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RFKJrNews Donating Member (760 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 04:09 PM
Original message
RFK Jr.'s Autism Crusade Continues
The April/May issue of Spectrum Magazine has a featured interview with RFK Jr. which we hope you will take time to read an excerpt from below.

Despite being frozen out and even ridiculed by the mainstream media for his views on the link between vaccines and autism (is that why his recent World Autism Day appearance on “Larry King Live” was abruptly canceled at the last minute?), Kennedy continues his crusade to inform the public on this important health crisis.

RFK JR: HIS CRUSADE CONTINUES
By Sarah Bridges, Ph.D. / Photos by Robert Milazzo

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s watershed moment occurred in 2006 when he visited the New York Times headquarters to discuss an editorial piece he submitted on the link between vaccines and neurological disorders in children. Ushered into a small room for what was set to be a private meeting with an editor, he instead found the space crammed with people, overflowing onto the arms of old leather chairs, with expressions ranging from boredom to disdain.
“I expected a discussion with the editor of the Times, but when I went in to meet, they had assembled a group of science editors that were so hostile and antagonistic, it was like talking to a brick wall,” Kennedy remembered. “They were absolutely determined that there would be no public discussion in their paper about mercury and neurological disorders.” His sentences were cut short by rapid retorts, as if the room was laced with invisible mines. Despite Kennedy’s information, and the phonebook-sized stack of articles that Dr. Boyd Haley had perched on his lap ready to share, the editors quickly shut down any discussion of thimerosal’s dangers; one person near the door sighed and rolled his eyes. The meeting progressed for 30 minutes, Kennedy offering DNA, animal, genetic, epidemiological and biology studies, and being met repeatedly with the statement, “The CDC says the vaccines are safe.”

Case closed.

Kennedy doesn’t sit still... >>>>

...story continues at: http://rfkin2008.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/kennedys-autism-crusade-continues/
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. Imus has been fighting this for a lot longer.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Ah yes and Mr. "Nappy headed hos" has what science degree?
Stupid is as stupid does. I don't get my science from racist idiots.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
25. do you just spread anger around..
...where ever you go? Must become stale after a while.
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NoodleBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
89. how many times does it take to be told by qualified scientists that your opinion is unscientific
before parroting that bad science becomes 'stale?'

And to back up turtlensue's point, it ABSOLUTELY MATTERS who the messenger is, whether it be Don Imus or RFK Jr or Al Gore or someone with a credible science education who has been accepted by the scientific community
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. Kennedy was smacked down with facts so severely last time,
I'm honestly surprised he's still trying.
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Jane Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. The Government's facts?
The doggy ophthalmologist who examines my dogs' eyes for C.E.R.F. has an autistic daughter.

She was fine until she got four vaccinations in one day as a toddler.

She says this is the biggest cover-up in medicine in her experience.

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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Just regular, ordinary facts.
No :tinfoilhat: necessary. At least among people who realize that correlation doesn't mean causation.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Got autism the next day did she?
Or five years later as I hear the people say. Autism is GENETIC. And it starts to appear about the same age most kids get shots.
Read some science won't you. A doggy opthomologist is not a expert in this field. NIH MD's and PhD's are and they have shown OVER AND OVER again that there is NO link. BTW, I worked with one of the WORLD'S premier vaccine/infectious disease specialists. And I have published data on vaccine research. I think that gives me more cred than any doggie doctor or IDIOTIC politician.
So its not okay for RW politicians to make science decisions but because he has the magic word "Kennedy" he's an expert.
Good lord, I guess all that inbreeding has finally turned Kennedy brains to mush.
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Jane Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Why are you so angry at me?
I just reported what the Board Certified Veterinary Ophthalmologist said to me about her experience with her own child - and her opinion about what the government says about it mercury and autism.

I was hardly in a position to argue with her about her observations about her own child.

If I am not supposed to participate in certain discussions at DU, I would like to know about it now.

And if I don't believe government numbers, you can thank BushCo for that.

But there's no reason to deride me - or the veterinary ophthalmologist because our goverment frequently uses statistics to protect its big business buddies.
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Okay...
I just reported what the Board Certified Veterinary Ophthalmologist said to me about her experience with her own child - and her opinion about what the government says about it mercury and autism.

Firstly, being a board certified veterinary opthalmologist has nothing to do with vaccines and autism. Secondly, her experience is anecdotal which makes for bad evidence. Also, even though similiar things have been reported by other parents, it's an example of the post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this, therefore because of this) fallacy. It does not follow from a temporal connection between two events that there is likewise a causal connection between them.

And if I don't believe government numbers, you can thank BushCo for that.

Well, I'm assuming you don't mean Denmark when you say "government". That's a summary of just one study done on the issue - there are several others.
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Jane Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I had no idea that DU was a scientific symposium
Edited on Tue May-13-08 10:03 PM by janeaustin
and that I needed a graduate degree to participate.

I mentioned the woman's credentials so the reader would understand she wasn't some ignorant slattern I overheard at a bus stop.

I have no idea why your reaction sounds so hostile, but in my humble, and not at all scientific, opinion you don't sound very dispassionate.

I hope you will forgive me for wasting your time and I will try to remember my place in the future.
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I didn't intend to be hostile - merely to explain.
You're free to participate regardless of your education or your beliefs, but bear in mind that there are going to be people who disagree with you and that those people might post arguments to explain why they either disagree with you or find your arguments to not be persuasive.

I didn't say anything about you in my response, nor do I think I was being hostile. It seems to me that you are mistaking a refutation as a personal attack.
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Tumbulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Please remember to come back here
I am very tired of the rude posts in this forum. And am grateful that you so politely called them on it.

I was talking with a friend who grew up in a family of scientists and she reminded me that it is accepted to be rude and even admired to be outrageously rude within academia. I brought this up to her as I find it so upsetting how many insults these guys throw around here. And they challenge any direct observation as the dreaded "anecdotal evidence!"

So, please come back and share your experiences. And your vet's as well.



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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. So I should smile and be nice
When people who know nothing except whats on TV tell me I'm a child poisoner? And a shill?
I'm very tired of the attitudes here and if I'm rude, well its in response to the incredibly rude ignorance on this board.
Funny how I never used to be a rude person until I started posting HERE.
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Jane Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #15
44. Thank you for your encouraging post.
I was unpleasantly surprised by the response to my comment.

Thanks again.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Maybe I'm hostile
because I'm tired of people that believe this stuff calling me and mine, unethical shills, child poisoners, nazi's, ignorant, fundamentalists, and just foolish. All things said to me HERE. Not very progressive, no? And tends to make one hostile to have ones profession attacked by people everyday.
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Jane Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
42. And yet I didn't say any of those things to you,
Edited on Wed May-14-08 06:55 PM by janeaustin
but was ordered by you to go "Read some science won't you". (sic)

I don't know your profession, but unless you are a right-wing lobbyist, I don't believe I have have ever attacked it, here or anywhere else.

Nor did I question any of your conclusions about autism or anything else.

I merely reported what a well-educated mother told me about her own child.

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Tumbulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #16
48. did janeaustin say any of these things to you?
I did not read that.

I find your so many of your posts interesting and informative and I appreciate reading things that you have to say from your vantage point on the inside of cutting edge research. Thank you for taking so much time to bring us this insight into your interesting field of science.

