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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 08:45 PM
Original message
Time to wake up to the facts about sleep
Interesting. We're all chronically sleep deprived. This is a myth I certainly bought into but sleep researcher Jim Horne says it is indeed a myth. Not sure if I agree with his reasoning though. Before my sleep apnea was diagnosed and treated if I was asked what I'd do with an extra hour a day I'd definitely have said something like reading, or socializing. Yet I was most certainly sleep deprived in a massive sort of way. We're conditioned in American culture at least, I think, to think that if we have extra time we should be doing something productive. Horne makes that suggestion too. So it seems only natural for someone to not admit to a need for more sleep. Still, this is an interesting article and Horne gives us much to consider. I'll be adding his book Sleepfaring: a journey through the science of sleep to my long, long list of books to read. You know, that list I keep for the day I suddenly find myself not needing sleep.

ASK people whether they would like more sleep, and most will say yes. Does that mean they are not sleeping enough? The apparent desire for more shut-eye, together with oft-repeated assertions that our grandparents slept longer, all too easily leads to the conclusion that we in the west are chronically sleep-deprived. Adding to these concerns are recent claims that inadequate sleep causes obesity and related disorders, such as diabetes.

Plus ça change. Claims of widespread sleep deprivation in western society are nothing new - in 1894, the British Medical Journal ran an editorial warning that the "hurry and excitement" of modern life was leading to an epidemic of insomnia.

Even then it probably wasn't true. The fact is that most adults get enough sleep, and our collective sleep debt, if it exists at all, has not worsened in recent times. Moreover, claims that sleep deprivation is contributing to obesity and diabetes have been overblown. My assertion is that the vast majority of people sleep perfectly adequately. That's not to say that sleep deprivation doesn't exist. But in general we've never had it so good.
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg20026781.600-time-to-wake-up-to-the-facts-about-sleep.html
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nebenaube Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'd take it with a grain of salt...
and disagree because he's wrong, very wrong.
RPSGT#652
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Wapsie B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Me too.
He's dead wrong. RPSGT #230
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Same question as I asked the previous commenter.
Why do you think he's wrong and what does RPSGT #230 mean?
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nebenaube Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. well
He's wrong because he speaks in absolutes and he dismisses decades of literature in the field. The other thing, well that's just a secret society handshake that suggests I know what I'm talking about.
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. You're a Registered Polysomnographic Technologist?
Cool. Could you elaborate on where you see Horne dismissing decades of literature in the field? I'm not arguing with you, I just don't know the literature so it would be interesting to hear from someone who does. I don't see where Horne is speaking in absolutes, but I did note in my OP that I don't exactly find his reasoning impervious. The historical context was interesting to me though.
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nebenaube Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. This guy...
uses a half dozen or so straw-men and a survey based on sleep state/need perception to trivialize a known disease state. He is a man with an agenda making assertions based on self-reported subjective assessments; note the lack of objective data points. One's perception of how well they slept or how long it took them to fall asleep has no absolute correlation to the stability or integrity of their sleep architecture nor to the duration of their sleep period. Consider the absense of MSLT/MWT data as well as the lack of pupilometery data; the reliance on self-reported subjective measures and prepping the argument with pathetic straw men. Almost as bad as some of the intelligent design arguments I've read. I'm sorry it's a vita stuffer and won't carry water over time.
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-20-08 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. The big problem as I see it
The big problem as I see it, is that with using only subjective reporting we don't know what quality of sleep these people had. Again, drawing on my own experiences before I was diagnosed and treated for sleep apnea, if I had taken this survey I would not have responded very much differently from the rest of the survey participants. Yet I was having hundreds of apnea events every night, and my blood oxygen levels would sometimes dip perilously low. My actual quality of sleep was completely at odds with my perception of how well I slept. And as I noted above, I think there are cultural reasons why someone might report that they would rather do something else than make up for any perceived sleep deficit.

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nebenaube Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. nameste' n/t
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Would you care to elaborate?
Why do you think he's wrong?

BTW: What does RPSGT#652 mean?
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. Somehow, Life Expectancy Keeps Rocketing Upward
Thanks for this post.

Not a week passes without my reading about some new aspect of modern life that will send us to an early grave. Yet, somehow, life expectancy has gone from 45 in 1900 to 75 in 2000, and keeps increasing at a reliable four months every year. Obviously, we're doing something *right*!
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Good point.
This is a common failing of science and medical reporting in the media; making it seem like modernity will be the death of us all. I'm reminded of Ben Goldacre's joke about the media -- it's like they're trying to divide all the inanimate objects in the world into the ones that either cause or cure cancer.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
7. When I retired I thought I would get more sleep.
But it turned out that I slept about the same amount as when I worked 40-50 hours a week.

I had no idea that my anecdotal evidence might be typical.
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annunakigohome Donating Member (223 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
8. It's quality, not quantity
And I know personally (quantitatively, for those obsessed with "proof") that when I eat healthily (and am abstaining from all forms of caffeine and limit my sugar intake) that I wake up refreshed and can get by on less sleep. However, when a person eats heavy, hard-to-digest foods which take up a lot of bodily energy, you will need more sleep because of the toll taken on your body! If you eat lightly, it's easier to wake up with energy and sustain it during your day.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. LOL! Do you really believe that your anecdote is PROOF?
You really don't understand the concept of proof do you?
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annunakigohome Donating Member (223 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. How old are you, if I may be so bold? I love people like you
Edited on Fri Oct-17-08 03:03 PM by annunakigohome
I wonder how they deal with their mortality? Look for "proof?" I do declare!

Honey, do you think you have a soul or are just food for the worms? This isn't about an organized religion; it's just common sense that cannot be proved. That is the irony of life: the most important thing is not grasped by the five senses. All these other things which consume us turn to dust one day...
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Why do you want to change the subject whenever you get called
on your woowoo superstition and anti-science batcrap?
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annunakigohome Donating Member (223 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Because it's all related, my pet
You like to talk about trying to grasp some things which cannot be seen under a microscope.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. You brought up the subject of proof.
And you applied it to something that was clearly NOT proof.

That lead me to comment that you don't seem to understand the concept of proof.

So please, do tell, how your anecdote serves as proof.
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annunakigohome Donating Member (223 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. How about this bombshell: there is no such thing as "proof"
That is the quandary of the scientist: to try and nail down the truth of something. But as we all know, it constantly evolves. Sometimes it goes back to square one. I saw something recently about using leeches for healing and I believe that this was once used and then debunked as 'primitive' treatment. And there are many other examples but my head is swimming at the moment so I have to cut out. Toodles.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. How about this bombshell:
Every time you get caught blowing smoke or spreading bullshit, you change the subject.

It is funny watching you squirm to avoid the obvious fact that you don't know what you are talking about.

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