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Everybody should take speed, say "scientists"

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Hannah Bell

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Thu Dec-11-08 03:08 AM
Original message

Everybody should take speed, say "scientists"

Edited on Thu Dec-11-08 03:10 AM by Hannah Bell

Should Everyone Use ADHD Pills As Brain Boosters?
42 Comments
By Ed Silverman // December 8th, 2008 // 7:48 am

Here�s an idea to debate: Healthy people should have the right to boost their brains with the same kind of pills that are prescribed for hyperactive kids or older adults with memory problems, several scientists contend in a commentary written in Nature. Part of the justification - college students already illegally use stimulants such as Ritalin to help them study.

�We should welcome new methods of improving our brain function,� they write. �In a world in which human workspans and lifespans are increasing, cognitive enhancement tools - including the pharmacological - will be increasingly useful for improved quality of life and extended work productivity, as well as to stave off normal and pathological age-related cognitive declines. Safe and effective cognitive enhancers will benefit both the individual and society.�

http://www.pharmalot.com/page/3/

"cognitive enhancers" = orwell-speak

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niceypoo

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Thu Dec-11-08 03:15 AM
Response to Original message

1. Well.....

I think with my, 'you know what,' so it would be viagra for me...

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dixiegrrrrl

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Thu Dec-11-08 03:24 AM
Response to Original message

2. and after the uppers, we will need downers, then need treatment

Sounds like a money making proposition for quite a few industries.

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mahina

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Thu Dec-11-08 03:52 AM
Response to Original message

3. Yay speed!

Edited on Thu Dec-11-08 03:53 AM by mahina

I used to love speed. The 80's were great.
Now? Not so much. Are they nuts or on drugs?

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aquart

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Thu Dec-11-08 03:53 AM
Response to Original message

4. I thought it worked differently on ADD people than "normal" ones?

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Fire_Medic_Dave

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Thu Dec-11-08 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #4

18. It hopefully brings the Dopamine levels in their brains to normal levels.

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aquart

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Fri Dec-12-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #18

26. So then what is it doing to "normal" people?

And does it matter what kind of methamphetamine you take?

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Fire_Medic_Dave

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Fri Dec-12-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #26

29. Increasing their Dopamine levels to abnormally high levels.

Do you mean does it matter what kind of CNS stimulant you take?

David

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aquart

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Sat Dec-13-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #29

31. That, too.

Also, do we know the side effects of "abnormally high levels" of dopamine?

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Fire_Medic_Dave

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Sat Dec-13-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #31

32. Yes, the side effect of artificially increasing dopamine to abnormal levels is most often addiction.

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lapfog_1

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Thu Dec-11-08 04:34 AM
Response to Original message

5. Why don't we all meet and talk about this over some coffee..

or, if you prefer, some alcoholic beverages of your choice.

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angrycarpenter

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Thu Dec-11-08 06:41 AM
Response to Original message

6. Remember that movie by George Lucas?

His first. About a society ruled by corporations with mandatory drug use. I can't remember the name.

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kedrys

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Thu Dec-11-08 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #6

7. THX 1138

Oh yeah. I remember it vividly. A cautionary tale about totalitarianism if ever there was one.

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cosmik debris

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Thu Dec-11-08 08:12 AM
Response to Original message

8. Do you ever get hoarse from crying "WOLF!" all the time?

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Jim__

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Thu Dec-11-08 08:36 AM
Response to Original message

9. I agree with at least part of what the article says.

Namely: He and the others say laws should be rewritten to avoid making felons out of those who use the pills safely.

I don't think using a drug should ever be a felony.

As to the first question: Should Everyone Use ADHD Pills As Brain Boosters? The answer is clearly no.

But, I believe that the statement: Healthy people should have the right to boost their brains with the same kind of pills that are prescribed for hyperactive kids or older adults with memory problems is worthy of debate.

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Celebration

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Thu Dec-11-08 08:44 AM
Response to Original message

10. To give an attention boost for the normal adult brain

Try NADH. The 10mg size will really get you going, without any letdown, without withdrawal, etc.

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BuddhaGirl

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Thu Dec-11-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #10

13. love NADH

I also take Cognitex, from Life Extension, w/ pregnenelone. The combination of ALA and Acetyl l-carnitine is great also.

There are more natural ways to enhance brain function without drugs.

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leftyladyfrommo

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Mon Dec-15-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #10

35. What is NADH? Where do you get it.

Does it make blood pressure go up?

I used provigil for a while but my blood pressure really went up. And I hated the side effects.

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cosmik debris

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Mon Dec-15-08 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #35

36. It is another supplement from the snake oil industry

You can buy it from a lot of on-line suppliers, but watch out for the disclaimers like this one:

"The products and the claims made about specific vitamins, supplements or other items or procedures on or through this website have not been evaluated by the United States Food and Drug Administration and are not approved to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent disease."

In other words, they may be pulling your leg, but they won't tell you that in those words.

