet another religionist, telling everyone to eat kosher only, while havinig a nice ham and cheese sandwich.
Have a nice hypocrisy!

we can kick ass all on our own without resorting to asking bigots for their help. because the people we are calling "rotten assholes" are bigots who say we should just happily and quietly accept second class citizen status. so if your are lumping yourself in with those people, then you must indeed be a "rotten asshole" (your term) or a bigot (mine).

i'm sure this will get deleted, but he started it!

Stating a fact is not the same as supporting bigotry.

If you spend $20 million to finance a campaign, then you're a rotten asshole. If you think that it's wrong to criticize bigotry on that scale, then you're essentially supporting the expenditure of $20 million to promote bigotry, and you could very well be a rotten asshole.

I'd like to think that you're not supporting the decision to spend $20 million to promote bigotry because that would make you a rotten asshole.

Who needs you. Whatever religion you follow, it's empty and useless.

ooooh , your feeling are hurt because some fellow churchgiers got called on their bigotry. If you're a church goer it ought to be YOU calling it out. Didn;t Jesus tech you anything?
Silence = Death.

ooooh , your feeling are hurt because some fellow churchgiers got called on their bigotry. If you're a church goer it ought to be YOU calling it out. Didn;t Jesus tech you anything?
Silence = Death.

:shrug:

I think people use religion as an excuse. They really have other reasons.

If you are a progressive then you support human rights and equal justice under the law.

She was talking about the ones who voted to take our rights away, specifically. She also said quite clearly that she wasn't ONLY talking about the ones who use religion as their excuse.

What's up with your knee jerk reaction?

edit: the broad brush strokes of the original post are very apparent.

that's what the OP said. That's what this thread is about.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

That explains it. :eyes:

:rofl:

That says everything I need to know.

so is

"Special right..." Like hate crimes!?

"Life style"

"You can pass"

"It's a choice..."

"And some of my best friends are gay BUT..."

no where did i say ALL RELIGIONS.

there are plenty of churches who do support us.

while bogarting a thread for their own cause.

That is what she meant by "if."

that some here had to do some fancy spinning to twist reality and yet, so sadly....failed.

The offended did not think the OP was referring to all religious people.

The offended is in the category of anti-gay religious persons. Hence the offense.

but can't admit that - so she is trying to make it seems as if gays were against all anti-religion.

Then, she can pass the thread around while palling around with haters. She's baiting us.

but was conflated it with being religious.

Now I understand. She is actually anti civil rights herself.

I should have figured it out right after the "live and let live" comment. I've almost never known that term to be anything but a homophobes's defense, along the lines of "some of my best friends".

from defending the right to religious bigotry, that's why lionesspri's post flushed her out.

"live and let live..." will add that to the list.

Read in context, it means leave me alone with your problems... at best.

per se.

Please consider re-reading.

She's talking about religious people who ARE. That was pretty clear.

And anyone who would be 'alienated' by pointing out the problems in the religious community is not an allie anyway. Support that hangs upon control of the people you claim to support is simply that: control, not support. So remove it if you'd like, it is not there anyway.
As the OP said, they are in silent agreement. And by the way, this constant demand for respect for 'the faith' strikes me as rather sacreligious itself. Jesus of course told his people to rejoice when they are persecuted, to be thankful when mocked for his sake. And yet instead of rejoicing all we hear are feet stomping on the ground, threats of 'support' withheld, and demands that the 'faith' be praised and held in high esteem regardless of the facts.
I find that odd.

Silence=Death

vocal (so to speak) demand that all believers not be labeled bigots and criticized for shit they had nothing to do with. If that's too difficult for you to grasp, I'm sorry.

Try to understand that.

I'll be waiting.

<snip>

I am tired of people excusing homophobia because of religion. Wanting us to be more religion-sensitive while their religion doesn't find the need to be sensitive towards us, is ridiculous. For those of you who sit in your churches while they condemn us, while you claim not to personally condemn us, remember your silence is consent.

<snip>

Reading comperhension counts.

rather than listening.

