The Great Cholesterol Controversy

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2009/feb2009_The-Cholesterol-Controversy_01.htm


Danger of Oxidized LDL

The over-promotion of “statin”drugs has resulted in today’s cardiologists focusing on getting their patients’ LDL and total cholesterol down as low as possible. Pharmaceutical company advertising has made it appear as if the only cause of atherosclerosis is excess LDL and cholesterol.
Danger of Oxidized LDL

Beginning in 1979, however, researchers made discoveries indicating that it is the oxidation of LDL that results in the most arterial damage.37-39 Thousands of studies now reveal how oxidized LDL contributes to the atherosclerotic process from start to finish.

There are doctors who argue that atherosclerosis is all about inflammation and response to endothelial injury and has nothing to do with LDL cholesterol. What these doctors overlook is the fact that oxidized LDL injures endothelial cells and causes inflammation!40-46

Oxidized LDL causes endothelial cells to secrete “adhesion molecules” that allow white blood cells to penetrate the inner lining of the artery (the endothelium). This is where initial fatty streaks and atherosclerotic plaques develop.47

Oxidized LDL turns on white blood cell gene expression that enables them to convert into foam cells, which results in continuous accumulation of oxidized LDL in the atherosclerotic plaque.48

Oxidized LDL initiates an inflammatory process by causing foam cells to secrete molecules that attract proinflammatory cells.47

It's true that the mechanism by which statins work is probably by reduction of inflammation. However, trials have shown that no matter what you're cholesterol reading, taking statins cuts risk of death and other bad events.

This article seems to imply that eating pomegranate will reduce risk of bad events. I don't think there's any study that shows this outcome.

'cause the Life Extension Foundation, where the OP's "article" is published, will also happily sell you Pomegranate Extract Capsules, at the low, low, I-can't-believe-we're-selling-them-this-low price of only $24 for 30 capsules (or $15.75, if you're a member, and buy 4 bottles).

Sid

can smell the smoke.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2438359&tool=pmcentrez&rendertype=abstract

Several recent studies have documented that supplementation with pomegranate fruit extract inhibits inflammatory symptoms in vivo. However, the molecular basis of the observed effects has not been fully revealed. Although previous studies have documented the inhibition of nitric oxide and cyclooxygenase (COX) activity in vitro by plant and fruit extracts added directly into the culture medium but whether concentrations of bioactive compounds sufficient enough to exert such inhibitory effects in vivo can be achieved through oral consumption has not been reported.

In the present study we determined the effect of rabbit plasma obtained after ingestion of a polyphenol rich extract of pomegranate fruit (PFE) on COX enzyme activity ex vivo and the IL-1β-induced production of NO and PGE2 in chondrocytes in vitro. Plasma samples collected before and 2 hr after supplementation with PFE were tested. Plasma samples collected after oral ingestion of PFE were found to inhibit the IL-1β-induced PGE2 and NO production in chondrocytes. These same plasma samples also inhibited both COX-1 and COX-2 enzyme activity ex vivo but the effect was more pronounced on the enzyme activity of COX-2 enzyme.

Taken together these results provide additional evidence of the bioavailability and bioactivity of compounds present in pomegranate fruit after oral ingestion. Furthermore, these studies suggest that PFE-derived bioavailable compounds may exert an anti-inflammatory effect by inhibiting the inflammatory cytokine-induced production of PGE2 and NO in vivo.

But extrapolating a study like that is really a stretch, I think.

I wonder what is up with all this wasted time... and money.