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salvorhardin

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Thu Dec-11-08 08:48 AM
Response to Original message

11. Did you read the actual opinion article in Nature?

Edited on Thu Dec-11-08 08:49 AM by salvorhardin

An evidence-based approach is required to evaluate the risks and benefits of cognitive enhancement. At a minimum, an adequate policy should include mechanisms for the assessment of both risks and benefits for enhancement uses of drugs and devices, with special attention to long-term effects on development and to the possibility of new types of side effects unique to enhancement. But such considerations should not lead to an insistence on higher thresholds than those applied to medications. ...

The second concern is freedom, specifically freedom from coercion to enhance. Forcible medication is generally reserved for rare cases in which individuals are deemed threats to themselves or others. In contrast, cognitive enhancement in the form of education is required for almost all children at some substantial cost to their liberty, and employers are generally free to require employees to have certain educational credentials or to obtain them. Should schools and employers be allowed to require pharmaceutical enhancement as well? And if we answer 'no' to this question, could coercion occur indirectly, by the need to compete with enhanced classmates and colleagues? ...

We call for enforceable policies concerning the use of cognitive-enhancing drugs to support fairness, protect individuals from coercion and minimize enhancement-related socioeconomic disparities. ...

In contrast, we suggest a policy that is neither laissez-faire nor primarily legislative. We propose to use a variety of scientific, professional, educational and social resources, in addition to legislation, to shape a rational, evidence-based policy informed by a wide array of relevant experts and stake-holders.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/456702a.html

Those are just four short excerpts from a long, thoughtful article which is arguing essentially that we need to recognize that psychiatric drugs are already being used to enhance cognitive function and we should plan and implement policy designed to protect individual liberties and reduce harm from both the use of such drugs and any coercion to use them. The authors also call for more research to understand the benefits and risks associated with taking these drugs by people seeking to enhance cognitive function. It's basically a call for a rational drug control policy.

Perhaps the only controversial aspect of this paper is that it asks the reader to think of drugs not as a moral dilemma but instead as a technology to be used judiciously as we might use any other technology.

Like all new technologies, cognitive enhancement can be used well or poorly. We should welcome new methods of improving our brain function. In a world in which human workspans and lifespans are increasing, cognitive enhancement tools � including the pharmacological � will be increasingly useful for improved quality of life and extended work productivity, as well as to stave off normal and pathological age-related cognitive declines23. Safe and effective cognitive enhancers will benefit both the individual and society.

But it would also be foolish to ignore problems that such use of drugs could create or exacerbate. With this, as with other technologies, we need to think and work hard to maximize its benefits and minimize its harms.

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trotsky

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Thu Dec-11-08 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #11

17. This ain't called the Health Scare Lounge for nuthin'.

Cripes, you've got one guy, I forget how many years he's been posting, whose inability to read has resulted in him posting studies that DIRECTLY CONTRADICT his point. Far too many people skim the headline - or worse, skim the headline of a blog - and piece it in with their knee-jerk fear of evidence-based medicine to draw unsupported conclusions.

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mopinko

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Thu Dec-11-08 09:03 AM
Response to Original message

12. it's not speed, for christ sakes.

talk about bullshit language.

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Liberal Veteran

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Thu Dec-11-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #12

14. Well, yes it is. Ritalin and Concerta are CNS stimulants....

...and classified as schedule 2 drugs (very high potential for abuse). They are in the same class as Amphetamines .

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mopinko

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Thu Dec-11-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #14

16. yeah, but they are still not speed.

really.

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Fire_Medic_Dave

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Thu Dec-11-08 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #16

19. Well Adderall is a formulation of mixed amphetamine salts.

It's not meth cooked in someone's garage but it is a highly abusable substance.

David

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Hannah Bell

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Fri Dec-12-08 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #16

20. "Amphetamine and related drugs such as methamphetamine

Edited on Fri Dec-12-08 02:41 AM by Hannah Bell

are a group of drugs that act by increasing levels of norepinephrine, serotonin, and dopamine in the brain.<3> It includes prescription CNS drugs commonly used to treat attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) in adults and children."

"Brand names of the drugs that contain amphetamine include Adderall, Vyvanse...."

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Hannah Bell

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Fri Dec-12-08 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #20

21. "Is meth the same thing as Amphetamines such as prescription drugs like adderall and ritalin?"

Edited on Fri Dec-12-08 03:09 AM by Hannah Bell

A: "Meth" is meth-amphetamine, which is a type of amphetamine...Take a look at Chem Compare. If you look on the far right end on these images, you can see that there is a "NH-CH3" on the Methamphetamine where there is a "NH2" on the amphetamine....Adderall is simply a brand name for a particular mix of different "stereoisomers" (same atoms connecting at the same places, just pointing in different directions in space at one point in the molecule) and salts of amphetamine...

Ritalin (methylphenidate) does contain an amphetamine-like backbone, however it is more complex...The additional structures on this molecule also alter its interaction with the body and the neurons in our brains. Methylphenidate is reported to have less euphoric effects (some people describe it as 'more dull') than methamphetamine...

