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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 08:07 AM
Original message
The Cholesterol Con -- Where Were the Doctors?
The Cholesterol Con -- Where Were the Doctors?

By Maggie Mahar, Health Beat. Posted February 29, 2008.

For years, medical studies have challenged the efficacy of cholesterol-lowering drugs. Why are we just hearing about this now?


After the stock market bubble burst, the New York Times asked: "Where were the analysts? Why didn't they warn us?"

To be perfectly honest, this was a somewhat disingenuous question. As experienced financial journalists understood all too well, the analysts plugging the high-flying issues of the 1990s were employed by Wall Street firms raking in billions as investors bet their nest eggs on one hot stock after another. It really wasn't in their employers' interest for analysts to tell us that their products were wildly overpriced. When a small investor wades into the financial world, there are two words he needs to keep in mind: caveat emptor.

But physicians, I firmly believe, are different from the folks employed by Merrill Lynch. (I don't mean to knock people who work at ML. I am simply saying that they have a very different job description.) When consulting with your doctor, you should not have to be wary. You are not a customer; you are a patient. And your physician is a professional who has pledged to put your interests ahead of his or her own.

This brings me to the question I ask in my headline: During the many years of the Cholesterol Con, where were the doctors? When everyone from the makers of Mazola Corn Oil to the Popes of Cardiology assured us that virtually anyone could ward off heart disease by lowering their cholesterol, why didn't more of our doctors raise an eyebrow and warn us: "Actually, that's not what the research shows"?

No doubt, you've heard about the recent Business Week cover story, "Do Cholesterol Drugs Do Any Good?", which blew the lid off the theory that "statins" -- drugs like Lipitor, Crestor, Mevacor, Zocor and Pravachol -- can cut the odds that you will die of a heart attack by slowing the production of cholesterol in your body and increasing the liver's ability to remove LDL, or "bad cholesterol," from your blood.

It's true that these drugs can help some people -- but not nearly as many as we have been told. Moreover, and this is the kicker, we don't have any clear evidence that they work by lowering cholesterol.

more...

http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/77916/?page=entire
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
1. No shit. I lowered my cholesterol by 44 points in a year just by changing my eating
habits only.

The drugs don't do shit. It think they appear to work just because people change their eating habits while on the drugs.

My dr wanted to prescribe something and I was like just wait and see. Do drs get a kick back on this shit?
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I think the drugs arise more from people's laziness than anything else.
"Give me a pill doc, and let me get back to eating whatever I want."

If there's a demand, the marketplace will create a product. Doesn't mean the product will address the cause of the demand, but it will sell.
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lizerdbits Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. When my BIL was given a drug and diet recommendations
his cholesterol was so low they took him off the drug. His doctor was surprised that he followed the diet because apparently few people do in that doctor's experience. I think he was doing the 'young and single' diet of fast food, take out, and pizza.

On the other hand my mom's cholesterol is high and even went up when she did that Ornish diet. She eats better than my dad (they mostly eat the same meals but he likes snack foods), and his is good, but he exercises more intensely than she does (she mostly walks) so that could be part genetics and part activity level or just one of those.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. Hubby learned in residency to shorten his diet and exercise spiel.
Not once did he ever have a patient choose to work on weight and cholesterol levels and blood pressure by diet and exercise alone. He always offered it, offered to help with it with the nutritionist, etc. They never took it--they all wanted the pill.

He still offers it but does a shorter spiel now. He's had a couple take him up on it, but that's after almost four years in practice.
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Missy M Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. What habits did you change....
it's great you were able to lower cholesterol by 44 points. Did you change to a mainly vegetable diet? Or did you stop eating at places like McDonald's etc.? I am very interested to know.
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Changed to mostly veggies and brown rice, no beef, I added bran cereal or oatmeal to
Edited on Fri Feb-29-08 08:31 AM by xultar
my breakfast almost every day.

I did cut down on eating out a ton. I almost NEVER cooked and now I mostly cook. I think that is why eating out tastes so good...they smoother the most insane shit with fat, like sauces and dressings.

Now when I eat out I just do steamed veggies and chicken or fish.

GOD I feel so much better!