On Edit to add link:
http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?term=pomegranate

Rank Status Study

1 Recruiting Effects of Pomegranate Juice or Extract on Rising PSA Levels in Men Following Primary Therapy for Prostate Cancer
Condition: Prostate Cancer
Interventions: Drug: Pomegranate Juice; Other: Placebo; Behavioral: Questionnaire

2 Recruiting A Study Of the Effectiveness Of Pomegranate Pills in Men With Prostate Cancer Before Prostatectomy
Condition: Prostate Cancer
Interventions: Dietary Supplement: Pomegranate pill; Dietary Supplement: Pomegranate pill placebo

3 Not yet recruiting Impact of Maternal Pomegranate Juice on Brain Injury in Infants With Intrauterine Growth Restriction (IUGR)
Condition: Intrauterine Growth Restriction
Interventions: Dietary Supplement: Pomegranate Juice; Dietary Supplement: Placebo

4 Active, not recruiting Antioxidant Effects of Pomegranate Juice Versus Placebo in Adults With Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus
Condition: Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus
Interventions: Dietary Supplement: Pomegranate Juice; Dietary Supplement: Placebo Juice

5 Recruiting Extension to Study of Effects of Pomegranate Extract on Rising PSA Levels After Primary Therapy for Prostate Cancer
Condition: Prostate Cancer
Interventions: Other: pomegranate extract; Other: pomegranate juice; Other: placebo

6 Completed Trial to Evaluate the Use of Pomegranate Concentrate (POMx) for the Prevention of Experimental Rhinovirus Infection
Condition: Common Cold
Interventions: Dietary Supplement: Pomegranate Concentrate (POMx); Dietary Supplement: Placebo

7 Completed Pomegranate Products for Prevention of Common Cold
Conditions: Influenza; Common Cold; Cough; Headache; Fever
Interventions: Dietary Supplement: Pomegranate; Dietary Supplement: Placebo

8 Recruiting Open-Label Extension Study of the Effects of Pomegranate Extract on Rising PSA After Primary Therapy for Prostate Cancer
Condition: Prostate Cancer
Intervention: Other: pomegranate liquid extract

9 Recruiting Study of the Effects of Pomegranate Tablets on Enlarged Prostates
Condition: Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia
Interventions: Drug: Placebo Tablet; Drug: Pomegranate Tablet

10 Recruiting Pomegranate Extract in Treating Patients With Rising Prostate-Specific Antigen Levels After Surgery or Radiation Therapy for Localized Prostate Cancer
Condition: Prostate Cancer
Interventions: Dietary Supplement: pomegranate juice; Other: placebo

11 Recruiting The Effect of Pomegranate Juice on Oxidative Stress in Hemodialysis Patients
Conditions: End Stage Renal Disease; Hemodialysis
Interventions: Dietary Supplement: Pomegranate juice; Dietary Supplement: Placebo

12 Active, not recruiting Pomegranate Juice in Treating Patients With Recurrent Prostate Cancer
Condition: Prostate Cancer
Intervention: Dietary Supplement: pomegranate juice

13 Recruiting The Effect of Licorice Root Extract and Pomegranate Juice on Atherosclerotic Parameters in Diabetic Patients
Conditions: Diabetes Mellitus; Atherosclerosis
Intervention: Drug: Licorice root extract or Pomegranate juice

14 Completed The Effects of Consumption of Pomegranate Juice on Carotid Intima-Media Thickness
Condition: Coronary Artery Disease
Interventions: Drug: PomWonderful Juice; Drug: Placebo juice

15 Recruiting Effects of Polyphenol Containing Antioxidants on Oxidative Stress in Diabetic Patients
Condition: Type 2 Diabetes
Intervention: Dietary Supplement: PomGT (500 mg pomegranate extracts, 300 mg green tea and 60mg vitamin C)

16 Recruiting Dietary Intervention in Follicular Lymphoma
Condition: Follicular Lymphoma
Interventions: Drug: Omega 3 fatty acids (EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) and DHA (docosahexaenoic acid)); Drug: Selenium (L-Selenomethionine),; Drug: Garlic extract (Allicin); Drug: Pomegranate juice (ellagic acid); Drug: Grape juice (resveratrol, quercetin); Drug: Green Tea (Epigallocathechin gallate)

17 Recruiting Dietary Intervention With Phytochemicals and Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids in Prostate Cancer Patients
Condition: Prostate Cancer
Intervention: Dietary Supplement: Prostate cancer, phytochemical and PUFA

18 Not yet recruiting The Effect of a Natural Polyphenolic Extract From Pomegrnate (POMX) on the Development of Atherosclerosis in Diabetic Patients
Condition: Atherosclerosis
Intervention: Drug: POMx

How many of these studies are funded by POM Wonderful LLC or its parent company Roll International?

