An honest question regarding veg vs meat eating... (not flame bait!)

I have this friend who is a "rabid" vegitarian... she believes it is a moral issue and a health issue. Sometimes it really gets on my nerves because she tells me my kids are going to get lymphoma and leukemia because we drink milk, etc...

This is hard for me to deal with. While I am currently working on being more healthy and juicing, etc...I can't just make the drastic switch. I DO think it is more expensive, I DO think we should have BALANCE in our diets, and for me that includes eggs, milk, cheese and meat. Granted, we have at least one vegie dinner a week, but for me it IS an economic question. She is only feeding herself... I am a single mom of 3 kids and not only have limited income but limited time. I can't re-train myself to do food all over again, when survival is paramount for us in many ways.

I don't want to have her constantly telling me how my food is making us sick, etc... we are a pretty healthy family, and while I have my own chronic health issue...it IS genetic. While I agree that diet is important, I can't handle being criticezed for letting my kids eat fucking ice cream in the summertime. (The guilt trip is getting on my nerves, because everything is subject to her food politics.)
And believe me, sometimes I am so tired when I get home from work, I am glad we have hot dogs and mac & cheese (and broccoli or salad, etc...so we aren't ALL bad) because I am too wiped to even deal with geting the plates to the table.

I guess I am just looking for some reassurance - and perhaps some way I can show her proof that meat in moderation is 'supposed' to be part of a human diet. The big question is this:

Does one have to be VEGAN to be Healthy???

EDIT to ADD: I don't feed my kids procesed foods all the time, I DO cook from scratch etc... and what single mom doesn;t do hot dogs ocasionally? FWIW - I shop at the grocery outlet ONLY because it is ALL I can afford, sometimes it is limited, sometimes we do well. But the point is that I'm not in a place to re-train all my shopping and cooking habits right now, financially or time-wise. But we do eat fruit & vegies 5 a day, etc...

and in fact in human infants cholesterol is necessary for brain development, it can be supplied via breast milk however that is not vegan either.

http://wwwchem.csustan.edu/chem4400/SJBR/polet.pdf

There's no animal exploitation issue involved, and feeding their own babies is what mammals do.

seriously I have know vegans that have claimed this admittedly with puppies but the puppies were fed soy substitute and almost died of malnutrition, her vet was pretty outraged
I have known one other vegan who did this with her adult dog (vegan diet) with a near disastrous outcome

I wonder how healthy she is...though she looks okay...poor thing

Trust me, I know what the hell I'm talking about. Breastmilk is vegan. Every book on vegan nutrition generally or vegan children in specific emphasizes the importance of breastfeeding as the foundation of infant nutrition. Anybody who says otherwise is either misinformed or a bit of a whackjob.

Vegan diets for weaned dogs, if properly planned, are fine. Quite a few allergy formulas made by mainstream dog food companies are vegan.

physically OR emotionally -- than when I was vegan. BUT - I think a big part of that is I was also eating 100% organic. Without all the extras they add to our food, I figure my body could just suck up all the nutrients without having to fight off the chemicals, pesticides, whatever.

I'm not sure (health wise) if it's the animal products or what they put INTO the animals that is the problem.

Human beings are adapted to live off all kinds of things, as you can see from our canine teeth as well as our teether for chewing vegetables. The classic "natural" human diet probably consisted of insects as a major food group, and nobody does that anymore but we stay healthy, so our bodies can clearly make due with very diverse diets. Most of the problems come from programming in our brains that tells us to eat as much of X as we can find, usually things rare in nature that our bodies need: salt, fat, sugar. So one should beware of eating fatty dairy and meat in excess, and giving our bodies more than we need. But our bodies obviously are adapted to be omnivores, so there is no scientific argument that eating meat/dairy is harmful in itself. (though it obviously can be in excess)

I guess all we can do is either go organic (which, again, is too expensive for me) or try and undo the damage by eating more antioxidants, phytonutrients, etc to counter act the environmental toxins...besides...what about the crud from the foam in your couch, mattres, etc...it is ALL toxic, and I can't very well buy all organic furniture either! ...or wear a gas mask when walking down the street!

