You don't need medication to treat your Attention Deficit Disorder.

For an example of a controlled study see:
http://www.idealu.com/add/comparisonEEG.pdf

Also see http://members.aol.com/eegspectrm/articles/faq.htm

Biofeedback reached it's pinnacle in the late 70's.
It is not nearly promoted enough and needs to re-enter the discourse.

It's my personality...people trying to sell drugs want us to believe it's a disorder.

Ever Read Thom Hartmann on the topic?

Wow learn something new every day.

I've been ADD my entire life... even back when it was only discribed as 'spirited.' LOL!

In any event, I have learned to live with what I've been given and... dammit... I don't want a drug which is going to mask part of who/what I truly am. I do fly off on tangents. I do get obsessed with one thing... then another... then a third... maybe a fourth... before I come back to square one with renewed vigor.

What I cannot imagine is going through my entire childhood with this part of my personality held at bay by pharmaceuticals only to be weaned off the pills and *then* having to learn how to live with myself (in lieu of fighting against myself).

ADD definitely has its own potholes, but it also has some very scenic drives. ;)

Lots of people who can't tell a joke to save their lives nonetheless think that they're great joke-tellers. Many schizophrenics likewise self-diagnose as being free of any disorder. In the end, it's difficult for the individual to evaluate him- or herself when the organ used to formulate the diagnosis is the very same organ being diagnosed.

In point of fact, ADD is a disorder as defined by current understanding of the condition. If a person with the condition has sufficiently actualized it to live a happy and/or satisfying life without medication, then that's excellent, of course! But to claim outright that it is not a disorder is a disservice to those who have not yet achieved that same actualization and who may benefit greatly from medication.

Perhaps a better way to make the point is to say that ADD is not a behavioral disorder; it is an organic disorder stemming in part from neurochemical malfunction.

I don't understand why ADD seems to be uniquely singled out and labeled "non-existent." When asked, the same people who deny the existence of ADD, usually accept the existance of bipolar, schizophrenia, and other diagnoses.

I just don't get it.

Perhaps they just can't imagine what it's like

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=8999&mesg_id=9029

She's had some improvements from the biofeedback - at least that's what her mother thinks. I think this technique has promise. We've tried on several occasions to stop the Concerta, but she still bounces off the walls without it. I'd like to try it myself...

a natural alternative. Just started him on this about 3 weeks ago. He's never been on any prescribed medication for ADD but I really see improvement with these vitamins.

I'll have to check this out - we've tried vitamins before (& diet changes) with no real success, but I'm willing to give anything a shot. She seems happy to have the Concerta for now given a choice - but at some point I hope a combination of things (including just getting older) will allow her move on.

If she's happy on Concerta, I wouldn't try to change it.

Here's my experience (post below). Had I been treated from childhood, I would have been spared decades of grief.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=8999&mesg_id=9029

and you give me an 18-page study loaded with medical technojargon to read? What the hell is wrong with you. I couldn't make it past the first paragraph.

i was so bored i'm not sure i remember any more what i was trying to accomplish, too many years gone by, i think it was supposed to allow me to sleep more deeply and control chronic pain, it did feck-all for the pain, i do remember that

can't imagine a true ADHD patient having the patience to make this work but what do i know?

Neurofeedback is a subclass of biofeedback. Some protocols, e.g. treatments for anxiety, involve decreasing arousal & cortical activity. Others, such as that for ADHD, generally involve increasing activation. Boredome has always been a major issue for techniques aimed at increasing brainwave activity. A varety of new methods, such as using movies for the feedback signal, are now being used to combat this problem.

. . has a long history and a proven record of safety.

Countless women, like myself, who do not tend to display the hyperactivity that is seen in boys, have suffered and struggled for decades, undiagnosed and misdiagnosed, self-medicating with caffeine and cigarettes, undergoing treatment for depression. Undergoing cognitive behavioral therapy, because it must all be habit and experience. . . And yes, even undergoing bio-feedback. . .

When I was finally properly diagnosed, and PROPERLY treated with DRUGS (yeah, those evil drugs), it was a miracle.

Are some children (mainly boys) people being misdiagnosed and treated?

Sure.

Should stimulants be prescribed lightly?

Of course not.

Unfortunately, from my side of the fence, the stigma is palatable and the belief that an adult who takes Ritalin, Dexedrine, Adderall, or Desoxyn is doing a bad and wrong thing and should stop seems to be nearly universal among the general public.

I hate to think that there are others who may not be getting the treatment they need because the treatment is viewed so negatively.

I had the same type of experience, and after being prescribed a stimulant, my entire life felt suddenly...manageable! But now that every worn out soccer mom is running to her doc for Adderall, it's become the new "mother's little helper", which takes away from the fact that they really help those in need. And trust me, if you get a kick out of your ADD meds, rather than suddenly feeling in control, you probably don't need them! :toast:

See post below.

Perhaps someone reading this thread who thinks ADD doesn't exist, or shouldn't ever be treated with stimulants, will begin to "get it."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=8999&mesg_id=9029

Thank you. Medication is indeed very safe and appropriate for ADHD. It also has 70+ years of research to back up its effectiveness. I don't think there are many other drugs on the market with that much research to support them.

As for biofeedback, there is little credible scientific support for its effectiveness on patients with ADHD.