Another thing to note when talking about the differences in the amphetamine-class stimulants is that one of the strange effects of current culture is that particular drugs are demonized in the news, ...even though amphetamine-related stimulant drugs -- including methylphenidate (Ritalin), amphetamine (Adderall, Dexedrine), & methamphetamine (Desoxyn) -- are commonly prescribed for children from as young as age 3....

http://www.erowid.org/ask/ask.php?ID=2846

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Hannah Bell

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Fri Dec-12-08 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #21

22. "Desoxyn is a brand of methamphetamine hydrochloride

(also known as desoxyephedrine, hence the name "Desoxyn"), indicated for treatment of Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), narcolepsy, and exogenous obesity.

Desoxyn is an enantiopure preparation of dextromethamphetamine.

Desoxyn is a Schedule II medication under the U.S. DEA Schedule system."

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Hannah Bell

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Fri Dec-12-08 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #21

23. "Why is Dexedrine prescribed?"

Dexedrine, a stimulant drug available in tablet or sustained-release capsule form, is prescribed to help treat the following conditions:

Narcolepsy (recurrent "sleep attacks")

Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. (The total treatment program should include social, psychological, and educational guidance along with Dexedrine.)

http://www.healthsquare.com/newrx/dex1129.htm

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mopinko

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Fri Dec-12-08 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #21

24. sterioisomers

saying something is a sterioisomer and therefore the same things shows your ignorance of basic chemistry.

i also do not think that they are advocating selling these drugs over the counter. they are talking about allowing drs to prescribe them. that would be your basic big difference right there. i support decriminalizing all drugs. prescriptions for heroin, with poppies bought on a regulated market, made into heroin in a regulated factory, dispensed under controlled conditions, is the way to go. no doubt there will be some black market still. there are black market cigarettes. but it will result in immense harm reduction for the addict and the community. shit, the world.

if we can do that, we can allow people to make the informed decision to take a drug that will make them more of what they feel they need to be. no one is going to force that on people. it beats having them spend big money on supplements that do nothing.

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Hannah Bell

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Fri Dec-12-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #24

25. Those are all quotes, bright one. A number of ADHD drugs do, in fact,

Edited on Fri Dec-12-08 01:17 PM by Hannah Bell

contain amphetamines, i.e. "speed". Left-handed speed, right-handed speed, both = speed.

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mopinko

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Fri Dec-12-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #25

27. don't be insulting.

left hand and right hand can be as different as a miracle drug and a poison.
"speed" is a street drug, unregulated in manufacture and consumption. to compare it to medications that have legitimate uses and evidence based support is to show the disingenuousness of your argument.
and quotes from somebody's blog don't mean squat.

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Hannah Bell

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Fri Dec-12-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #27

28. You called me ignorant. Left-handed & right-handed amphetamine is amphetamine.

Edited on Fri Dec-12-08 02:34 PM by Hannah Bell

Blow smoke as you will.

You could just as easily say amphetamine with a methyl group "isn't amphetamine cause of its different chemistry" - but of course, it is.

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Fire_Medic_Dave

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Sat Dec-13-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #28

34. Do you see a problem with these drugs being used to treat ADHD?

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Liberal Veteran

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Fri Dec-12-08 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #27

30. No. Actually, "speed" is a street name for a type of drug.

Dexedrine and half-dozen other drugs are considered speed (at least when I was in high-school). Primarily referring to amphetamines.

While I don't necessarily agree with HB's distrust of the pharmaceutical companies, methamphetamine is speed whether it made in the basement of someone's house or obtained by a prescription.

Honestly, most of the speed we got in high school was legally prescribed at some point.

It's a silly semantic argument and may be regional, but speed is a name for illicitly obtained stimulant drugs whether they were gotten on the street or by doctor shopping.

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Fire_Medic_Dave

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Sat Dec-13-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #24

33. The problem with "normal" people taking amphetamines is it artificially increases the dopamine....

Edited on Sat Dec-13-08 05:19 PM by Fire_Medic_Dave

to abnormal levels. It is those abnormal levels that most often result in addiction.

David

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Warpy

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Thu Dec-11-08 02:11 PM
Response to Original message

15. I got into meth in the 60s

but only a quarter as much as the meth users around me used and only one day a week. I'd buzz around all day on Saturday, cleaning up my flat and doing the laundry. It was a good deal for somebody with undiagnosed lupus who was exhausted all the time.

I just found that doing anything more critical than house cleaning wasn't a good idea, as well as trying to study and learn on the stuff. It just didn't work.

Eventually I realized that the payback I got on an exhausted Sunday when going out and getting a paper and staring at it unread for three hours wore me out was too much and I went back to flogging myself to do laundry and living in filth. At least I got to read that Sunday paper on Sunday.

I think psychoactive drugs might have a part in helping gimps like me function. I just think the scientists are all wet on this one and would probably find the quality of their work vastly improved if they did it sober.

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