:rofl:

and living in a teepee won;t make me a better human either...even the native americans ate meat, duh!

Most people probably eat too much meat, sure, but meat isn't unhealthy.
The real story is that your friend is obnoxious to nag you to death about your eating habits.

but it is a daily thing... she is right and that's all she can see ar this point. I wish she could understand that if she preaches to everyone, she will burn more bridges than she cares to. Besides, what happened to "to each his own"...?

1. Do people have to be vegan to be healthy? Generally no. In my experience and observation, most people derive health benefits from being vegan. Some people's bodies are more forgiving of bad diet than others, though, so no, you're probably not going to keel over tomorrow from eating hot dogs and mac and cheese tonight. Long term those things will have an effect though, so feeding them to your kids isn't a very good idea. In particular, there's really no safe level of "prepared meats" like hot dogs, those things are highly associated with cancer risk.)

2. Comparative cost- speaking as a single mom here, trust me, vegan diets are affordable. Well, unless one eats a shitpile of prepared convenience food, but that's never a good idea. The cool thing about vegan food is, it tends to get healthier as it gets cheaper.

3. You're looking for evidence that human diets are "supposed to be" omnivorous. Since there's no Big Book of Feeding Humans autographed by His Noodliness, all the evidence we have is what diets result in the best health outcomes. And your friend's got you there.

1. we don't do mac n cheese etc all the time and hot dogs are rare around here too

2. you say it is affordable, but the point is that I don;'t know how to cook and shop for a strict vegetarian diet ...and nobody is going to show me how.. and survival is such an issue for us the time factor (and mommy exhaustion from working 3 jobs) is a block at this point. My mom helps with groceries 2 times a month, and she brings me meat for the freezer and eggs and cheese, so I am not about to turn that down either.

3. ya, no definate answer, but I think that it is important to realize that the Native Americans were not vegan, and they did pretty well.

As far as learning to shop for and prepare vegan food, nobody showed me how. Actually, I was vegan for several years before I knew another adult vegan IRL, so trust me, I had NO help. I got cookbooks from the library and copied recipes that looked good (I was too broke to buy a bunch of cookbooks,) checked recipes on the internet for things I wanted to learn, and generally muddled through. And no vegan I know is a trustafarian with an excess of time and money- we've all got more stuff to do than hours in the day to do it. These things are easier with the internet though, I know down in the veg*n group we do give a lot of advice to new vegetarians and vegans, and there are any number of vegan forums and blogs which are a great resource that really wasn't around way back in the dark ages when I went vegan and had to walk three miles uphill (both ways!) in hip deep snow to get a carton of soymilk and a pound of lentils.

And that's not just with this vegetarian business....it's with all opinions. She has a right to give you her opinion (and I don't nessecarily disagree with her, even though I'm guilty of meat eating). But when concern and discussion turns into hassling and nagging, it's time to get her to cut that shit out.

I liken it to my opinions of religion. I hate religion and I won't always hesistate to give my opinion (although I usually wait until I'm asked.) But there is a line I just don't cross, and it's usually a means to...gee, I don't know...not LOSE my friends.

Tell her to cut the crap.

Then kick her, Spartan-style, into a large pit.

Or talk to her if you wanna be a wuss :eyes:

;)


edit oops, this was meant to be a response to the OP, not you leftymom.

I know your pretty big in the vegan/vegetarian circuit, so I think your the lady to ask. What do most vegan and vegetarians think about eating fish and insects? Fish is supposedly one of the healthiest things you can eat (lol..okay, before the mercury stuff started) and insects are pretty good for you too (and a main meal of many of our natural relatives). Our bodies aren't really built for meat, per se, but it seems fish and insects are good for us and easy to eat. What is the general consensus on these foods (I know your all individuals with different ideas, but I'm just looking for a general answer or *your* answer).

I'd ask in my own thread, but the last thing I want is another flame war.