And did you notice that of the studies that have been completed NONE released the results?

Makes you go Hmmmmm?

pomegranite capsules because of an article in the Sunday paper - but it was described as an anti-occidant. No mention of anything else...

Had nothing to do with POM though..

I've gone through every statin drug on the market, and there are none that I can tolerate. I don't know how wide statin intolerance is, but medical people seem surprised when I tell them ( can't take statins. Apparently it does some damage to my liver.

http://www.cholestoff.com/


Nature Made CholestOff contains ingredients that are clinically proven to reduce cholesterol safely and naturally. These ingredients are plant extracts called phytonutrients. Two specific types, phytosterols and phytostanols, help prevent the body from absorbing dietary cholesterol. †




Nature Made CholestOff COMPLETE reduces 2 sources of cholesterol:

- Dietary: cholesterol comes from animal-derived food: meat, fish, eggs, and dairy products.

- Genetic: cholesterol is naturally produced in everybody's liver, and its level depends on ones family history.


Q. What are plant sterol and stanols and how do they work to lower cholesterol?
A. Phytosterols and phytostanols are found naturally in plants. Because their molecular structure is similar to that of cholesterol they decrease absorption of cholesterol, both from foods and from reabsorption of cholesterol made in the liver and secreted into the intestines.

Sterols and stanols are recommended as part of the NIH’s TLC (Therapeutic Lifestyle Changes) Diet. The TLC diet recommends:

* Limiting the amount of saturated fat and cholesterol you eat.
* Eating only enough calories to achieve or maintain a healthy weight.
* Increasing the soluble fiber in your diet. For example, oatmeal, kidney beans, and apples are good sources of soluble fiber.
* Adding cholesterol-lowering food, such as margarines that contain plant sterol or stanol esters that lower cholesterol for some people.

good cholesterol up to 28%

http://www.emedexpert.com/tips/greentea.shtml

being the villain. I hope they are right.

The website that brought the bad news is also the website that will sell you the cure.

Isn't that convenient!

Here's a listing of their positions on current legislation:
http://capwiz.com/lef/issues/bills/

Interesting that they oppose Democratic bills by Dick Durbin and Ted Kennedy, on things like making the supplements industry more accountable for reporting adverse reactions, while supporting Republican bills from Ron Paul (!) and Charles Grassley which opposes ammending "the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FFDCA) to provide that a food or dietary supplement is not a drug solely because the label or labeling contains a claim to cure, mitigate, treat, or prevent disease."

Amazing what you can find with a little digging.

Sid

These guys are 4 years behind on their legislative calendar and about 100 years behind in their understanding of science and law.

thanks for the clarification.

Sid

factual evidence... ad hominem attacks are so much more productive.

and support Republican ones? That wasn't factual evidence?

Sid

change the fact that there is and always has been a great cholesterol controversy.

Is that any different than marketing for pharmaceuticals?

~ snipped

At the American Academy of Pain Medicine Annual Meeting in January, Lilly presented a study by its own doctors finding Cymbalta was superior to placebo in knee pain--in keeping with its penchant to publish studies by Lilly funded and Lilly employed doctors saying Cymbalta is safe.

"These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA, These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease."

And yet there seem to be thousands of idiots who purchase the products for the purpose of treating, curing, or preventing disease.