Then perhaps you can tell us what is wrong in this post.

It is aimed at people who sit in one of those churches. Are you claiming all churches are bigoted?

Because that seems awfully harsh of you and it would be inaccurate.

their churches. That would be the OP.

The OP specified a subsection of believers. Not ALL.

their bigotry, the respondent is pushing an idea that gays are anti-religion - all religion.

For her own purpose.

of people who sit in them and listen to homophobic preachers and then hide behind that as an excuse.

It was also about a variety of other excuses and YOU keep bogarting this thread for your own agenda - which is to postray gays as anti all churches.

Good luck with that.

You haven't said anything about them.

Your reply above does not back up your prior claim, and I think you willfully misunderstand the OP's words.

If you sit in a church where hatred and homophobia is preached from the pulpit, does that make you, personally, a bigot? No, of course not. But that does mean that you are condoning that bigotry by not speaking out against it.

Simple nuance to be sure, but there is a difference. The OP has not said what you are claiming she said, as has been pointed out to you repeatedly in this thread.

Where did I say 'silent demand for respect'? Can you even read? My whole point is that your are very vocally demanding that which Christ told you not to expect, in fact he said to rejoice in the lack of respect.
You keep saying 'all believers' as if anyone else had said that. You make up quotes for other people, as you can not bear to read and respond to the truth of your own Scriptures.
I did not even come close to saying what you claim. I said, in fact, the opposite. I said you and other hypocritical fake religionists demand loudly a bunch of false respect, no matter what your actions, not matter what the fruit you bear tells us about the tree you are.

and you do not quit the church (religion is a choice) you are complicit. period.

That's an indisputable fact.

Are all religious people homophobic? No.

Are there some homophobes who base their hatred on something besides religion? There is a small minority and we have to work with them as well.

But we cannot ignore the issue, which is that the overwhelming majority of homophobia stems from religion and verses plucked from "holy books". People use religion both as a weapon against us and as a shield for themselves to prevent criticism or question of their words/actions. Calling them on it does not let them off the hook. It puts them on the spot and tells them "we're not going to allow this any longer".

always quick to whip out some variation of "The Bible says Adam & Eve, not Adam & Steve", or some such similar example of douchebaggery to just their own prejudices...

And the Church's beliefs influence even non-members, by supporting people's prejudices.

She isn't a fool and she has just as much a right to her opinion as you do to yours. Why do you feel the need to put her down to support your argument? Is it because you think your argument isn't strong enough without at least one insult thrown in?

Because it deserves to be there.

Righteous rant, Pri, and I could not agree with you more!

K&R

Brothers and sisters can not legally marry but that infringes on the rights of any who might want to.

Marriage is limited to a one on one relationship but that infringes on the rights of any who want to have multiple partners.

Marriage is limited in most cases to one man and one woman - but that infringes on the rights of same sex couples.

One possibility is we can open marriage to any relationship between consenting adults. We can open it less wide and say it is a one on one relationship between consenting adults who are not closely related.

Lets get the argument right so that we can fight it. Otherwise it is just name calling and bigotry between different groups.

There will certainly be bigots who are anti-religion or anti-homosexuality - those groups will never come together. However, my hope is that most people are reasonable and can have reasonable discourse to move the issue forward- I may be wrong.

I'm surprised you didn't throw NAMBLA in there while you were at it. What a half assed effort.

Society has a duty to protect from harm.

Same sex marriage is a "good" for society. It promotes stable, loving relationships between consenting adults and when applicable,their kids.

I support equal rights for all people under law and that means same-sex marriage.

Is there a forum for other alternative forms of marriage? Because this is not the intermarriage between siblings forum, nor is it the topic at hand.

who may actually know something?
.......
POLICY STATEMENT

PEDIATRICS Vol. 109 No. 2 February 2002, pp. 339-340

AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS
Coparent or Second-Parent Adoption by Same-Sex Parents
Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health

ABSTRACT

Children who are born to or adopted by 1 member of a same-sex couple deserve the security of 2 legally recognized parents. Therefore, the American Academy of Pediatrics supports legislative and legal efforts to provide the possibility of adoption of the child by the second parent or coparent in these families.