We all bring different perspectives to these boards. I just had to pull two lambs from ewes this past week. They were stuck. I had no idea how strong one has to be to do this and I have been talking to all my vet friends about it since. They tell me their stories. No one turns around and calls me names after I share some of my thoughts with them. Why is OK to do that here?

Let us share our lives and ideas and not call each other names, please.

And I am sorry that people have called you those terrible things. You seem to be a very hard working person trying to make the world a better place. Thank you for your work.

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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #48
51. Um. I think she may be projecting a bit.
But in any case, it is best to respond to the post at hand, without regard to some imagined or real slight suffered in some past post by a different person. I mean, this is how things can get waaaaaaaay out of hand.

Person A has voiced concerns about vaccines and is actually a very rude poster to Person C (haven't noticed this but let's suppose it is true).

Person B voices concern about vaccines but is polite. Person C jumps all over Person B because of Person A in the past.

Does this make sense? Hardly. Typical behaviour here? Yes, well sans the Person A who is probably mythical. There has been a very occasional poster here that calls pharmaceutical companies "shills." I always cringe when I see that, but it doesn't excuse poor manners to an entirely different person.
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. Person A is hardly mythical.
Edited on Thu May-15-08 01:11 PM by varkam
As a result of presenting the evidence against a connection between autism and vaccination I have been called:

  • A Bush sycophant
  • A baby killer
  • A scientific fundamentalist
  • A paid shill


And that's just been in the last couple of months! Why, even in this thread there's at least one post along those lines.

All that being said, tensions tend to run high in this debate and the context of an online message board doesn't lend itself to respectful discussion in the same way that in-person discussions do.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. Please continue posting in this forum.
Rudeness is frequently a refuge for the ignorant. By making discussion unpleasant, they try to shut it down. Don't let them. A former director of the NIH largely agrees with the views of both Kennedy and your doggy opthamologist. This former director states (with references) that public health officials refuse to study the issue of the relationship between vaccines and autism because they fear it will spread fear among the public.

Until the problem is actually studied, no one knows what the answer is.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. I agree. There are some very rude posts from anti-vaxers.
Insinuating that pro-evidence posters are shills of big pharma or swallow everything the government tells them is one example.

Bottom line is, it's absolutely childish to say that just ONE side is "rude" in this debate.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. I am pro evidence
So pro evidence that I would like the appropriate studies done on subsets of autism. If you don't want these studies done, I would consider you anti evidence.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=222x35677

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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Sure you are. n/t
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. Jim, the issue *has* been studied.
Edited on Wed May-14-08 04:13 PM by varkam
IIRC, there are a good 14 different studies on the topic. That's not to say that research should not continue, but it's rather disingenuous to say that no one has looked at it.

ETA And research is continuing on the subject as well.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. I should have qualified that with certain types of studies.
The 2004 report from the Institute of Medicine acknowledges that vaccines may have an adverse effect on certain subgroups. Those subgroups could probably be identified by studies designed to identify them. However the IOM doesn't want to perform or fund those studies. They believe these studies will cause a general fear of vaccines. This issue was noted in the thread about Dr Bernadine Healy, a former director at NIH, who thinks these studies should be done.
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. They say that is a theoretical possibility with no evidence to support it.
Edited on Wed May-14-08 05:49 PM by varkam
They also say that research funds should be directed towards more productive channels, such as identifying better treatments or further exploring etiology. In addition, they do say (but again, amongst other things), that that an unsubstantiated health scare could lower vaccination rates and cause an outbreak of disease - which is true.

The way I read the report, it seems that they were not optimistic that the mercury / autism hypothesis, even in the incredible shrinking causation form of specific sub-groups, is going to yield anything worthwhile.

Essentially, I think some people are crying conspiracy when it's not really justified.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 05:38 AM
Response to Reply #41
49. That's not exactly what they say.
Edited on Thu May-15-08 05:51 AM by Jim__

...

Rodent models suggest that reactions to some infectious agents (e.g., bornavirus and group A streptococcus) lead to somewhat specific neuronal cell death and evidence of autoimmune reactions in the developing and adult brains of rodents. The animals also exhibit abnormal behaviors. These immunological and behavioral findings are similar to those seen in some humans after infection: the behavior in children with PANDAS or in the animal models resembles the behavior constellations in children with autism. A similar set of comparisons can be made with mercury exposures (Bernard et al., 2001), although autism has never been documented as a consequence of high-dose mercury exposure, including acrodynia. While analogies are useful for hypothesis generation, they do not substitute for direct evidence.

Other evidence offered for the vaccine-autism hypothesis includes analogies between rodent behavior and human behavior as well as clinical observations of metabolic or immunologic differences between individuals with autism and normal subjects or subjects with other conditions. In the clinical studies, it is not clear to what extent the abnormalities are antecedents or are comorbid disease expressions, rather than causal factors. That is, it is possible that some people with autism, perhaps even a subgroup that could be identified at some time in the future by genetic markers, also have abnormal immune reactions and abnormal mercury metabolism but that vaccination does not cause these abnormalities, nor do they cause autism.

The committee notes several factors that limit acceptance at this time of the hypothesis that vaccines cause autism. The evidence offered for the hypothesis includes data from in vitro experimental systems, analogies between rodent behavior, and human behavior and clinical observations that are at least as well explained as being comorbid disease expressions than as causal factors. That is, it is possible that some people with autism, perhaps even a subgroup that could eventually be identified by genetic markers, have abnormal immune reactions and abnormal mercury metabolism, but that vaccination of these individuals does not cause these abnormalities or autism itself. However, the experiments showing effects of thimerosal on biochemical pathways in cell culture systems and showing abnormalities in the immune system or metal metabolism in people with autism are provocative; the autism research community should consider the appropriate composition of the autism research portfolio with some of these new findings in mind. However, these experiments do not provide evidence of a relationship between vaccines or thimerosal and autism.

In the absence of experimental or human evidence that vaccination (either the MMR vaccine or the preservative thimerosal) affects metabolic, developmental, immune, or other physiological or molecular mechanisms that are causally related to the development of autism, the committee concludes that the hypotheses generated to date are theoretical only.


Dr Healy says that the experimental evidence is easy to obtain, especially given the large number of children who developed autisitic symptoms after getting vaccinated. i.e. the theory is relatively easy to test. IOM then goes on to say they will not fund these tests which is where Dr Healy takes issue with them.

And, of course, what you label the incredible shrinking causation form is precisely the causation form that government medical personnel cited in conceding that vaccine did aggravate an existing condition in the Hannah Polling case. IOW, the government has already recognized vaccination as an aggravating factor. So, the actual remaining question is, can we identify the subgroups.

I cannot see any argument that can be made against identifying these subgroups. This would work to protect these groups, and to alleviate the concern for children not in these subgroups. For parents who fear vaccinating their children, the risk currently appears to be random. That random risk may be relatively easy to eliminate; eliminating much of the fear that some parents currently associate with vaccinations.
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moc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #49
52. Experimental evidence would be easy to obtain?
Is that what you said or what she said? You are aware, I'm sure, that experimental evidence would require some randomization and strict control over exposure. For example, subgroups of children defined by particular characteristics could be randomized to receive vaccinations and rates of autism compared between groups. Surely, that's not what you're suggesting.