They publish "articles" that say that they have a cure, but they sell products that they say don't cure. It is double talk and it is a scam.

and disclaimers (required by the FDA). They do studies. You know good and well that no pharma is going to touch pomegranate juice, or any other food, because there are NO HUGE PROFITS. Unless they GMO it and patent. Add a bit of bio-engineering, and you've got yourself a winner! :sarcasm:

Yet, Eli Lily can make claim after claim, while people hang and shoot themselves because the GOVERNMENT says so. Again, you go with complete and utter faith in your government. Untenable position.

There is no moral ground to supporting pharmaceuticals over natural treatments based on marketing. None.

that it is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease?

at obtuse?

FEDERALLY MANDATED disclaimer.
I guess all us fools who don't unequivocally believe everything the government pisses on us!
Those kinda.

(My son would answer, "no, I'm isosceles".)

TRUE!

The only way you can make that claim is to have 100% confidence in the government, despite all the evidence to the contrary. If you have that kind of faith, I can't help you.

It is the snake oil company selling bogus cures.

They are required to make the disclaimer unless they can prove that their product works.

Since they can't prove that their products work, they have to admit it publicly.

I would have thought you would appreciate such transparency.

Since their "articles" are so dishonestly misleading, I find it refreshing that they can be a little bit honest even if it is only in the fine print.

woefully uninformed about labeling requirements. Nothing "refreshing" about it. It's mandated.
And there are gaps in your understanding of the government's definition of "proof".

Again, with the blind faith you hold in the government, I cannot help you. Go ask big bubba.

Apparently you don't.

There are very clear rules for proof and unless they are met, it is not proof. The same rules apply to all.

I'm sorry you are unable to grasp that, but I'm sure if you do a little research at google you can figure it out.

:rofl:

I'm sure you have some symptom or another that Eli promotes. :sarcasm:

I've known more than a dozen people who suicided, and second-hand dozens more over the course of my lifetime. This isn't a risk I'm willing to take or defend. Especially from a company who is already paying penalties for breaking the law!

EOM .. I'm not getting into this with you. "Vast majority" is bs when the company cannot even keep their trial subjects alive.

and my energy is mine to use as I see fit. :freak:

And you're not the boss of me.

for safety and efficacy. Snake oil salesmen have no standards of safety or efficacy.

They measure their efficacy by the P&L statement. It is all about big profits. Product purity and truth in labeling are not important considerations. They will sell you any damn thing you will buy and laugh all the way to the bank.

However, suddenly jerking all supplements from store shelves, and putting them behind the pharmacist's counter and requiring a prescription from a doctor who has received minimal nutritional training in med school, is not the correct solution. A doctor who fewer and fewer Americans can afford to visit...

Nobody has suggested that but you.

But the multi-billion dollar snake oil business will never willingly submit to basic regulation like listing all ingredients in order of quantity, guaranteeing purity and dose, listing all side effects and interactions, and not making claims that are not supported by facts.

They are just trying to make huge profits off of gullible fools who don't read or understand what the disclaimer means.

Nobody has suggested that but you.

Bills enforcing exactly that have been defeated or fallen along the wayside.

Some manufacturers do hold themselves to the standards you suggest. I'm sure they would be welcome market wide standards.

I mean, they will be part of the Congressional Record whether they passed or not. Surely you must have a cite or two?

Right on time! choo-choo

If I have time and inclination I will. I find it annoying when people who show up late for class expect the rest of us to wait around. For those of us who have kept up with these events for 30 years, sometimes we just don't want to. And I'm nobody's nannie. Maybe someone else will step forward to tutor you. Or, you could do it yourself.

That some of us don't believe you.

And for good reason.

Maybe I'm wrong. But if you're interested in proving that, then it rests on you to go find out!

Let me tell you something about myself. Take a seat.

When my dad taught me to wash dishes, he said, wash the pans last. So, naturally, I washed them first!
After the SOS dissolved all the soap suds, I had more information. At the breakfast table, I held a bottle of aspirin upside down and took the top off. My dad got pissed. My mom asked, haven't you ever done anything just to see what would happen?

