Let's talk about homocysteine now

Since I also had that tested recently. Turns out my level (10 mcm/l) is either good or not good, depending on which source I use for info. Traditional sources suggest that normal levels are between 5-15, but others suggest that anything over 6-7 is bad.

If you know anything about HC, does the info on this page seem reliable:

http://www.lifeextensionvitamins.com/homred.html

If they're doctors or medical organizations, I'd take that advice over a website with a name like Life Extension Vitamins that attempts to redefine everything so that it's a problem, then offer you "cures" for those new problems.

Just my .02.

and so does the literature

(just for reference, this is the same doctor who thought vitamin D levels of 30 were absolutely fine too. WRONG.)

...you might want to reconsider the source.

I am *always* talking about PubMed.

The fact that some supplement providers may use such sources is something I also take note of.

Considering the link you started this thread with, I'm not convinced, however. And such sites do tend to misconstrue studies.

Oh, and you certainly missed this little tidbit: http://www.ajkd.org/article/PIIS0272638608000449/fulltext

And a bit more: http://blogs.webmd.com/cholesterol-management/2009/09/elevated-homocysteine-cardiovascular-risk-factor-or-hype.html

And a bit more: http://holfordwatch.info/2008/05/07/polypills-or-vitamins-for-homocysteine-and-cardiovascular-risks-the-hype-is-ahead-of-the-evidence/

At this point, you are clearly jumping to conclusions that don't match the current state of the science.

But, I'd trust a highly trained professional over my own "googleized" knowledge base.

I applaud you for challenging the status quo, but keep in mind that unregulated industries aren't necessarily giving you good advise either, especially if they have a profit motive. Approach their statements with the skepticism that you have towards your doctor's advise.

just because someone is a so-called "highly trained professional."

Until I told him, my doctor didn't even know what trimethylglycine was, and there's plenty of published research (peer reviewed) available.

So, no, frankly, I'll listen to him but I will always double check.

Your doctor is highly trained, but that doesn't mean he knows everything, like what trimethylglycine is. A cursory look shows that it has a fairly small number of uses, and it's not reasonable to assume he's know everything about every medical topic. What you should expect is that if there's something he doesn't know, and you've brought it up, he should do his due diligence and research it. Since he knows your specific conditions, and has a high level of training, he should be able to make a determination of the efficacy of a specific course of treatment better than an online supplement supplier.

The medical world is gargantuan, and not everyone can be Dr. House. :)

Of course I don't expect him to know everything and my experience with docs is that they wait until something is really firmly established in the literature before they start paying attention to it.

Well. Except for when they get most of their post-graduate medical training from pharmaceutical reps, then they are very quick to adopt.

My experience with living for YEARS (decades?) with vitamin D deficiency has given me personal experience with why I must do my own homework and just use my doc as a sounding board and someone to write scripts and order tests.

:thumbsup:

I would expect him to be able to answer my question:

"So is homocysteine a marker or a direct participant" (so I would know whether reducing levels of homocysteine is meaningful)

but he didn't know the answer (and to be fair, the literature is all over the map on this too--but that's not why he didn't know, I just think he never asked himself the question)

He knows my background, he knows I can read (and write) scientific literature and how to conduct and evaluate experiments, so he knows better than to bluff me.

That's actually refreshing. There are some doctors that if they haven't heard of it it's immediately discounted. My doctor suggested 2,000 IU's of Vitamin D per day in the winter to help with my Seasonal Adjustment Disorder (SAD). It was effective for me - I work in a windowless office and during the winter I rarely see the sun to get my natural Vitamin D. I didn't feel as good as I do in the summer, but it was better than winters in the past.

Doctor's in the US are wary of malpractice suits, so they often go with the "established" protocol for treatments. There's far less risk involved that way. It's unfortunate, but I don't see a way to hold doctor's accountable without allowing for malpractice suits, while still giving them the okay to sometimes work outside the mainstream treatments. In your situation, where the literature is all over the map, it's hard for a doctor to go with "treatment A" or "treatment B", simply because the contradictions in the literature may be making them uneasy about what, if anything, actually works.

The evidence just isn't in, and thus docs aren't going to be spending their evenings studying every undetermined arena.

Life Extension is very reputable imo - I have used several of their products over the years and have gotten good results.

The supplements they listed in the homocysteine article are the typical alternatives to drugs.

I'm going to start taking trimethylglycine (in addition to the high dose B complex I already take).

Homocysteine is not just a marker, it's involved in damage, directly. So, reducing levels can only be good, imho.

However, it's going to be good info to know.

A first run through seems to indicate that while CVD and stroke are associated with elevated Hcy, reducing Hcy via vitamin supplements *may* have an effect on stroke incidence, but so far none with CVD.

Which means there is more going on.

But, Hcy seems to be directly involved in oxidative stress, which is ALWAYS bad, so anything that reduces blood levels of Hcy has got to be good, imho.

I need to find out what causes elevated homocysteine.

In the meantime, I want to reduce my levels by about half.

I wonder how long before I should have my homocysteine tested again.

The TMG acts as a methyl donor in the conversion of homocysteine to methionine (which can then be converted to S-adenosyl-methionine, SAMe). The TMG, after it loses the methyl, becomes DMG, dimethylglycine. Free homocysteine in the blood can be very damaging to blood vessels, which is why it's used as a marker for risk for stroke and CVD.

There are reports about TMG being a potential treatment for autism spectrum. That's interesting.

Anybody out there taking TMG?