The data available to date is observational, not experimental. It would be conceivably possible to identify subgroups of children and do comparisons based on existing data sets. How would you define those subgroups of children? What would be your source of data? I would venture to guess it would be very difficult to do in the U.S. because of our piss poor data collection systems. This is why the Denmark study is so powerful from a population study perspective.

If such subgroup studies are so vital, why aren't they being done? Why hasn't an interested scientist developed a well-crafted proposal for submission to the likes of NIH, CDC, or other international sources of research funding? If it's so easy, why isn't it being done?
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. That is a paraphrase of what Dr Healy said.
Edited on Thu May-15-08 09:58 AM by Jim__
She says it on the video, so I can't cut and paste her exact words. She says we have the opportunity, the tools, and the group of people required to perform these tests. She also claims that the main reason IOM does not want to perform or fund these tests is that they believe this will cause a more general fear of vaccines. Listening to her speak, she doesn't seem to think there is any technical reason these tests can't be run.

One of Dr Healy's main issues seems to be a belief that public health officials do not want these tests run.
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moc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Sorry, but I call bullshit on Dr. Healy's comments (or on your misinterpretation of what she said).
Look, I'm a public health professor (doctorate in maternal and child health from Hopkins), so I have more than a modicum of training in these issues. I sit on federal-level grant review committees, and I've reviewed plenty of epi study proposals testing links between a host of environmental risk factors and different health outcomes. There's no reason on earth why an interested scientist who truly believes in the importance of such a subgroup analysis that you and Dr. Healy refer to couldn't submit a proposal, get a good score and get funded. Anyone who thinks otherwise has no understanding of how the peer-reviewed scientific process works. If Dr. Healy truly intended to convey what you think she's conveying, then she's being disengenuous because she darn well knows how the NIH review process works.

Be clear - the IOM doesn't fund research so implying they don't want to fund research is just silly. For what it's worth, I've sat on a federal review committee multiple times with the chair of that IOM committee (McCormick of Harvard), and we've had extensive discussions of her experience going up against the anti-vaxers. Never *once* did she suggest that generating fear re: vaccines had ANYTHING to do with their recommendations. The fact of the matter is that the science just isn't there. I have read the original research, and I concur completely with the IOM report. There is no there there.

Now, if your contention is that the empirical base is incomplete, what do you suggest? What *specific* subgroup of children should be studied? How? From where would the data come? If there is no technical barrier to such an analysis and there's a scientist who thinks it's worth pursuing, why hasn't s/he written a proposal and sought funding? And please, don't give me any conspiracy tin hat theories in response.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. You can listen to Dr Healy's comments yourself.
Edited on Thu May-15-08 01:55 PM by Jim__
Here. You can tell me that I have some of the details wrong. What I don't have wrong is that Dr Healy says these studies can and should be done. She also says that IOM and certain public health official don't want these done because they believe that this will lead to an increased fear of vaccines. An excerpt from her interview is that they have "a completely expressed concern that they don't want to pursue a hypothesis because that hypothesis can be damaging to the public health community as a whole ..." (that may be off by a word or 2; but that's what she said).

Listen to what Dr Healy says. Then, you can challenge her to a debate on the issue. She's gone public with her comments. She's backing up what she says. You can publicly call bullshit on her and publicly challenge what she has to say.

Anyone here can click on the link and listen to what Dr Healy has to say and judge for yourself. She is speaking in plain English that anyone can understand. She is speaking very clearly. I do not have it wrong.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. Never *once* did she suggest that generating fear re: vaccines had ANYTHING to do with their
recommendations.

Well, of course, I've never suggested that she said this to you in any discussion.

Dr Healy said the IOM said this in its 2004 report. I didn't read the entire report, but, I certainly see strong support for her claim from this part of the report:

While the committee strongly supports targeted research that focuses on better understanding the disease of autism, from a public health perspective the committee does not consider a significant investment in studies of the theoretical vaccine-autism connection to be useful at this time. The nature of the debate about vaccine safety now includes the theory by some that genetic susceptibility makes vaccinations risky for some people, which calls into question the appropriateness of a public health, or universal, vaccination strategy. However, the benefits of vaccination are proven and the hypothesis of susceptible populations is presently speculative. Using an unsubstantiated hypothesis to question the safety of vaccination and the ethical behavior of those governmental agencies and scientists who advocate for vaccination could lead to widespread rejection of vaccines and inevitable increases in incidences of serious infectious diseases like measles, whooping cough, and Hib bacterial meningitis.
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moc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. Read my post below.
Unsubstantiated speculation cannot be used to guide public health policy. You want to affect policy? Do the research and provide the data.
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. Well...
As far as such evidence being "easy" to produce, I think moc has provided you with a sufficient answer to that.

And, of course, what you label the incredible shrinking causation form is precisely the causation form that government medical personnel cited in conceding that vaccine did aggravate an existing condition in the Hannah Polling case. IOW, the government has already recognized vaccination as an aggravating factor. So, the actual remaining question is, can we identify the subgroups.

Of course, the underlying aggravating factor could of been anything AFAIK. In her case, it appears to of been her vaccinations. In other words, it doesn't appear that there was anything particularly special about the vaccines, per se.

Also note that government medical personnel didn't rule that vaccines aggravated Polling's mitochondrial disorder - a judge did that. Also note that the standard of evidence in civil courts differs considerably from a scientific standard.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. Dr Healy is explicit about having the tools to produce this evidence.
Edited on Thu May-15-08 02:19 PM by Jim__
She is also explicit that public health officials don't want it produced because they believe it will raise fears concerning vaccines. Dr Healy states this in plain English. You can listen to it for yourself.

As for Hannah Polling, medical personnel at DVIC concluded that the vaccinations significantly aggravated an underlying mitochondrial disorder. The Secretary of Health and Human Services conceded the case. And, yes, this was based on statutory criteria. Dr Healy claims that we likely have the tools to make a scientific determination of this issue. She also claims that public health officials don't want this determination made. Listen for yourself.
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. But she bases her opinion on the IOM report...
which, again, didn't really say that they weren't going to investigate it because they were afraid it would spark fears.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Did you listen to what she said?
Edited on Thu May-15-08 03:30 PM by Jim__
Her opinion that we have the tools to resolve this issue is not based on the IOM report. She says we have the opportunity, the tools, and the group to study. She says we have the opportunity and the tools before she ever mentions the IOM Report.

Actually, the report is pretty specific:

While the committee strongly supports targeted research that focuses on better understanding the disease of autism, from a public health perspective the committee does not consider a significant investment in studies of the theoretical vaccine-autism connection to be useful at this time. The nature of the debate about vaccine safety now includes the theory by some that genetic susceptibility makes vaccinations risky for some people, which calls into question the appropriateness of a public health, or universal, vaccination strategy. However, the benefits of vaccination are proven and the hypothesis of susceptible populations is presently speculative. Using an unsubstantiated hypothesis to question the safety of vaccination and the ethical behavior of those governmental agencies and scientists who advocate for vaccination could lead to widespread rejection of vaccines and inevitable increases in incidences of serious infectious diseases like measles, whooping cough, and Hib bacterial meningitis.