Research and writing papers were my favorite educational endeavors. I'm a synthesizer by nature. And curious. Very curious. When I wrote my hs senior paper, I visited the SMU library and the University of Dallas. No one else did that, but it gave me the jollies. When I wondered if a low carb diet was right for me, I read three books, and devised my own modified diet from information contained in all three.

I adore the internet for all the information it holds. When I want to discover the validity of something, I go off and look for it!
I don't sit on my twattle and demand someone else do it, and then if they don't, accuse them of COWARDICE.

However. For someone like yourself, who prefers the government issued MREs, so you can follow instructions exactly to the "T", I don't think you'll get what I'm about. Your opinion means so very little to me.

I don't really know what you are talking about. I have no need or desire to prove anything. You made a statement that seemed to lack credibility. You were asked to back it up, You declined.

Your personal story is of no interest to me. But your repeated, unfounded insults show that you don't tolerate disagreement very well.

When you leap to conclusions about who I am and what I believe or want, you show exactly why your credibility is in question. You don't know me, yet you make up stuff to insult me. That hurts you more than it hurts me.

All we did was ask for a link. Pretty obvious when someone realizes they got called on their bullshit, isn't it? I think this self-righteous indignation response is perhaps the most entertaining.

that you are displaying a lack of understanding in an exercise to examine "contrast".

n. (kŏn'trăst')

1.
a. The act of contrasting; a setting off of dissimilar entities or objects.
b. The state of being contrasted: red berries standing in vivid contrast against the snow.
2. A difference, especially a strong dissimilarity, between entities or objects compared: the contrast between Northern and Southern speech patterns.
3. One thing that is strikingly dissimilar to another: My new school was a welcome contrast to the one before.
4. The use of opposing elements, such as colors, forms, or lines, in proximity to produce an intensified effect in a work of art.
5. The difference in brightness between the light and dark areas of a picture, such as a photograph or video image.
6. Linguistics. A difference between units, especially one that distinguishes meaning.


You have repeatedly revealed yourself to be of an ilk to have unfailing faith in what the government reports for your consumption.
I am not (the same).

And your assumption that I have "unfailing faith in what the government reports" is just an effort to insult me with extreme caricatures of the position that you IMAGINE that I hold.

That behavior hurts you more than it hurts me.

As in research papers so is life. Large portions of data are discarded before the final revision.

Why do you refuse to provide a simple web link? :shrug:

Signed by President Clinton on October 25, 1994, the DSHEA acknowledges that millions of consumers believe dietary supplements may help to augment daily diets and provide health benefits. Congress's intent in enacting the DSHEA was to meet the concerns of consumers and manufacturers to help ensure that safe and appropriately labeled products remain available to those who want to use them. In the findings associated with the DSHEA, Congress stated that there may be a positive relationship between sound dietary practice and good health, and that, although further scientific research is needed, there may be a connection between dietary supplement use, reduced health-care expenses, and disease prevention.
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/dietsupp.html

would have the effect of "...suddenly jerking all supplements from store shelves, and putting them behind the pharmacist's counter and requiring a prescription"? Please include in your answer why supplements are still quite widely available even though it is now 15 years AFTER its passage.

which ensured that didn't happen.

You fellows tend to misconstrue "evidence" as "conclusion".
Most things require mental processing, if you indeed seek understanding.
I perceive very little evidence to indicate that you are involved in such a search.

ps. I note that the Codex convos have been moved to 911.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I perceive very little evidence to indicate that you are involved in such a search.

Why should I be? You're the one who made the statement, you're required to back it up. I'm not your research lackey.

I'd like to understand the claim you made. But you don't want to (or, as is patently obvious, cannot) support it. Why don't you just retract it and save yourself further embarrassment?

Your claim: "Bills enforcing exactly that have been defeated or fallen along the wayside."