Children deserve to know that their relationships with both of their parents are stable and legally recognized. This applies to all children, whether their parents are of the same or opposite sex. The American Academy of Pediatrics recognizes that a considerable body of professional literature provides evidence that children with parents who are homosexual can have the same advantages and the same expectations for health, adjustment, and development as can children whose parents are heterosexual.1–9 When 2 adults participate in parenting a child, they and the child deserve the serenity that comes with legal recognition.
...........

stable relationships are for the good of society, stable homes that allow for support of couples with full rights - into old age so as OT to be a burden on society--stable homes for rasing children.

So, the lame comparison that in-breeding is analogous to something else is wrong.

I think I have all the bases covered:

Incest? Check.

Same-sex marriage? Check.

Polygamy? Check.

Zoophilia? Check.

Necrophilia? Check.

Marrying a minor? Check.

If we're gonna go down this "slippery slope," as the right-wing wants to suggest, I think we should do it all the way. Let's demand the rights to do whatever the hell we want, under the guise of "marriage," and let's get all sorts of legal protections. That's EXACTLY what the GLBT community wants!!11!

:sarcasm:

I would be just happy to have full and equal marital rights with my partner. :toast:

It is ridiculous that those who are oppressed STILL go out and become apologists for those who hate and oppressed them. It is akin to some African-American becoming an apologist for the slave owners. I wonder if this stems from some deeply seated self-hatred on the part of some GLBTQ people.

I agree on Indians...given their oppression, they should be much more tolerant of LGBTQ Indians. I have noticed the tendency of oppressed peoples turning around and being just as, if not more, oppressive than the former oppressor, towards their LGbTQ countrymen/women.

Thank Goddess I am not in a mainline religion. I am part of the Friends Community Catholic Church and we welcome all people to our services and we provide the sacraments for all, regardless of race, sexual identity, disability....I am a bishop in that church and I can assure you that I do not tolerate intolerance in the guise of religion--neither do any members of the church I know.

Thanks for posting this, lioness. As always, a wonderful post.

would ever accept to defend racism.

Done!

And using whatever they feel the need to grab on to in order to rationalize away the bigotry that festers deep down inside of them.

K&R

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Why should I excuse a stranger's?

There is NO EXCUSE for BIGOTRY. Even silent bigotry.

but when the conversation is about the catholic church all of a sudden we have to be sensitive, i consider the lot of you highly hypocritical.

Could not agree more.

:applause:

Mormons...they believe crazy stuff like when you die...you can become a god of another planet. Catholicism doesn't have anything weird in it--just perfectly normal stuff like a magic cracker that turns into the flesh of a 2000 year old dead guy when you eat it.

People deserve to be treated as people, period. People deserve the same rights as everyone else under our laws, period. It boggles my mind when people use their religious beliefs as basis for their bigotry. I was born straight. I was also born biracial (actually multi-racial). I cannot help how I was born but I have experienced bigotry over my life because of the way I look. It has never, ever made sense to me.

Besides, according to various religious doctrines, we are all supposed be created by a perfect, omnipotent being who does not make mistakes. If god created me differently than someone else, it means he/she/it did for a reason. So, according to them, I am one of god's creations and I am equal in god's eyes.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I thought religions are supposed to be based on love, acceptance and understanding, not fear. If a religion is preaching fear, hate and bigotry then it is not a true religion, rather it is a cult of hate.

I wish I could recommend this post. It reminds me of the old saying my grandmother used to use, "God don't make no junk. He loves me just as much as he loves everyone else, no more, no less."

I'm tired of people excusing bigotry because of someones religion. :applause:

:headbang:

When the Lioness lays it down, it stays down.

a lot of people who are "fresh off the boat" so to speak, have a tendency to bring their societal and religious mores with them, and this is particularly true of India (where most worship more than one God) and China (where it is not even popular to be religious). Don't people realize that their own minority rights are at stake here as well? It's easy enough to join the side of the oppressors, until you realize that the core of the oppression is all about making radical changes to our governmental plan that would have them fleeing back to their respective homelands, wondering what has happened to America.