I haven't read the whole report; but this is sufficient to support her statements.
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moc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Key phrase is here:
Using an unsubstantiated hypothesis to question the safety of vaccination and the ethical behavior of those governmental agencies and scientists who advocate for vaccination could lead to widespread rejection of vaccines and inevitable increases in incidences of serious infectious diseases.

What that means, in plain English, is that there are no data to support this hypothesis. Without data, it's speculative and can't be used to guide public health policy. What it DOESN'T say is that a methodologically strong proposal to study group-specific risk factors would not be funded. If a scientist can put forth a good case and convince a panel of peer reviewers, the proposal will be scored well and it will be funded. The reason it hasn't been done, I suspect, is that no such proposal has been put forth. If someone in the anti-vax community thinks it should be studied, get a scientist to write and submit the proposal. Until then, any suggestions regarding susceptible subgroups is, by definition, speculative.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #64
69. Dr Healy disagrees with your interpretation ...
Edited on Fri May-16-08 07:39 AM by Jim__
... - or she may be referencing another part of the report. But, if you've watched the video, she clearly states that IOM opposes this research because it believes it will cause an increased fear of vaccines. She said this position is taken in the 2004 Report of the IOM. She also states in the video that she has discussed this with a few colleagues and they agree that this is still the position of IOM. Your argument is with her and her colleagues who agree with her.

Dr Healy has made her statement publicly on national TV. I'm sure she knows that a lot of the medical community disagrees with her. I would love to see the issue debated.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #64
71. What is the motivation of the statement from IOM?
Seriously, what is the intent behind the statement? Why weigh in on this at all? The argument on its face just seems really, really bizarre.

What they are saying is--"we shouldn't even CONSIDER doing such studies because the mere thought that we should test subsets of autism with regard to vaccines is going to put fear into people and cause them not to get their kids vaccinated."

Now, what is right about that statement? I can't think of a single thing correct about that statement. The most obvious thing is that now this very statement is being used by people to try to show that there is a "coverup." That alone would cause more kids to be unvaccinated than considering subgroups of autism in a study on vaccines.

The other thing wrong with it is that if a particular line of inquiry has merit, it should be studied without regard to any sort of fear that they seem to be projecting onto the population. The scientific proof and increased knowledge is just too important.

You know, they blew it. They just totally blew it. To correct that, the statement should be withdrawn, IMHO.
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moc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. It really doesn't matter what IOMs motivation was (although I disagree with your interpretation).
As I mentioned above, IOM doesn't fund research. NIH does. CDC does. NSF does. There are a host of private foundations that do. There are international funding sources.

You didn't address my question. If this is such an important issue, why hasn't someone tried to get such a study funded? If you think that this obscure statement by the IOM is going to hinder some enterprising researcher who has a strong proposal from submitting it and getting it funded, you don't have a very good understanding of how the whole research endeavor works.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. I don't know
But my guess is that the statement by the IOM was intended, among other things, to discourage such a line of inquiry. Maybe it was successful in doing that. Researchers are not prone to pursuing lines of research that important people and groups frown on.
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moc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. I think you significantly overestimate the significance of an obscure statement in a report.
There are thousands of young researchers at academic institutions looking for funding opportunities. As someone who was once in their shoes (no longer so young, lol), I can tell you that the likelihood someone would (1) read that IOM report; and (2) alter their research trajectory as a result is pretty close to nil. Getting a bunch of scientists to agree on something is like herding cats - a scientist who thinks he's got a good hypothesis to test will pursue it and if he can convince a review panel of his peers (10-15 scientists who wouldn't care too much about that obscure IOM statement) he'll get a good score and he'll be funded.

The problem I have with your contention is that it implies that the scientific community is some sort of monolith that is conspiring to not study what might be an important risk factor for autism. That is just not how science happens. My guess is that the reasons for lack of research in this area (i.e., subgroup analysis of children vulnerable to vaccine effects) are much more mundane. First, you've got to identify a good hypothesis. What *specific* subgroups should be studied and what is the rationale for choosing those subgroups? Speculating that, even though the epidemiologic evidence does not support an association between vaccines and autism, there are vulnerable subgroups of children is worthless speculation unless you can identify what those subgroups are. Then, if you want to test a hypothesis that, for example, blue-eyed children are more vulnerable to vaccines, then you have to spell out how you will identify, in an unbiased way, blue-eyed children and non-blue eyed children and assess the relative risk, in an unbiased way, of their exposure to vaccines and their autism status.

I've never heard anyone who makes the "vulnerable subgroups" declaration ever identify *which* subgroups they think might be vulnerable. Also, I'm not sure where you'd get the data - definitely not in the U.S. Countries with universal health care systems have much better ways of identifying large populations of individuals based on risk factors and outcomes. For example, I sit on a review panel for the Canadian equivalent to NIH, and I'm amazed at the kind of data they have access to. Still, even if you identify the subgroup you hypothesize about, you have to figure out how you're going to assess the relative risk of that factor. It will take a very large, population-based sample because the incidence of autism is relatively low.

My guess is that subgroups haven't been tested because no one has made a convincing case that it's worth it. Those judging it not to be worth it are making that judgement on methodological bases, not based on some obscure statement by the IOM.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. going by Dr. Healy's statement
She is in a position to know, and has no known motive to lie. She seems to feel that this was important. I am sure there is room for disagreement on something like this.

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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #77
84. Fortunately
There are a few private foundations that are supporting research-- Although the amounts are small, perhaps they could make a difference in a study of subgroups of autism.

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS136492+04-Mar-2008+PRN20080304

NIXA, Mo., March 4 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- It was announced this week that
The National Autism Association (NAA) will receive $10,000 for the
Burbacher/Charleston study into the effects of mercury exposure in the brain.
The Doug Flutie, Jr. Foundation for Autism, Inc. awarded the grant. Funding
will support the completion of a research study relating to the effects upon
the brain following exposure to mercury.

The mercury study's primary investigator is Dr. Thomas Burbacher, a University
of Washington researcher and long-time investigator into the effects of the
toxin. His earlier research found that Thimerosal, best known for its use as
an ethylmercury-based preservative in infant vaccines and pregnancy shots, is
actually more toxic to the brain than methylmercury.

...........................................

The second-phase study by Dr. Jay Charleston and Dr. Burbacher will look more
in-depth at brain tissue, and the effects mercury may have on this tissue once
it passes the blood-brain barrier. In his first-phase study, Burbacher
concluded:

-- Ethylmercury is more toxic because it is less stable as a molecule than
methylmercury. Like methylmercury, it gains ready access to the brain across
the blood-brain barrier.
-- Ethylmercury leaves more than double the amount of inorganic mercury
trapped in the brain than does methylmercury.
-- Inorganic mercury trapped in the brain can stay for many years, even a
lifetime.



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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. Yeah, I've read that before.
Edited on Thu May-15-08 11:09 PM by varkam
It's a lot scarier when it's a single paragraph, and when it is in bold face.