To support that claim you cite a bill that passed and was signed by the President.

Your citation does not support your claim.

You fellows tend to misconstrue "evidence" as "conclusion".
Most things require mental processing, if you indeed seek understanding.
I perceive very little evidence to indicate that you are involved in such a search.

You were incorrect at least once.

And you still haven't supported your claim that such bills have failed.

Keep digging.

Didn't ask you to be a "nannie" or have to educate me - I just wanted a link. Very easy request. Should have been quite simple for someone who's "kept up with these events for 30 years."

My guess is that you got snookered by the Codex Alimentarius silliness and the associated panic among the supplement pushers over it.

I'm not your nannie. Maybe someone else will educate you. :rofl:

Comes from blogs on websites that push neutriceuticals as cure-alls? If this is a genuine controversy, where is the peer-reviewed research?

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That's an excerpt from your citation labeled #5

Citing studies that don't support your point is considered bad form.

But citing studies that CONTRADICT your point is really foolish. Did you think no one would check?

you could point to exactly which cite reinforces the "controversy"? Because right in that list, #5, refers to "the end of the controversy". A little confusing.

And this was a thread started by the 0fer18 guy.

You established my point before I could get back to it. :toast:

be.

http://www.cholestoff.com/faq.asp


Q. What are plant sterol and stanols and how do they work to lower cholesterol?
A. Phytosterols and phytostanols are found naturally in plants. Because their molecular structure is similar to that of cholesterol they decrease absorption of cholesterol, both from foods and from reabsorption of cholesterol made in the liver and secreted into the intestines.

Sterols and stanols are recommended as part of the NIH’s TLC (Therapeutic Lifestyle Changes) Diet. The TLC diet recommends:

* Limiting the amount of saturated fat and cholesterol you eat.
* Eating only enough calories to achieve or maintain a healthy weight.
* Increasing the soluble fiber in your diet. For example, oatmeal, kidney beans, and apples are good sources of soluble fiber.
* Adding cholesterol-lowering food, such as margarines that contain plant sterol or stanol esters that lower cholesterol for some people.


A.

1. Beer, Michael. "To Determine the Effect of Increasing Doses of Tall Oil Derived phytosterols (Phytrol) on the Plasma Lipid Levels of Hypercholesterolemic Patients". Novartis Consumer Health & Forbes Meditech. November 14, 2000.
2. de Graaf J., "Consumption of tall oil-derived phytosterols in a chocolate matrix significantly decreases plasma total and low-density lipoprotein-cholesterol levels". British Journal of Nutrition, Volume 88, Number 5, November 2002, pp. 479-488(10).
3. Jones, Peter JH. "Cholesterol-lowering efficacy of a sitostanol-containing phytosterol mixture with a prudent diet in hyperlipidemic men1,2,3". American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 69, No. 6, 1144-1150, June 1999. (http://intl.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/69/6/1144.)
4. Jones, P.J.."Plant sterols are efficacious in lowering plasma LDL and non-HDL cholesterol in hypercholesterolemic type 2 diabetic and nondiabetic persons1,2,3,4". American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 81, No. 6, 1351-1358, June 2005. (http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/81/6/1351)
5. Yoshida. "Additive effect of plant sterols and glucomannan in lowering low-density lipoprotein cholesterol in individuals with and without type 2 diabetes". Forbes Medi-Tech.

Where's the controversy?

It just leads to embarrassment like your "0-fer-18" debacle. :rofl:

Did I miss it?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I'll be back in a bit.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Bookmarked and quote-mined for reference.

I also loved the sublink to this post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=222&topic_id=35375#35442

:applause:

two deleted post in the same thread.

Oh well. I thought he had me on ignore.

Oh well, I guess school's out for tonight, thanks cd!

Glad he got you the link. Absolutely hilarious.

Even when you use it to beat them about the head or rub their nose in it.

That's why we have archives. :)