Even my Dr was shocked. I told her I was working on it. But I need to save money and I don't want to spend it on medication.
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Missy M Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Do you enhance the veggies, rice and chicken, fish...
with herbs or olive oil? Do you use pasta at all?
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Yes some wheat pasta but not much. I love the olive oil. I investigated
seasonings in the ethnic food aisle in the grocery and I went to ethnic grocery stores, like Indian and Korean in my area. I found a Goya seasoning that I use sparingly on veggies cuz it has a lot of salt but I sprinkle it on salads and veggies, chicken, turkey, rice...everything. The stuff is GREAT the flavor seems to change based the foods! Makes me want to eat the stuff which is cool.
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Missy M Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Thanks for the info xultar.....
you have inspired me to try and change my diet. The lowering cholesterol by 44 points in a year, without drugs, is impressive.
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. You should have seen my Drs. Face. I thought she was gonna pass out.
It was sooooo funny. Cuz she had just taken blood to test for this year against last and she said, "Well it was really high last time what do you want to do about it?" I said, "I've been working on it so let's see." Then she said, "I'll give you a few months and then we'll prescribe something." Well a few days later when I came in for the results, she looked COMPLETELY STUNNED as she read them. I said to her, "I said I've been working on it."

I'm shocked to tell you the truth...but dang it if it didn't work.
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leftyladyfrommo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
40. You sound just like me. I don't cook - ate out a lot.
I quit eating meat for about a thousand different reasons.

Now I try to just have oatmeal and raisins for breakfast at least 4 times a week. And brown rice and vegetables for lunch. And then yogurt and fruit everyday.

I do feel better. But I think a diet that is this strict would bother a lot of people. I don't much care about food so it doesn't bother me.
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Liberal Gramma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. My success story
It may not work for everyone, but I lowered my cholesterol from 249 to 187 by losing five pounds, eating oatmeal for breakfast, and replacing the cream in my coffee with a cinnamon stick. I didn't want to take statins and was willing to make lifestyle changes to avoid it. (The cream was a REAL sacrifice!)
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
4. Your genetics have more to do with it
than anything else. My wife's cholesterol readings without meds are in the 400's, her triglycerides are almost a thousand. Mine are in the 160's with triglycerides in the 30-40's. And I eat more grease than she does. I'm way overweight and have other health problems but my ticker is in great shape-it confounds my doctors. They've run scans of my heart, my carotid arteries, etc. and they're clean as a whistle. I tell them that on my mother's side of the family, they all look like me and live well into their eighties and it's not a heart attack that gets them. I have a great-uncle that's a 107 now. He's only 5'5" and still weighs over 200. He gets out and about, and his mind is still sharp.
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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Kinda the same here.
Lipitor reduced my cholesterol 68% in 90 days.

Physician says it's because of genetics (since my diet didn't change).

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IowaGirl Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. Genetics are really a huge part......
I was working out with a mother and her adult daughter at the gym. They were discussing their low cholesterol and I asked if they were on medication. The mother said, "No." I said, "Wow, that's great! Your mother must have lived to a ripe old age." She said, "Yes, she's 103, now." Genetics are important and low cholesterol really does increase your longevity.
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Kokonoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
10. If you have high cholesterol, try antioxidants.
plaque is a chemical reaction with cholesterol. I drink a lot of tea, and hope for the best.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
11. What works for me
I have had several idiosyncratic reactions to drugs and lifestyle changes alike.

Initial values: Weight 290 (at 5'8"), Glucose 129, Cholesterol 260, Triglycerides 1000 (!), Blood Pressure 220/150 (!!!). Never smoked, no alcohol, minor rec drug use that ended around 1988 -- never really liked any of it. I do take maintenance doses of opioid drugs for chronic severe pain. Because of the blood pressure, I was at risk for an immanent stroke and long-term congestive heart failure.