Nonetheless, they are merely noting that fallout from creating a massive public health scare via a purely theoretical hypothesis would be bad from a risk vs. benefit perspective. They don't say that research should be directed away from such a hypothesis for that reason but that such research is likely to run into a dead-end (as all such research so far has) and so research dollars would be better spend elsewhere (though, as moc noted, the IOM doesn't actually fund research) to, you know, research the etiology and treatment of autism.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #68
70. See reply #69.
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #70
76. Spinning your tires
I understand the Healy takes that position, and I understand that she references the IOM report. Problem is, that is a mis-characterization of the IOM's position as we've just been over.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #76
81. Hardly.
People can disagree with Dr Healy's position. However, to establish any claim that she is mischaracterizing the IOM report requires, at the very least, a direct challenge to Dr Healy.
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #81
86. No, it just requires reading the IOM report.
Edited on Sat May-17-08 02:48 PM by varkam
As we've been over, it looks as though she is mis-characterizing the IOM's position. It is true that there were worries that voicing concerns about a hypothesis could lead to a reduction in vaccination - but that's really only half the story. The other half is that the hypothesis in question is unsubstantiated and as such does not provide justification for getting all hot and bothered over - especially not when there could be significant fallout coming from it. That's not why the IOM discouraged research into the area, however.

The IOM thought that research into the area wouldn't yield anything significant because, well, no research into the area has revealed anything significant. They thought that it would be more worthwhile to look at other, as of yet unstudied, possibilities into the etiology of autism.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. I've read the IOM Report and I accept Dr Healy's position.
Edited on Sat May-17-08 04:19 PM by Jim__
And, in her interview, Dr Healy states that a few of her colleagues that she has spoken with agree that this is still the position of IOM.

As to your claims about research in this area not having been productive, Dr Healy's point in the interview is that the research in this area has not been done. Further, the IOM Report itself notes that research into this area could well be productive.
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. Where does the IOM report say that such research would be productive? eom
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #88
90. Well ...
Edited on Mon May-19-08 08:28 AM by Jim__
... That is, it is possible that some people with autism, perhaps even a subgroup that could eventually be identified by genetic markers, have abnormal immune reactions and abnormal mercury metabolism, but that vaccination of these individuals does not cause these abnormalities or autism itself. However, the experiments showing effects of thimerosal on biochemical pathways in cell culture systems and showing abnormalities in the immune system or metal metabolism in people with autism are provocative; the autism research community should consider the appropriate composition of the autism research portfolio with some of these new findings in mind. ...

...

There are many examples in medicine of disorders defined by a constellation of symptoms that have multiple etiologies, and autism is likely to be among them. Determining a specific cause in the individual is impossible unless the etiology is known and there is a biological marker. Determining causality with population-based methods such as epidemiological analyses requires either a well-defined at-risk population or a large effect in the general population. Absent biomarkers, well-defined risk factors, or large effect sizes, the committee cannot rule out, based on the epidemiological evidence, the possibility that vaccines contribute to autism in some small subset or very unusual circumstances. ...


Once again, Dr. Healy is claiming that there is a group of people available for testing that may identify a well-defined at-risk population, and while the report states that vaccine may not be the actual cause, the clear implication is that it also may well be. Dr Healy is stating that this known group of people both can and should be tested. In either case, whether vaccine is the cause or not, resolving the issue is worthwhile.
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. What's this? They're encouraging research?
However, the experiments showing effects of thimerosal on biochemical pathways in cell culture systems and showing abnormalities in the immune system or metal metabolism in people with autism are provocative; the autism research community should consider the appropriate composition of the autism research portfolio with some of these new findings in mind.

To me, that reads that there should be some follow-up on those findings. The bigger picture, however, is that this sort of thing would likely affect a very small percentage of people with autism if it pans out (as epidemiological evidence hasruled out a 1:1 vaccine to autism effect). So, hypothetically, let's say that 3% of people with autism have it as a result of vaccines. Even if that is true, you're still leaving 97% of the autistic population swinging in the breeze unless you start funneling some of that cash into other avenues of research; hence the term "portfolio".

On Dr. Healy's claim that there is a group of people available for testing that are an identified "at-risk" population: sure, but that's a relatively recent development, one in which it would appear that the IOM is actually encouraging follow-up.

As to the issue being resolved? I'm skeptical that it will ever be resolved primarily because I'm skeptical vaccines will be fingered as the big-bad-autism-bringer. The etiology is likely to be primarily genetic, and it is likely to be complex. My guess is that the issue will never be resolved until research sates the anti-vaxxers, and that will happen anytime between now and when hell freezes over.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #91
92. They explicitly discourage research into this specific area.
Edited on Sat May-24-08 11:02 AM by Jim__
While the committee strongly supports targeted research that focuses on better understanding the disease of autism, from a public health perspective the committee does not consider a significant investment in studies of the theoretical vaccine-autism connection to be useful at this time. The nature of the debate about vaccine safety now includes the theory by some that genetic susceptibility makes vaccinations risky for some people, which calls into question the appropriateness of a public health, or universal, vaccination strategy. However, the benefits of vaccination are proven and the hypothesis of susceptible populations is presently speculative. Using an unsubstantiated hypothesis to question the safety of vaccination and the ethical behavior of those governmental agencies and scientists who advocate for vaccination could lead to widespread rejection of vaccines and inevitable increases in incidences of serious infectious diseases like measles, whooping cough, and Hib bacterial meningitis.

The committee encourages that research on autism focus more broadly on the disorders’ causes of and treatments for it. Thus, the committee recommends a public health response that fully supports an array of vaccine safety activities. In addition the committee recommends that available funding for autism research be channeled to the most promising areas.


And, I am aware that you've seen that before. That's because we've been round this circle before. I don't see any advantage to going round again. Anyone who is interested, can listen to the remarks of Dr Healy, a former head of the NIH, about how certain public health officials fear research into this area, and they can read the report that Dr Healy cites - especially pages 9 thru 12.

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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. Then can you explain the part that I quoted? eom
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. Sure. Context. For instance, consider the whole paragraph that the quote is taken from.
Edited on Sat May-24-08 04:29 PM by Jim__
The committee notes several factors that limit acceptance at this time of the hypothesis that vaccines cause autism. The evidence offered for the hypothesis includes data from in vitro experimental systems, analogies between rodent behavior, and human behavior and clinical observations that are at least as well explained as being comorbid disease expressions than as causal factors. That is, it is possible that some people with autism, perhaps even a subgroup that could eventually be identified by genetic markers, have abnormal immune reactions and abnormal mercury metabolism, but that vaccination of these individuals does not cause these abnormalities or autism itself. However, the experiments showing effects of thimerosal on biochemical pathways in cell culture systems and showing abnormalities in the immune system or metal metabolism in people with autism are provocative; the autism research community should consider the appropriate composition of the autism research portfolio with some of these new findings in mind. However, these experiments do not provide evidence of a relationship between vaccines or thimerosal and autism.


Context is one reason that I suggest that anyone who is interested, can listen to the remarks of Dr Healy, a former head of the NIH, about how certain public health officials fear research into this area, and they can read the report that Dr Healy cites - especially pages 9 thru 12. People can read the entire reprot on any part of it; and judge for themselves whether the IOM is encouraging or discouraging research into this area.