As for vegans, I think we come the closest to having rules, or at least guidelines, while what self-described vegetarians eat can be a lot harder to predict and can vary a lot by location. In my experience vegetarians in the UK tend to be more consistent about things like cheese made with rennet, gelatin and other non-obvious flesh foods than their American counterparts. I think this is partly because they have better advocacy and public education organizations, and partly because their grocers have been more cooperative about labeling vegetarian and vegan items appropriately.

Obviously, for vegans both fish and intentional consumption of insects wouldn't be allowable, as we simply avoid animal products to the greatest degree possible*. For vegetarians who are at all serious about their vegetarianism, the same would be true, but in my experience there are a lot of people who eat fish and inaccurately describe themselves as vegetarians, and almost no ovo-lacto vegetarians know to avoid insect-derived ingredients like cochineal.

I'm not sure to what degree health arguments would apply to eating insects, and there are probably less health reasons to avoid eating (at least a few kinds of) fish than most land animals, though contamination worries aside fish flesh can be rather high in cholesterol and sometimes also less healthy fats. But as an ethical vegan I just don't eat any kinds of animal products, period. Even if there weren't a health, environmental or even animal welfare reason involved (and I can't think of a case where all three are true) I'd still steer clear in the interest of clarity and to avoid a bad precedent. It's really no loss, I'm quite healthy without such things.

*To clarify this point a bit: Since we live in a society where animal exploitation is so widely practiced and unquestioned, some things are unavoidable due to the lack of alternatives. For example, tires for cars and bikes are made with stearates, which come from animal fats. Film made with gelatin used to be a good example as well, but since digital became widely available there's hardly any need for it anymore. As a general rule, there's a trend toward more vegan alternatives to previously unavoidable animal products.

I'm not sure I can help you convince her that hot dogs are "supposed" to be part of a human diet. Ditto for the other processed foods. Those really aren't supposed to be part of our diet, you know. So you need a different argument there.

Maybe you can strike a deal with her though that will benefit you both in some way. You can both read The Omnivore's Dilemma together, which will help both of you see the other side, including issues with being vegetarian. It will assure her that you understand the issues, you aren't ignorant, and you don't need her lectures, and you will both gain from it because any smart book you read will benefit you. But only agree to that if you both also agree to a moratorium on nagging each other about diet choices.

Thanks all!

Speaking also as a long-time single mom with three children ....

That fact that you are aware/even thinking about what healthy food choices are for your and your children is HUGE, compared to most people in America today. So give yourself a pat on the back (and maybe your friend too, b/c she helped prod you to thinking about such things.... :-) )

Genuine changes in diet/routine/habit take a long time. Work at them slowly, but surely.....less meat, more fruits/veggies. Once your children get used to this, they really will 'choose it for themselves' and their friends will most likely find it 'exotic and cool' if/when you feed your children's friends at your house.

Back in like 2005, I decided that USDA beef wasn't really 'safe' from mad cow disease (it still isn't.....tests aren't allowed, so how could it be considered 'safe'/mad cow free?) Anyway, my little family didn't eat beef AT ALL for nine months, until I finally 'caved'. There was one particular family recipe that just 'would not work' with chicken, turkey, or pork.....it HAD to be made with beef....so I finally made it again with beef. To be honest, when I made that recipe then and when I make it now, I truly feel like I'm 'rolling the dice' (and I'm not a gambler), so I don't make it very often and utilize the most trustworthy sources available to me (which is limited, but 'they're all I've got').

Change is slow, but constant. Thank your friend for enlightening you to a way to better health/life-long habits for you and your family. Don't sweat the small stuff, like serving up the occasional hot dog.

I wish I could trust my country again. (on edit to add: the USDA, for example. There are MANY, MANY other agencies that have ruined reputations after YEARS of consistency. It's a travesty what has happened. Who has ruined all of these agencies reputations anyway? Has it come from without or within?

As am I.

it's simply her personality, and even if you did exactly what she wants you to do she'll find something else to obsess about, or find something wrong in your meal plans, etc. no normal veghead would act like that, it's just reflective of some control issues and disasatisfaction in her own life. would you put up with that kind of behavior from a religous zealout who has good intentions but persists despite being told to stop? could you simply just tell her that you appreciate her concern but she is sitting on your last nerve and maybe you should take a hiatus from each other if she can't mind her own business?

while I can appreciate someone being concerned for my health I would not have half the patience you have. I've dated meat-eaters who felt the need to be obnoxious about my eating habits at every opportunity, needless to say they weren't welcome in my life for long!

You don't owe her any explanation at all of your lifestyle or diet choices. She is WAY out of line, and you need to put your foot down with her.

You're doing a perfectly fine job of feeding your kids. You need to tell your friend to buggar off.

>>>>This is hard for me to deal with. While I am currently working on being more healthy and juicing, etc...I can't just make the drastic switch. I DO think it is more expensive, I DO think we should have BALANCE in our diets, and for me that includes eggs, milk, cheese and meat. Granted, we have at least one vegie dinner a week, but for me it IS an economic question>>>>

No big whoop. Your friend sounds like a bit of a totalitarian. We seem to be hard-wired to project a lot of atavistic , proto-religious stuff on what we eat. Some vegans are ... psychologically speaking... constructing quasi-religious, untra-strict dietary taboos ( eg. kosher, hallal, etc. ).

Wonderful. May they be fruitful and multiply. But mere mortals can promote compassion for animals and undermine factory farming by *reducing* support for same if they can't eliminate it altogether.

No, of course not.

You sound like a great mom, tell her to back off, she has no right to badger you and try to make you feel guilty.

If you do want to experiment, you might want to try veggie dogs. My non-vegetarian best friend is trying to remove some of the red meat in her family's diet, she serves them to her kids all the time and they love them. She also likes Boca Burgers.

Well, there are a lot of people out there that have found "it" in their lives and want to foist it off on their friends--that could be religion (any type), or a food choice. There are probably as many Atkins diet people like that as there are vegans. Diet really is a huge component of health, and probably everyone needs something different, which makes the whole thing really confusing. But friends don't lecture friends about eating habits, or anything else- you know what I mean?

I will say this-- I only buy organic milk. I just absolutely do not think the milk from hormone fed cows is at all healthy. And I will preach this to anyone, but only once. :) However, I wouldn't hound someone about it.

and some people feel like crap when they do.

Changing your diet based on "should" or "ought" from well meaning friends is not going to work.

However, introducing meatless meals can be a survival strategy for this economy.

Just find your own balance and tune out the static from bornagains of all flavors.

Tried to be vegetarian, but I need a lot of protein. And getting protein on a vegatarian diet is really hard for me....things like beans and lentils REALLY do bad things to me (if you catch my drift) when I eat too much. Plus, lot's of oxalate in nuts and beans...that's like begging for another kidney stone.

ideally, most RAW vegetables. I no longer believe vegan is for everybody. I eat meat on occasion, kind of randomly, usually not because I cooked it myself, except I'll make chicken adobo now and then. I used to think I should be vegetarian but I think some meat once in a while is good for me. Not a lot, and ideally, not the USDA - grade meat that's got God knows What in it -- as has been said in this thread already more or less, it's not meat I am afraid of, it's meat the way it is raised now-a-days that scares me away most of the time.

A balanced varied diet is a good thing. Cheating now and then and having macaroni and hot dogs is fine (although hot dogs are a bit too out there for me -- I do like to buy pre-cooked bacon sometimes and munch on it with my grocery-store salad bar -- sure makes eating a lot more FUN!

Your friend needs to know there's not just one right way to eat for everyone. I have a relative who's in his 90's now and he drank strong coffee heavily all his life, ate mostly meat and potatoes, and hated most vegetables. Go figure! But he led a very, very active physical live pretty much his whole life. And had (has!) a sense of humor!

Is it diet or environment or genetics or state-of-mind that leads to longevity? There is no black and white answer.