Previous "dieting": A vegetarian diet induced diabetes. I spent four years in three episodes of "going vedge" and each time, my glucose rose to 130-140. As little as one month of strict low-carb eating would correct it (my usual normal glucose has been 90-95 for as long as I can remember). In that period (1993-1997) my weight went from 205 to 275. My vegetarian friends were appalled, swore I was lying, and told me that I Must Be Doing Something Wrong. I kept detailed food logs for two doctors and a couple of well-meaning friends. These days I eat a higher-than-usual amount of protein, low saturated fats, and a lot of vegetables, but no fruits.

One of my doctors has kept careful records of his patients' diet regimes, and thinks that as much as a quarter of the population responds especially poorly to the standard-issue advice of "less meat, more carbs". I wasn't the first patient he had seen that developed type-2 diabetes from a high-carb, low-protein diet, though it remains the best solution for most people. He thinks that someday soon, a genetic test will reveal both dietary and drug reaction patterns. The matter is already under formal study by several scientists.

I can't take statin drugs -- nearly everyone on my mother's side of the family has developed rhabdomyolysis from them. Niacin brought my triglycerides down nearly 500 points -- then they began to rise inexplicably. But my cholesterol is down to 210, and staying down. Now I take gemfibrozil, but have been on it less than 3 months, so I'm waiting to see how it works.

I have also been quite sick, which can boost both glucose and TG levels. I was taking a beta-blocker for the blood pressure; they can also boost these values. I am now taking an ACE inhibitor. Again, I just started it, and I need to wait for my next blood test.

But I have always gotten a tremendously good response from exercise. The problem had been that my balance has been very poor, and deteriorating, from ear damage. I had become sedentary. I finally threw vanity to the wind and bought a cane. Now I can take long walks again, up to 2 1/2 hours at a time, and work out with 2-liter plastic bottles filled with water or sand. NOW the weight is beginning to come off.

I want to make the point, though, that I am convinced that becoming sensitive to one's body again is a key, but missing, factor in regaining health. People are so "numbed" to their bodies that they forget how to tell what is good and what is bad -- yet they are over-sensitive to minor stresses. Like prisoners, they put up with day-in-day-out misery, but fly off the handle over picayune and insignificant changes or problems.

"They"? No, "WE". I have been there, and still am to an extent. But simply paying attention to my body has led me to regain my ability to sense hew eating and exercising makes me feel.

After 15 months: Weight 255 (at 5'8"), Glucose 93, Cholesterol 210, Triglycerides 500 (as low as 250), Blood Pressure 130/85.

For what it's worth, that's how I have been coping with both degenerative illness and "middle-age fat-man syndrome". Pay attention to how you feel, don't be so quick to baby yourself, don't take stock advice as gospel, and perhaps most important, find a physician who will work with you. Time was that physicians thought of themselves as engineers with a knack for making money. But the new generation of physicians is much more in-tune with issues of overall health and "lifestyle" medicine.

Good luck!

--p!
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. I have been eating more peanut butter, olive oil, and eggs
Edited on Fri Feb-29-08 01:57 PM by DemReadingDU
I was restricting too much fat/cholesterol in my diet and cholesterol reading was around 220 but HDL is 60+, and I do a lot of walking. I did some reading, and found that if the body doesn't get enough cholesterol in the foods you eat, the body will overcompensate and make more cholesterol. So I started eating more peanut butter, olive oil, and eggs...and cholesterol dropped 25 points. Under 200 and my doctor was pleased.

:)

edit...
My sister's cholesterol is about 300 with HDL over 100, but she runs and ice skates. Her doctor wanted to put her on statin drugs. She said no. He told her to take all these stress tests thinking that she would fail something. He was shocked when she passed everything and no need to get on drugs.

We are both of thin frames.

However, our father was obese. Lived to be 83, never exercised. Always had high cholesterol. There is something to cholesterol in families, and there is something in the genes, other than cholesterol, that causes heart attacks.
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chicagomd Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
13. This shit drives me nuts.
Where were the doctors?

We were (and are) telling patients to eat less, exercise more, stop smoking, drink less, trying to get insurance companies to pay for nutritional consultations, and writing guidelines that ALL START WITH DIET AND EXERCISE.

How is it the fault of my profession that half the population of the US doesn't want to get off its collective ass, turn off American fucking Idol, and take a walk outside?

All pharmaceuticals should only be used in selected populations. If you don't select the population appropriately, the results don't pan out. When you advertise on TV and try to convince everyone that THEY are in the selected population and you create a demand that shouldn't be there, the result don't pan out. Couple that with suppressing negative studies and BING, you get where we are today.

/rant off.


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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. They also heard the same thing from nurses
whenever we had contact with them. Here, there's a strong cultural barrier against adopting a healthy diet. Everything the Hispanos eat is swimming in lard and loaded with salt. Telling them to change their diet was telling them to abandon their culture, something they weren't prepared to do. Telling them to quit smoking was considerably more successful. Telling them how to start exercising also worked. Letting go of that diet? Forget it.

I always cornered the cook in the house and talked about cutting quantities of lard and salt in half and then doing it again in six months. Sometimes that would work. Nothing else did.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. You're entirely right. Hubby would agree with you.
He's an internist, and very few of his patients want to do it the hard way.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
42. In my experience....
...(and some of my best friends over the years have been doctors; I like them as a rule)...the first recommendation from a doctor's mouth is a prescription med -- whatever's in vogue at the time. I believe it's true that physicians are jaded by the American epidemic of obesity and lack of exercise, and so it has been easy to fall into a cookie cutter practice of medicine. If most people aren't going to be compliant, it would be easiest to just write the scrip and utter some jargon.

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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
15. They lost me when they started saying people with
cholesterol in the normal range but with a family history of heart disease needed their cholesterol lowered. That sounded too much like drug company propaganda.

No, doc, something else is at work there besides cholesterol. If the cholesterol is normal, they're nonsmokers and they're still getting chest pain, look for another mechanism. Give them nitrates and calcium channel blockers to make sure they aren't having arterial spasms and go from there.

Statins are great drugs that have prolonged the lives of more than one friend of mine with extremely high cholesterol, readings above 300 at a young age and unaffected by diet.

They do have their use and are potential lifesavers.
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fed-up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
17. after my mom's massive stroke used diet changes to lower cholesterol & blood sugar-no meds needed nt
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
20. Can pomegranate juice lower cholesterol?
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
21. I have familial hypercholesterolemia
I had a heart attack when I was 23.....blood cholesterol level well over 500. My dad was dead from his fourth heart attack at 39....I'm 36 now.

Because I've been taking these demonized statin drugs, my cholesterol is now nearly 200. That's right, a drop of over 300 points!!!! 44 points wouldn't be a drop in the bucket for me.

I have had no development of my plaques since I went on these drugs, and they are credited with saving my life because I would be dead without them.

So these articles can spout all the statistics they want, but IN MY CASE, the drugs are the main reason I am still alive. Will I die of a heart attack? Perhaps someday, but these drugs have GREATLY increased the time I have until that happens. The only thing that matters are those plaques and the level of inflammation.

Contradictory evidence abounds in the sciences....anyone with an agenda can cherry pick a case. I'll let my doctor decide what is right after reading all of the relevent literature and deciding what the preponderance of the evidence suggests, not some layman's interpretation in "Businessweek".
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Check my response #26 down thread. Studies in Europe and here
in the US indicate that the use of statins in patients exhibiting heart disease, i.e. having had a heart attack, respond extremely well to statin treatment. However, lowering cholesterol in patients without existing heart disease has no effect on life expectancy. Those saved from heart attacks are offset by those who die of other causes.

The conclusion reached in the ASCOTT study (google is your friend) is that there is some factor other than cholesterol that causes heart disease in most men.

Further, to actually reduce plaque the LDL level must be maintained below 70, something that isn't sustainable for most people.

The cholesterol model is only one factor for heart disease. Homocysteine levels are another. The difference is that Homocysteine level can be controlled with over-the-counter B vitamins and they lower plaque build up as well.

Obviously your case is considerably different from someone with an cholesterol level of 225-290. The point of the article was that, like chemo therapy, statin therapy should be dictated by improvements in life expectancy (and quality).
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. everyone is an individual
And, as Business Week article points out, you are among those that really, really benefit from statin drugs.
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RIindependent Donating Member (80 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
24. Great site to learn about cholesterol
When I learned my cholesterol was high I started searching the web for answers. The most informative site is this one. Hope it helps.

heartscanblog.blogspot.com

Sorry, I don't do links.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
25. MDs are taught virtually nothing about nutrition...their job is to cure disease, not to prevent it.
I can see my Gp's eyes go all blank whenever I mention using vitamins, herbs or anything else to help with a problem. I would be interested in knowing how much stock in drug companies is owned by physicians and/or their professional groups...and ergo, how much drug stock each physician owns.

I have always said that instead of a diploma from a medical school, I think doctors should hang their transcripts. I would like to know just how well they did in their classes while in medical school....not just that they graduated.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. My husband is a family doc
and was taught next to nothing about nutrition when he was in school years ago. He has a lot of patients who use herbs and he has me research them to make sure there are no contraindications with the meds his patients are on. I think that in the future herbalism will be incorporated into the curicculum. It will have to be.
And btw, we own no drug company stocks.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Your husband's patients are very fortunate to have someone like him taking care of them..
Edited on Fri Feb-29-08 09:05 PM by BrklynLiberal
I believe he is the exception, not the rule, when it comes to the current crop of MDs. He must be quite a wonderful person.
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
26. I've read the replies to Babylon's OP and everybody seems to be
Edited on Fri Feb-29-08 03:25 PM by flamin lib
missing the point of the article. Moderately high cholesterol is not a problem. Levels of 225-300 do not contribute to heart disease. Controlling cholesterol is a waste of time and energy.

I've been on statins for about three years and after the Business Week article I did my own research. In double blind studies of men with 4 or more risk factors for heart attack the group of 100 taking placebo had 3 heart attacks after five years and the 100 taking Lipitor had two. Treat 100 men for five years to prevent one heart attack. Meanwhile they suffer liver damage, kidney damage, memory loss, impotence, joint and muscle pain.

A very interesting study in Europe, the ASCOTT study, covered 20,000 subjects for three years in double blind experiments. Two groups: men with 4 risks of heart disease including high cholesterol and men exhibiting existing heart disease regardless of cholesterol level. The first group showed a 1% decrease in heart attacks but no decrease in deaths overall with statin treatment. The second showed a 30% decrease in second heart attacks. The conclusion reached was that controlling cholesterol made no difference in life expectancy but treating existing heart disease with statins was very effective, therefore the vector for heart attack is something as yet undetermined other than cholesterol.

To make things worse NOBODY ever told me about any side effects other than liver damage. The muscle pain which is the number one side effect is indicative of a condition that might destroy heart muscle tissue and CAUSE A HEART ATTACK but no doctor ever told me to watch for it.

I had a conversation with my Doctor and told him that I did not wish to be treated with statins and would switch to Red Yeast Rice and Flax Seed Oil as tested by the MAYO clinic and UCLA.

After more research I've decided to stop that treatment as well and let my cholesterol float.

This is what I decided to do and I do not recommend anyone else do the same based on my experience. Google is your friend, do your own research and make your own decision.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. just one thing
Red yeast rice works by the same pathways as the statin drugs, and thus have many of the same benefits and risks.
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Exactly, which is why I've decided to stop using them as well.
There are studies from Asia that indicate that the most serious side effects from RYR are digestive and even at 10X the dosage the MAYO recommends there is no organ damage.

But if lowering cholesterol isn't helpful for me, why choke down those tablets?
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. flavonoids and arteries
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18199750?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Epidemiological studies suggest that the consumption of flavonoid-rich diets decreases the risk of cardiovascular diseases. However, the target sites of flavonoids underlying the protective mechanism in vivo are not known.

.................................

These results suggest that injured/inflamed arteries with activated macrophages are the potential targets of the metabolites of dietary quercetin. Our data provide a new insight into the bioavailability of dietary flavonoids and the mechanism for the prevention of cardiovascular diseases.


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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. what did your doctor say?
I'm extremely interested, as I'm resisting my physicians.
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. I was pleasantly surprised. He was sympathetic with my wishes
Edited on Sat Mar-01-08 12:11 AM by flamin lib
and I think pleased that I was interested in my own health care. He did want to monitor my cholesterol level quarterly although I'm inclined to ignore it which means another conversation. I think most doctors are open to patient's concerns and are willing to take them into consideration when offering treatment.

The hard part for laypeople is finding real information. Most of what we get is second or third generation interpretation of the original data. I got some from the drug maker's own websites, some from non medical sources and some from European studies. Google is your friend.

Again, I emphasize that what I did should have no bearing on any decision you make. What I offer is purely anecdotal unless you find the data yourself.

It's why they "practice" medicine; nobody ever gets it perfect.

edit to add:

I see from your profile that you're feminine. That should be a major factor in your decision making process. Look for gender related results.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
33. Triglycerides
All of this discussion and nothing about triglycerides. My cholesterol is a little high but my triglycerides are ridiculously high. Well somethings got to kill me, there are a lot worse ways to die than a heart attack.

David
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Nay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #33
41. If I may suggest something--triglycerides can become ridiculously
high if you drink much alcohol, or if you drink fruit juice. If you do either of those things, stop, and see how that affects your TG levels.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
34. everyone here needs to read this NYT article about the big fat lie
http://www.diabetes-normalsugars.com/articles/fatlie.shtml

Here's just a part of it, written several years ago!:

What's forgotten in the current controversy is that the low-fat dogma itself is only about 25 years old. Until the late 70's, the accepted wisdom was that fat and protein protected against overeating by making you sated, and that carbohydrates made you fat. In ''The Physiology of Taste,'' for instance, an 1825 discourse considered among the most famous books ever written about food, the French gastronome Jean Anthelme Brillat-Savarin says that he could easily identify the causes of obesity after 30 years of listening to one ''stout party'' after another proclaiming the joys of bread, rice and (from a ''particularly stout party'') potatoes. Brillat-Savarin described the roots of obesity as a natural predisposition conjuncted with the ''floury and feculent substances which man makes the prime ingredients of his daily nourishment.'' He added that the effects of this fecula -- i.e., ''potatoes, grain or any kind of flour'' -- were seen sooner when sugar was added to the diet.

This is what my mother taught me 40 years ago, backed up by the vague observation that Italians tended toward corpulence because they ate so much pasta. This observation was actually documented by Ancel Keys, a University of Minnesota physician who noted that fats ''have good staying power,'' by which he meant they are slow to be digested and so lead to satiation, and that Italians were among the heaviest populations he had studied. According to Keys, the Neapolitans, for instance, ate only a little lean meat once or twice a week, but ate bread and pasta every day for lunch and dinner. ''There was no evidence of nutritional deficiency,'' he wrote, ''but the working-class women were fat.''

By the 70's, you could still find articles in the journals describing high rates of obesity in Africa and the Caribbean where diets contained almost exclusively carbohydrates. The common thinking, wrote a former director of the Nutrition Division of the United Nations, was that the ideal diet, one that prevented obesity, snacking and excessive sugar consumption, was a diet ''with plenty of eggs, beef, mutton, chicken, butter and well-cooked vegetables.'' This was the identical prescription Brillat-Savarin put forth in 1825.

It was Ancel Keys, paradoxically, who introduced the low-fat-is-good-health dogma in the 50's with his theory that dietary fat raises cholesterol levels and gives you heart disease. Over the next two decades, however, the scientific evidence supporting this theory remained stubbornly ambiguous. The case was eventually settled not by new science but by politics. It began in January 1977, when a Senate committee led by George McGovern published its ''Dietary Goals for the United States,'' advising that Americans significantly curb their fat intake to abate an epidemic of ''killer diseases'' supposedly sweeping the country. It peaked in late 1984, when the National Institutes of Health officially recommended that all Americans over the age of 2 eat less fat. By that time, fat had become ''this greasy killer'' in the memorable words of the Center for Science in the Public Interest, and the model American breakfast of eggs and bacon was well on its way to becoming a bowl of Special K with low-fat milk, a glass of orange juice and toast, hold the butter -- a dubious feast of refined carbohydrates.

In the intervening years, the N.I.H. spent several hundred million dollars trying to demonstrate a connection between eating fat and getting heart disease and, despite what we might think, it failed. Five major studies revealed no such link. A sixth, however, costing well over $100 million alone, concluded that reducing cholesterol by drug therapy could prevent heart disease. The N.I.H. administrators then made a leap of faith. Basil Rifkind, who oversaw the relevant trials for the N.I.H., described their logic this way: they had failed to demonstrate at great expense that eating less fat had any health benefits. But if a cholesterol-lowering drug could prevent heart attacks, then a low-fat, cholesterol-lowering diet should do the same. ''It's an imperfect world,'' Rifkind told me. ''The data that would be definitive is ungettable, so you do your best with what is available.''

Some of the best scientists disagreed with this low-fat logic, suggesting that good science was incompatible with such leaps of faith, but they were effectively ignored. Pete Ahrens, whose Rockefeller University laboratory had done the seminal research on cholesterol metabolism, testified to McGovern's committee that everyone responds differently to low-fat diets. It was not a scientific matter who might benefit and who might be harmed, he said, but ''a betting matter.'' Phil Handler, then president of the National Academy of Sciences, testified in Congress to the same effect in 1980. ''What right,'' Handler asked, ''has the federal government to propose that the American people conduct a vast nutritional experiment, with themselves as subjects, on the strength of so very little evidence that it will do them any good?''

Nonetheless, once the N.I.H. signed off on the low-fat doctrine, societal forces took over. The food industry quickly began producing thousands of reduced-fat food products to meet the new recommendations. Fat was removed from foods like cookies, chips and yogurt. The problem was, it had to be replaced with something as tasty and pleasurable to the palate, which meant some form of sugar, often high-fructose corn syrup. Meanwhile, an entire industry emerged to create fat substitutes, of which Procter & Gamble's olestra was first. And because these reduced-fat meats, cheeses, snacks and cookies had to compete with a few hundred thousand other food products marketed in America, the industry dedicated considerable advertising effort to reinforcing the less-fat-is-good-health message. Helping the cause was what Walter Willett calls the ''huge forces'' of dietitians, health organizations, consumer groups, health reporters and even cookbook writers, all well-intended missionaries of healthful eating.

Few experts now deny that the low-fat message is radically oversimplified. If nothing else, it effectively ignores the fact that unsaturated fats, like olive oil, are relatively good for you: they tend to elevate your good cholesterol, high-density lipoprotein (H.D.L.), and lower your bad cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein (L.D.L.), at least in comparison to the effect of carbohydrates. While higher L.D.L. raises your heart-disease risk, higher H.D.L. reduces it.

What this means is that even saturated fats -- a k a, the bad fats -- are not nearly as deleterious as you would think. True, they will elevate your bad cholesterol, but they will also elevate your good cholesterol. In other words, it's a virtual wash. As Willett explained to me, you will gain little to no health benefit by giving up milk, butter and cheese and eating bagels instead.

But it gets even weirder than that. Foods considered more or less deadly under the low-fat dogma turn out to be comparatively benign if you actually look at their fat content. More than two-thirds of the fat in a porterhouse steak, for instance, will definitively improve your cholesterol profile (at least in comparison with the baked potato next to it); it's true that the remainder will raise your L.D.L., the bad stuff, but it will also boost your H.D.L. The same is true for lard. If you work out the numbers, you come to the surreal conclusion that you can eat lard straight from the can and conceivably reduce your risk of heart disease.

The crucial example of how the low-fat recommendations were oversimplified is shown by the impact -- potentially lethal, in fact -- of low-fat diets on triglycerides, which are the component molecules of fat. By the late 60's, researchers had shown that high triglyceride levels were at least as common in heart-disease patients as high L.D.L. cholesterol, and that eating a low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet would, for many people, raise their triglyceride levels, lower their H.D.L. levels and accentuate what Gerry Reaven, an endocrinologist at Stanford University, called Syndrome X. This is a cluster of conditions that can lead to heart disease and Type 2 diabetes.