And, of course, when the report is summing up this section, it concludes with these 3 paragraphs:

The committee concludes that much more research must be conducted on autism. However, research should be directed towards those lines of inquiry most supported by the current state of knowledge. The vaccine hypotheses are not currently supported by the evidence. Much remains unknown about the etiology or etiologies of autism. Furthermore, there have not been many studies on treatments for autism. Research should be directed towards better understanding the etiology or etiologies of autism and on treatments for autism.

While the committee strongly supports targeted research that focuses on better understanding the disease of autism, from a public health perspective the committee does not consider a significant investment in studies of the theoretical vaccine-autism connection to be useful at this time. The nature of the debate about vaccine safety now includes the theory by some that genetic susceptibility makes vaccinations risky for some people, which calls into question the appropriateness of a public health, or universal, vaccination strategy. However, the benefits of vaccination are proven and the hypothesis of susceptible populations is presently speculative. Using an unsubstantiated hypothesis to question the safety of vaccination and the ethical behavior of those governmental agencies and scientists who advocate for vaccination could lead to widespread rejection of vaccines and inevitable increases in incidences of serious infectious diseases like measles, whooping cough, and Hib bacterial meningitis.

The committee encourages that research on autism focus more broadly on the disorders’ causes of and treatments for it. Thus, the committee recommends a public health response that fully supports an array of vaccine safety activities. In addition the committee recommends that available funding for autism research be channeled to the most promising areas.


Like I said above, I agree with Dr Healy's assessment. I think it's quite clear that the IOM is discouraging research into this area.
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. There's a keyword in that paragraph:
Edited on Sat May-24-08 10:42 PM by varkam
The committee notes several factors that limit acceptance at this time of the hypothesis that vaccines cause autism. The evidence offered for the hypothesis includes data from in vitro experimental systems, analogies between rodent behavior, and human behavior and clinical observations that are at least as well explained as being comorbid disease expressions than as causal factors. That is, it is possible that some people with autism, perhaps even a subgroup that could eventually be identified by genetic markers, have abnormal immune reactions and abnormal mercury metabolism, but that vaccination of these individuals does not cause these abnormalities or autism itself. However, the experiments showing effects of thimerosal on biochemical pathways in cell culture systems and showing abnormalities in the immune system or metal metabolism in people with autism are provocative; the autism research community should consider the appropriate composition of the autism research portfolio with some of these new findings in mind. However, these experiments do not provide evidence of a relationship between vaccines or thimerosal and autism.

What does the word "however" mean to you? To me, it is somewhat analagous to phrases like "On the other hand" in order to denote that a contrast is coming. That contrast, namely, is that there is some evidence to support a specific line of research into vaccines and autism insofar as certain subgroups are concerned - though that evidence does not amount to a sufficient basis to claim a causal connection. In other words, it seems to me that they're willing to keep an open mind about that line of research but that they do not see justification to go charging down that path within the context (love that word) of other findings concerning vaccines and autism.

On edit: here's some other interesting Healy material you might find interesting: http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/2006/09/bernadine-healy-takes-some-cheap-shots.html
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-25-08 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. If you want to call "however" a keyword, you should note ...
Edited on Sun May-25-08 12:37 PM by Jim__
there's not a keyword in that paragraph, rather, there are 2:

The committee notes several factors that limit acceptance at this time of the hypothesis that vaccines cause autism. The evidence offered for the hypothesis includes data from in vitro experimental systems, analogies between rodent behavior, and human behavior and clinical observations that are at least as well explained as being comorbid disease expressions than as
causal factors. That is, it is possible that some people with autism, perhaps even a subgroup that could eventually be identified by genetic markers, have abnormal immune reactions and abnormal mercury metabolism, but that vaccination of these individuals does not cause these abnormalities or autism itself. However, the experiments showing effects of thimerosal on biochemical pathways in cell culture systems and showing abnormalities in the immune system or metal metabolism in people with autism are provocative; the autism research community should consider the appropriate composition of the autism research portfolio with some of these new findings in mind. However, these experiments do not provide evidence of a relationship between vaccines or thimerosal and autism.


So, whatever you're claiming the however indicates, it seems to be overridden by the second however that begins the concluding sentence of the paragraph - i.e. the paragraph ends by denying the importance of these experiments. It is, of course, also worth noting that Dr Healy claims that the pertinent research, research on selected subgroups, has not been done. And, no matter how many however keywords appear in this paragraph, they do not effect the final 3 paragraphs that draw the conclusion:


The committee concludes that much more research must be conducted on autism. However, research should be directed towards those lines of inquiry most supported by the current state of knowledge. The vaccine hypotheses are not currently supported by the evidence. Much remains unknown about the etiology or etiologies of autism. Furthermore, there have not been many studies on treatments for autism. Research should be directed towards better understanding the etiology or etiologies of autism and on treatments for autism.

While the committee strongly supports targeted research that focuses on better understanding the disease of autism, from a public health perspective the committee does not consider a significant investment in studies of the theoretical vaccine-autism connection to be useful at this time. The nature of the debate about vaccine safety now includes the theory by some that genetic susceptibility makes vaccinations risky for some people, which calls into question the appropriateness of a public health, or universal, vaccination strategy. However, the benefits of vaccination are proven and the hypothesis of susceptible populations is presently speculative. Using an unsubstantiated hypothesis to question the safety of vaccination and the ethical behavior of those governmental agencies and scientists who advocate for vaccination could lead to widespread
rejection of vaccines and inevitable increases in incidences of serious infectious diseases like measles, whooping cough, and Hib bacterial meningitis.

The committee encourages that research on autism focus more broadly on the disorders’ causes of and treatments for it. Thus, the committee recommends a public health response that fully supports an array of vaccine safety activities. In addition the committee recommends that available funding for autism research be channeled to the most promising areas.


And again, the pertinent research has not been done.

As to your citation of a 2006 blog that disagrees with a column Dr Healy wrote on an unrelated topic - please!
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-25-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. Well, they don't.
They are "provocative" the words of the IOM, and "should be considered" as part of a research portfolio. IOW, those findings lay the groundwork for possible future studies into the area but at present they do not constitute evidence of causation. It doesn't seem that those two paragraphs are either contradictory, nor is it the whole story to say that IOM discourages research into the area as in the first blurb they clearly do not.

As to the blog post: I did not think it entirely irrelevant because it would appear that Healy has found some strange bedfellows with CAM advocates in that she's appears to note that evidence-based medicine is a sort of "microfacism". It's...interesting...that's all.



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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-26-08 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. As I noted in response #92, this discussion is just going around in circles.
Edited on Mon May-26-08 08:19 AM by Jim__
There's really no point to going 'round the circle again.
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Jane Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
43. Thanks for your encouragement.
I have to admit that I was made to feel most unwelcome.

Thanks again.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. Some reputable sources on the matter.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. People will defend their most screwball belief system until
their dying breath, no matter how often those beliefs are utterly obliterated by evidence.

I'm incredibly disappointed in this man. He's just another Dr. Google who hasn't done the real work of getting a real education.

I can picture his father smacking him upside the head with a rolled up newspaper trying to smack some sense into him.
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RFKJrNews Donating Member (760 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. So, holding degrees from Harvard and Univ. of Virginia Law...
...doesn't qualify as "real education"?

btw, his father also attended Harvard and Virginia Law.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. At which school did he learn immunology and/or toxicology? n/t
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. I have a couple of degrees, binky
but they're not in astrophysics, so I don't go around making solemn pronouncements and writing articles in astrophysics.