Agreed, religion does not excuse bigotry, but using one poll to scapegoat a certain race or religion as being responsible for Prop 8, is of course, no more excusable.

Americans United for the Separation of Church and State refer to them as the "Religious Right," rather than put every church into a bad category.

;)

is pro human rights and welcomes all people.

nice to see you, and thanks for your comment. using one exit poll to scapegoat black people certainly is not excusable. :hi:

Noiretblu. :hi:

of the SBC laying out his strategy for the GOP: to embrace "ethnic voters and be more inclusive", based on what?

A great conservative approach to the economy, environment, job loss, war?

Nope!

Their agenda- to peel off members the progressive coalition with cultural wars: family values and pro life.

That's all they got left folks and they are still thrashing this idea.

who are members of this Religious Hardright organization.

They give the term "ignorant" new meaning.

and we will fights the hard core bigots and at the same time figure out how to negotiate through the attitudes of the people that are open to reason and a change of heart and mind.

We will need allies. Until then, we need to keep fighting in the Courts.

i have no problem with anyone's religion, as long as they don't use it to oppress me. if they wanna hate me, i don't care. but when they try to turn there hate into law, i'm gonna fight back. LOUDLY.

I'm really pretty sick and tired of religion being used as the excuse for all sorts of hateful behavior, but these days homophobia is the worst of it.

racists, sexists, and other assorted assholes. these people hate you because of who you love, the color of your skin, your gender, even your politics. no matter how much you decry these people, their thoughts and actions...they still exist. and as we know in california, they had the power to overturn a basic human right. fortunately, we also have a supreme court that will rule in our favor.

Way we figure it, in the wild dance of creation, some dance with the opposite sex, some dance with the same sex and it's all good. The love shared between two men or two women is the same quality of love shared between a husband and wife so why should we make distinctions on the people that love is between?

:thumbsup:

"the wild dance of creation"

I like it.

I'm sick of having people beat me over the head for saying the Mormon church is wrong in supporting Prop 8. "Religion-bashing!" Bullshit.

:)

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

those drama queens.. how dramatic to want to be considered full human beings w.all human rights

If it weren't for drama queens, the gay rights movement wouldn't have made it as far as it has.

If it hadn't been for Act Up, and other activists, AIDS would have remained in the closet killing gays and heteros alike.

If not, then your civil rights are intact, and you wouldn't understand the outrage. Nor would I imagine that you care, based on the tone of your reply.

Based on the thread title, you knew exactly what the tone of the OP would be before you even clicked the link to read it. But yet, armed with that knowledge, you chose to read it and comment. If the OP is a "fucking drama queen," then I suppose that makes you a "fucking drama junkie."

Please feel free to return at a later time.

i have found bigots to be remarkably stupid and uninformed

100% agree. :hi:

Agree 100% lionesspriyanka!

It's time to stop supporting religious institutions that deny gay rights. End of story.

You are so right.

That being said, there's no reason to use Prop 8 as an excuse to be racist. You haven't been doing it, most people here haven't been doing it, but I have seen it happen, with people saying things like "Black people are the reason Prop 8 was passed".

We should never give a free pass to bigots, no matter what race or religion they are. However, painting whole groups of people (not just a culture or the teachings of a church) isn't really going to help anyone. No, we don't have to be universally liked, however, reaching out to communities of color, for example, serves us a lot better than alienating them by making racist comments.

Again, not saying you (or pretty much anyone here) is doing this, I'm just commenting on what I've seen and heard of a bit, not just here.

I think it would also serve a lot of the GLBTQQ movement to acknowledge intersectionality more - I wish I had a dime for everytime someone essentially implied all GLBTQQ people are white (or able-bodied, middle-class, etc.)

I'll respect their rights when they respect mine.

:kick: