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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:08 PM
Original message
Stun gun death hypothesis.
Just thought of this when discussing stun guns in another post. Let me know what you think, especially if you have a medical background.

One factor that may not have been considered is metabolic acidosis. Let's say a suspect who has used illegal drugs runs away from the police for a mile, then fights with a police dog. Both of which would create large amounts of lactic acid in someone who hadn't trained for such an event. The taser would then cause skeletal muscle contraction on a huge scale this contraction would surely stimulate the muscle to contract at an anaerobic rate and release that much more lactic acid into the body which might cause metabolic acidosis, which can and will cause ventricular fibrillation and other types of cardiac arrest.

Before you hammer me too bad I thought about this for about 30 seconds.

David
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. I have no way to answer your question authoritatively but I like it.
  So I thought I'd kick it in hopes that someone who can, will.

PB
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Thanks
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. Interesting point. Tasers have never been tested on unhealthy subjects, only healthy subjects that
sign the release at http://www.taser.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Controlled%20Documents/Warnings/LG-FORM-VOLUNTER-001%20REV%20B%20Volunteer%20Exposure%20Release.pdf
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NC_Nurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. My thought has always been that repeated tasering probably interferes with
the heart's electrical impulses. Just like a defibrillator would possibly start the heart, a taser could probably stop it.
It seems REALLY stupid to think that most criminals would be healthy too. I'm sure a great majority drink or take drugs
a lot. Even those who don't may not be in decent shape for many reasons. Wouldn't that be a no-brainer? :o
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. But defibrillators actually stop the heart also.
Hopefully to allow the normal pacemakers to take over. Although the combination of multiple shocks in addition to acidosis would make it less likely for those pacemakers to be able to take back over. I agree on the health issues of criminals. I haven't known many healthy ones that spent a lot of time at the gym. Kind of an odd thought isn't it.

David
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. I think it's not so much lactic acid but CO2 acid/base imbalance.
Breathing fast, having CO2/bicarb out of balance will lead to acidosis, making muscles be more reactive, more apt to contract/cramp.

That is a thought, will think about it overnight.

Am a health care provider, both western and complimentary medicine.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Hypoventilation causes acidosis, in the absence of oxygen the cells resort to anaerobic metabolism.
Hyperventilation would cause alkalosis I believe. Lactic acid can build up extremely quickly when the muscle are used in an anaerobic state. I'm just thinking in combination with the presence of a stimulant in the blood and quite possibly cardiac ischemia. V-Fib would be the likely result. I could be wrong about the acidosis vs. alkalosis, I don't have any books here, they are all at the office, so I'm just going off memory. I appreciate the input though.

david
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. buildup of co2, not bicarb, throwing into acidosis, yes. I was wrong about hyper.
I was wrong about hyperventilating and that would be opposite. I was thinking running fast, not breathing enough, leading to hypo-oxygenation, co2 buildup, etc. Anaerobic resp, etc. That is an interesting idea, will think some more.
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Edward-M Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. my theory
is that low weight people die the most from stun guns, more watts per pound!
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Lots of chronic drug user especially of meth are skinny.
The deaths that I have seen attributed to stun guns have been a wide variety of suspects in size and weight range. It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation among a larger group of suspects.

David
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
11. can you verify the cause and effect relationship
between metabolic acidosis and ventricular fibrillation?
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Hard to say.
Metabolic acidosis is usually the result of apnea (stopping breathing) when the body gets hypoxic (low on oxygen) then the cells begin to function anaerobically which is inefficient and results in waste products of lactic acid. This is what makes your muscle sore when you work out really hard. So the v fib in most cases is caused from hypoxia as opposed to acidosis. Acidosis though does make it more difficult to revive patients in cardiac arrest. So I'm not proposing that the acidosis causes the cardiac arrest, I'm saying that the acidosis in combination with large doses of stimulants and electricity in the right spot at the wrong time might be a cause in some of the deaths. Also these factors would make it more difficult to revive these patients. So the acidosis question itself is often the question of the chicken or the egg, was the person acidotic then had a cardiac arrest or did the person have a cardiac arrest then became acidotic because of the cardiac arrest. I'm sorry if I didn't clearly establish this in the start.

David
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I googled "causes of ventricular fibrillation"
I do not vouch for the accuracy of these web sites.

The third source was the only one with a mention of acidosis.

So, who knows? Maybe?

The most common cause of ventricular fibrillation is inadequate blood flow to the heart muscle due to coronary artery disease, as occurs during a heart attack. Other causes include the following:

Shock (very low blood pressure—see Shock), which can result from coronary artery disease and other disorders
Electrical shock
Drowning
Very low levels of potassium in the blood (hypokalemia)
Drugs that affect electrical currents in the heart (such as sodium or potassium channel blockers

http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec03/ch027/ch027h.html


TopCauses of Ventricular fibrillation (Diseases Database):The follow list shows some of the possible medical causes of Ventricular fibrillation that are listed by the Diseases Database:
Pulmonary embolism
Myocardial infarction
Electric shock
Brugada syndrome
Torsade de pointes
Hypothermia
Unstable angina
http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/v/ventricular_fibrillation/causes.htm


Causes

Cardiac, structural heart disease

Myocardial ischemia or infarction due to coronary artery disease: Coronary atherosclerosis and its consequences are responsible for approximately 80% of sudden cardiac deaths in the United States.
Cardiomyopathy: Dilated and hypertrophic cardiomyopathies are the second most important cardiac causes of sudden death. The degree of functional and physiologic left ventricular impairment is correlated with the risk of sudden death.

Dilated
Hypertrophic
Arrhythmogenic right ventricular cardiomyopathy or dysplasia
Aortic stenosis
Aortic dissection
Pericardial tamponade
Congenital heart disease
Myocarditis
Cardiac, no structural heart disease

Catecholaminergic polymorphic ventricular tachycardia and right ventricular outflow tract tachycardia
Mechanical (commotio cordis) or electrical accidents
Preexcitation (including Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome)
Heart block
Drug-induced QT prolongation with torsades de pointes
Channelopathies

Long QT syndrome
Short QT syndrome
Brugada syndrome
Noncardiac respiratory

Bronchospasm
Aspiration
Sleep apnea
Primary pulmonary hypertension
Pulmonary embolism
Tension pneumothorax
Metabolic or toxic

Electrolyte disturbances and acidosis
Medications or drug ingestion
Environmental poisoning
Sepsis
Neurologic

Seizure
Cerebrovascular accident - Intracranial hemorrhage or ischemic stroke
Drowning
http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic633.htm
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Not so much a cause, more a contributing factor.
I suspect that the dramatic loss of blood pressure as shown in some of the studies is the initial cause of cardiac arrest.

David
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-05-08 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
14. Fascinating theory.
Sounds quite plausible to me, but I am no physiologist.
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