Perhaps Kennedy should stick to his own field, too.

And perhaps other people might realize that just because a man has an MBA or LLD doesn't make him at all knowledgeable in medicine. Kennedy is not knowledgeable in medicine. He is another Dr. Google who is full of panic from screwball sites written by other fools who don't know what the hell they're talking about.

Nobody is more passionate than a total ignoramus who is terrified to give up a screwy belief system.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
31. People will defend their most screwball belief system.
You mean like: He's just another Dr. Google who hasn't done the real work of getting a real education.

Did you read the article that was cited? From the article:

Despite his intense involvement in curbing environmental mercury, Kennedy sidestepped the thimerosal-autism debate for years. In fact, when approached by parents sharing their stories, he was sympathetic but uninterested in jumping into the fray. That changed in 2004, after he reviewed the thimerosal science tooth and claw, and read the CDC’s internal documents revealing their awareness of the danger it posed to properly vaccinated children. First skeptical, then intrigued, he became convinced that the mercury-based preservative was the breadcrumb trail back to the autism epidemic.


So, what led him to believe that vaccines might pose a danger to children was not Google, but CDC internal documents. This is largely supported by Dr. Bernadine Healy, a former NIH Director. She claims that public health officials know what studies need to be done to resolve the issue, but they don't want to perform the studies because they think that will spread fear of vaccine among the general population.

Also from the article:

In 2006, Kennedy wrote an article for Rolling Stone magazine called “Deadly Immunity.” The response to his piece was overwhelming: following the publication, Kennedy received thousands of letters and emails from all over the world. “The astounding thing was how alike all of them were and that people from Mississippi to New Delhi shared such identical experiences. Here is the typical scenario I heard: A mother took her toddler to the doctor where he received a spate of vaccines, became ill that night, often with a fever, sometimes with seizures, then lost the language he had, developed stereotyped behavior and regressed into a looking-glass world of debilitated relationships and social isolation. Essentially,” Kennedy adds, “their lives were plunged into unimaginable agony.” It seemed imperative to Kennedy to keep getting the story out to prevent the catastrophe from damaging other children.


Again, his information came not from Google, but from thousands of e-mails and letters from people directly affected by this.

But, I guess people can protect their screwball belief system by claiming that these are just anecdotes. No reason to doubt a tightly held screwball belief system just because of a few thousand anecdotes.


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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 03:23 PM
Original message
Where are the CDC internal documents?
Just wondered if they are out there for the public to peruse.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
33. The article cited in the OP is just an excerpt from the interview.
I'm not sure whether or not the whole article contains more information about these internal documents or not.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. Wow! You mean he had ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE from PARENTS?
Gee, I'm SO impressed!

Pity he didn't bother to read any of the real studies that have been done over the past couple of decades.

By the way, where is the huge drop in autism since thimerosal has been removed from all mandatory vaccines?

Oops.

There's nothing like a crusader who continues to charge full tilt at a mirage.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. What makes you believe that he didn't read the studies?
It sounds like he looked over CDC internal documents, and figured out that they were not doing the appropriate studies on subsets of autism.

Anecdotal evidence is not science, but it can be an indication for the type of studies that need to be done.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Where's the huge decrease in autism?
Tell me that one, first.

Then you can defend a little tin media god.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. No
I have no idea..........

Again, have subsets of autism been studied?

It seems to me autism is a very broad spectrum. The only way to get at the cause(s) is to do studies on subsets of the population. If one studies the whole population, then the statistics are unlikely to show "significance" due to the size of the population, and the fact that the autism diagnosis is something of a dumping ground.

Let's segment out those that have mitochondrial problems, for example, and do studies on them.

Seems sensible, no?
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Answer: there has not been a decrease in new autism cases.
Go on, admit it. You and RFK Jr. and a whole lot of other people were WRONG on this one.

Go on, you can do it. Just grit your teeth and admit it.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Huh?
I can be just as adament.

Go on. Admit it. Autism is NOT ONE DISORDER. It is many disorders lumped into one diagnosis. Some kids diagnosed with autism actually have mitochondrial disorders. Go on. You can do it. Grit your teeth and do it. Admit it.

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chicagomd Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #47
58. Correct.
It is correctly called Autistic Spectrum Disorder. A change in terminology that resulted from a broadening of the diagnostic criteria and the inclusion of other disorders which occurred in the early 1990s about when...

Oh. Huh. Would you look at that...

About when the fabled "autism epidemic" started. Perhaps this "epidemic" IS mostly explained by a change is the definition of the disease. We don't need to blame vaccines, or anything else for that matter, for the rise in "autism".

My eyes are opened. Itsjustme has shown me the light.



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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. I'm just about certain that plays a role
And it most likely is a large role. You know, though, besides autism there are huge increases in other childhood diseases such as Type 1 diabetes. Although exact statistics have not been kept because it has not been a reportable disease, nobody disputes that the incidence of Type 1 diabetes cases have increased orders of magnitude over say, forty or fifty years ago. Why? I am not pointing to vaccines as a cause at all. But there has to be some cause, and it sure isn't because of changes in reporting criteria.

My point is that we need to get to the bottom of epidemics like this, and the more clearly defined the subsets are, and the more studies we do on the subsets, the more likely we are to get to the causes. Since the Hannah case, I think heavy metals should probably be studied in kids with a combo of mitochondrial disorders and autism, as an example.
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chicagomd Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. And this is the point you seem to be missing:
The bottom of the epidemic has been reached, and what was discovered was an increased awareness of the disease and a change in diagnostic criteria.

Although I am relieved to see that you have finally accepted that vaccines are not a cause of Autistic Spectrum Disorder. I am sure trotsky will be pleased.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. actually, I think that is part of it
BUT there is a component of it that is caused by the same things that have caused an increase in Type 1 diabetes. And it is impossible for the incidence of that to have increased because of changed diagnostic criteria.

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chicagomd Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #67
72. Do you have any evidence
to back up this assertion:

"...there is a component of it that is caused by the same things that have caused an increase in Type 1 diabetes."

Because you are basically saying that two completely different biological pathologies share a common root cause. Do you have any evidence of what those "things" are? Do you have ANYTHING besides baseless speculation?

Or are you just typing bullshit on a message board where you know you have no accountability for your statements?
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. Intestinal Permeability
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17028899?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Increased intestinal permeability precedes clinical onset of type 1 diabetes.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12773694?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Autism is a life-long developmental disorder affecting as many as 1 in 500 children. The causes for this profound disorder are largely unknown. Recent research has uncovered pathology in the gastrointestinal tract of autistic children. The pathology, reported to extend from the esophagus to the colon, is described here along with other studies pointing to a connection between diet and the severity of symptoms expressed in autism. The evidence that there is impaired intestinal permeability in autism is reviewed, and various theories are discussed by which a leaky gut could develop. Lastly, some possible ways in which impaired gastrointestinal function might influence brain function are discussed.

PMID: 12773694



Tight junctions, leaky intestines, and pediatric diseases.Liu Z, Li N, Neu J.
International Peace Maternity and Child Health Hospital, Shanghai, China.