It took Reaven a decade to convince his peers that Syndrome X was a legitimate health concern, in part because to accept its reality is to accept that low-fat diets will increase the risk of heart disease in a third of the population. ''Sometimes we wish it would go away because nobody knows how to deal with it,'' said Robert Silverman, an N.I.H. researcher, at a 1987 N.I.H. conference. ''High protein levels can be bad for the kidneys. High fat is bad for your heart. Now Reaven is saying not to eat high carbohydrates. We have to eat something.''

Surely, everyone involved in drafting the various dietary guidelines wanted Americans simply to eat less junk food, however you define it, and eat more the way they do in Berkeley, Calif. But we didn't go along. Instead we ate more starches and refined carbohydrates, because calorie for calorie, these are the cheapest nutrients for the food industry to produce, and they can be sold at the highest profit. It's also what we like to eat. Rare is the person under the age of 50 who doesn't prefer a cookie or heavily sweetened yogurt to a head of broccoli.

''All reformers would do well to be conscious of the law of unintended consequences,'' says Alan Stone, who was staff director for McGovern's Senate committee. Stone told me he had an inkling about how the food industry would respond to the new dietary goals back when the hearings were first held. An economist pulled him aside, he said, and gave him a lesson on market disincentives to healthy eating: ''He said if you create a new market with a brand-new manufactured food, give it a brand-new fancy name, put a big advertising budget behind it, you can have a market all to yourself and force your competitors to catch up. You can't do that with fruits and vegetables. It's harder to differentiate an apple from an apple.''

Nutrition researchers also played a role by trying to feed science into the idea that carbohydrates are the ideal nutrient. It had been known, for almost a century, and considered mostly irrelevant to the etiology of obesity, that fat has nine calories per gram compared with four for carbohydrates and protein. Now it became the fail-safe position of the low-fat recommendations: reduce the densest source of calories in the diet and you will lose weight. Then in 1982, J.P. Flatt, a University of Massachusetts biochemist, published his research demonstrating that, in any normal diet, it is extremely rare for the human body to convert carbohydrates into body fat. This was then misinterpreted by the media and quite a few scientists to mean that eating carbohydrates, even to excess, could not make you fat -- which is not the case, Flatt says. But the misinterpretation developed a vigorous life of its own because it resonated with the notion that fat makes you fat and carbohydrates are harmless.

As a result, the major trends in American diets since the late 70's, according to the U.S.D.A. agricultural economist Judith Putnam, have been a decrease in the percentage of fat calories and a ''greatly increased consumption of carbohydrates.'' To be precise, annual grain consumption has increased almost 60 pounds per person, and caloric sweeteners (primarily high-fructose corn syrup) by 30 pounds. At the same time, we suddenly began consuming more total calories: now up to 400 more each day since the government started recommending low-fat diets.

If these trends are correct, then the obesity epidemic can certainly be explained by Americans' eating more calories than ever -- excess calories, after all, are what causes us to gain weight -- and, specifically, more carbohydrates. The question is why?

The answer provided by Endocrinology 101 is that we are simply hungrier than we were in the 70's, and the reason is physiological more than psychological. In this case, the salient factor -- ignored in the pursuit of fat and its effect on cholesterol -- is how carbohydrates affect blood sugar and insulin. In fact, these were obvious culprits all along, which is why Atkins and the low-carb-diet doctors pounced on them early.

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liberal4truth Donating Member (309 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 03:07 AM
Response to Original message
39. NASA Doc Duane Graveline, MD: Statin Drug Side-Effects at: http://www.spacedoc.net/
Edited on Sat Mar-01-08 03:14 AM by liberal4truth
Statin Drugs, Side Effects and The Misguided War on Cholesterol:

In his search of the medical and scientific literature for an explanation for his own statin associated transient global amnesia, Duane Graveline MD, former astronaut and retired family doctor, reveals to his readers the critical importance of cholesterol for proper brain function and memory and the reasons for the damage statin drugs can do to our muscles, nerves and heart and even our personalities.

The unacceptable legacy of statin drug use at today’s high doses is a trail of chronic aches and pains, numbness, weakness, confusion, fatigue, shortness of breath and even heart failure in hordes of unsuspecting victims. Only by knowing this information can you make an informed decision about your health care.

More at: http://www.spacedoc.net/
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