BACKGROUND: Tight junctions (TJs) represent the major barrier within the paracellular pathway between intestinal epithelial cells. Disruption of TJs leads to intestinal hyperpermeability (the so-called "leaky gut") and is implicated in the pathogenesis of several acute and chronic pediatric disease entities that are likely to have their origin during infancy. AIM: This review provides an overview of evidence for the role of TJ breakdown in diseases such as systemic inflammatory response syndrome (SIRS), inflammatory bowel disease, type 1 diabetes , allergies, asthma, and autism . CONCLUSION: A better basic understanding of this structure might lead to prevention or treatment of these diseases using nutritional or other means.

PMID: 16092447



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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. You need to keep up with the latest research.
First of all, White used the discredited Wakefield research to draw his conclusions.

But also,
Leaky gut autism theory doubted
17 March 2008

Children with autism do not appear to leak damaging proteins from their intestines, a study into the so-called "leaky gut" theory has suggested.

It has been claimed autistic children cannot fully digest proteins found in many foods - and that the resulting peptides escape and affect the brain.

But UK researchers found children with autism did not have more peptides in their urine than a control group.

...

"It is very distressing to have a diagnosis of autism, a lifelong condition. Many families are driven to try out interventions which currently have no scientific basis," said Dr Hilary Cass of Great Ormond Street.
More...
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. battle of the research, I suppose
Other studies have found leaky gut and gastrointestinal symptoms in autism.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8888921?ordinalpos=6&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12010627?ordinalpos=5&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15870662?ordinalpos=40&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15459553?ordinalpos=51&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

While not directly related to leaky gut, this one found baby teeth full of mercury in kids with autism--

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17497416?ordinalpos=10&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

This study determined the level of mercury, lead, and zinc in baby teeth of children with autism spectrum disorder (n = 15, age 6.1 +/- 2.2 yr) and typically developing children (n = 11, age = 7 +/- 1.7 yr). Children with autism had significantly (2.1-fold) higher levels of mercury but similar levels of lead and similar levels of zinc. Children with autism also had significantly higher usage of oral antibiotics during their first 12 mo of life, and possibly higher usage of oral antibiotics during their first 36 mo of life. Baby teeth are a good measure of cumulative exposure to toxic metals during fetal development and early infancy, so this study suggests that children with autism had a higher body burden of mercury during fetal/infant development. Antibiotic use is known to almost completely inhibit excretion of mercury in rats due to alteration of gut flora. Thus, higher use of oral antibiotics in the children with autism may have reduced their ability to excrete mercury, and hence may partially explain the higher level in baby teeth. Higher usage of oral antibiotics in infancy may also partially explain the high incidence of chronic gastrointestinal problems in individuals with autism.




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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #80
82. Uh, sure. Do you ever really read the links you provide?
Your first link: TWELVE years old
Your second link: SIX years old
Your third link: THREE years old
Your fourth link: FOUR years old
Your fifth link: your trademark move of changing topics/redirecting focus when you are losing an argument. We can discuss it separately if you're truly interested.

I said you need to keep up with the latest research. This post only further confirms how that is necessary.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #82
83. so what?
It is one study versus several. Six years ago was not the Dark Ages of Science. Really good science was actually done six plus years ago. Latest research (one study) does not nullify several studies in the recent past.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #83
85. Later studies generally build on what came before.
Exploring an aspect more thoroughly, more carefully.

But I understand, you've got a windmill to tilt at, so you're going to latch on to the studies saying windmills are dangerous dragons.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #37
50. Did you even read the excerpts?
Edited on Thu May-15-08 06:04 AM by Jim__
You claim: Pity he didn't bother to read any of the real studies that have been done over the past couple of decades. What is the basis for that statement? Read the excerpts.

Also, you claim that he didn't get a "real education". You claim he is just another Dr Google. Please state your evidence for these claims. A little research will show you are misinformed on both issues.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
8. I'm glad he's an advocate for getting at the truth.
Thanks for posting this. I gave you a K and R previously.
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RFKJrNews Donating Member (760 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. Many thanks
I'm just rather surprised, I guess, to find so much hostility towards Mr. Kennedy on *Democratic* Underground, where his fellow Democrats gather.

Seems to me that all Kennedy is asking for is a real investigation. The research he brings to the table should at least be given fair consideration and not simply dismissed out-of-hand, as the NY Times editorial board did in the meeting described above.

The article goes on to describe NBC/MSNBC and CNN essentially censoring him on this subject as well.



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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Why won't you believe OTHER Democrats, then?
Like Rosalynn Carter? Or is she in on the massive gov't/pharma conspiracy to kill and maim children?
http://www.ecbt.org

The research Kennedy "brings to the table" *has* been given fair consideration. His information was thoroughly smacked down and debunked the first time it came out. See http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/06/from_the_vaults_rfk_jr_gets_hi.php for just one example. The mercury militia is draining resources that COULD be used to improve vaccines by clinging to failed hypotheses despite all evidence to the contrary.

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RFKJrNews Donating Member (760 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Dems disagree, but...
...censoring viewpoints they might not like is another matter entirely.

RFK Jr. obviously disagrees with the mainstream science - that's why he's still pursuing this issue. Seems to me he should have the right to express his reasons and present his own research to the mainstream media. What still amazes me is that they refuse to give him that forum.

In the full article, Kennedy himself says that he believes there is a mainstream media conspiracy to squelch opposing views, and explains why he thinks this is so, based on his own experiences at the NYT and NBC.

I'm not saying he's right- I'm just saying he should be heard.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. LOL
No one's been "censored." Unless you think that preventing people from yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater is censorship, too.

Kennedy has been heard. He got himself a nice big article from Salon and RollingStone. His unscrupulous and dishonest methods of quote-mining and cherry-picking were then exposed. Maybe someday he'll develop some credibility on this issue - 'til then, he'll probably continue to be "censored" just like any non-expert who wants to get into the major media and spout half-truths or even outright lies.

Hey, speaking of which, maybe he could get on Rush Limbaugh's show.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #19
36. Some people have made a religion of vaccination.
Anyone who questions the methods used to sell or make vaccines is a big scary bad person. ;)
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
10. We could put this to rest
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-13-08 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
12. Hrmmm...
Edited on Tue May-13-08 09:17 PM by varkam
I clicked on the link, and this was the first thing that popped out at me:

Despite being frozen out and even ridiculed by the mainstream media for his views on the link between vaccines and autism (is that why his recent World Autism Day appearance on “Larry King Live” was abruptly canceled at the last minute?), Kennedy continues his crusade to inform the public on this important health crisis.


I thought it funny that they decided to mention RFK being bumped from Larry King as evidence of the conspiracy against RFK. If I recall correctly, Larry King had on Jenny McCarthy (a former playmate and current Google U student who believes the same thing RFK does) to talk about the evils of vaccines for a whole hour.

After reading that, it's hard to take anything else after the fold. Personally, I'd be more interested in what was in this supposed stack that RFK had. My guess is that the names Geier, Wakefield, and possibly Kirby were in there somewhere.

edited to make less assholish
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dropkickpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
40. The only conspiracy was Leery King's
Edited on Wed May-14-08 05:29 PM by dropkickpa
love of big boobs. RFK's boobs aren't nearly drool-worthy enough for LK to spend an hour on.
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