See my journal for my personal story of dealing with ADHD in my family.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/proud2Blib/1

medicine at one time or another, and none of them worked...not to mention the fact that many of them have no data on long term effects, and many have truly terrifying side effects. Then I finally get the right diagnosis, and lose the label that my high school guidance counselor gave me..."gifted underachiever" (almost Rovian in it's creepiness isn't it?), and my life turns around!

negative press on stimulant meds? They started their campaign back in the 80s. It sure is discouraging to see their negative anti-stimulants talking points here on DU.

Glad to hear you are doing well. It is so easy to treat ADD. Too bad too many people don't realize that.

Try to imagine. . .
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=8999&mesg_id=9029

. . . like you, who are fighting against the devastating stigma.



The thing that so many people fail to understand is the overwhelming shame and frustration people with this "non-existent" disorder experience.

Here's my shot at trying to convey it: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=8999&mesg_id=9029

I can function with or without. I function better with them. It doesn't hide any of my personality and my friends can vouch for it. I'd rather take my speed in the morning and go about my day better.

ADD (or ADHD or whatever the term du jour is) are bonafide medical conditions? As opposed to big-pharma/blame-anything-but-oneself-population constructs?

Is there pretty much unanimity in the MD community about it? (I just don't know a lot of doctors - I have no feel for what their take on the reality of such "conditions" is).

It has an extensive listing in the DSM.

go back to the dark ages where ADD was considered something to "blame oneself" for. Although it may now be over-diagnosed in some cases, in others it's still difficult to pinpoint, especially in the less hyperactive form. I believe that one day this constellation of brain function issues will be better understood and hopefully renamed, as ADD is not attention deficit, but more like attention inconsistency...and certain types can have some very obsessive qualities, or over-attention. I'm not sure I see it as always a clear "disorder" at this point...although if ADD gets in the way of successful functioning in life, then I'm certainly in favor of methods to try to control it.

The Thom Hartmann books are very positive for those who see this type of brain functioning as manageable and perhaps even positive at times. (I think he argues that ADD types take to the computer age like fish). He has a theory that Americans do have a higher incidence of ADD than other cultures. Sometimes its hard to sort out what part of that behavior is stimulated by the culture.

There is also some interesting information about brain imaging and ADD on the www.amenclinics.com
website.

Dr. Amen breaks the various different forms of ADD down according to their link to hyperactivity in different parts of the brain.

Dr. Daniel Amen trained at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, DC., also in California.
* Dr. Amen has pioneered the use of brain imaging in clinical psychiatric practice.
* His clinics have the world's largest database of functional brain scans for neuropsychiatry.
* Dr. Amen and his clinics are experts in the use of both medication and natural supplements to optimize brain function.
* Dr. Amen has won writing and research awards from the American Psychiatric Association, the US Army and the Baltimore-DC Institute for Psychoanalysis.
* Amen Clinics have seen patients from 37 different countries.

--------------------

I am looking at how my own family fits the ADD constellation. My mom is ADD, My Dad is not. My mother used the old coffee & cigarettes method of self-treatment, until she developed emphysema (ritalin would have been safer). One of my mother's brothers fits the type and one of his sons has greatly benefitted from ritalin. Of my siblings, one of my sisters exhibits the classic "drifty" form of ADD and one the more over-obsessive type. I relate differently to these sisters--I try to loosen up with the obsessive one and tighten up & focus with the drifty one. :) Being the child of an ADD mother gave me some first-hand experience with this...and I'm sure I fit on the scale somewhere myself, though not in the extreme, more like my Dad in personality. Each of my sisters has a son who registers high for classic ADD characteristics. All of these people are successful human beings, functional in society and all that. But all have had issues with it and have devised adaptive measures to cope. For example my nephew in college has a friend in one class who calls him on his cell phone before a test --as my nephew has been known to study & be completely prepared for a test, but forget to go take it (!?!)

So I think that this runs in families and is a very distinctive group of behavioral manefestations linked to certain forms of brain hyperactivity.

. . .and self-hatred, getting it from outside is just salt on a the wound. I wish the "just get over it" people would "just get over" their judgmental and damaging beliefs about ADD.

BTW. ADD and Bipolar are often seen in the same family -- even in the same person.

There is definitely a cluster/continuum of things going on. Two people with the same diagnosis -- ADHD, or Bipolar I, or Bipolar II -- may have very different experiences of it, which can make it all seem hard to pin down. But hard to pin down does not mean "doesn't exist." (I've been noticing similar "doesn't exist" assertions about the Bipolar II diagnosis recently.)

It may be hard to divvy up the symptoms into neat little boxes, but there is NO DOUBT about the existence of a cluster of VERY identifiable -- and very devastating -- symptoms.

The symptoms can be so evident that, once properly diagnosed, it is hard to understand how it was missed.

Tragically, it is the effects of the struggle that send people to the doctor -- so they talk about the shame, frustration, imobilization, instead of the things they are struggling with. They get treated for the depression -- the effects of the struggle -- not the symptoms that cause the struggle itself.

When a patient talks about everything "feeling so hard," hating themselves, feeling horrible, it doesn't seem to occur to many doctors that everything feels hard for a REASON. Things ARE harder when you are losing things every two seconds, lose self-awareness when you interact with others, get overwhelmed and can't seem to prioritize -- and just get immobilized when you have more than one thing to do. And, as you note, when the hyperactivity is absent, it just isn't on the diagnostic radar.

Here's my shot at conveying what it is like:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=8999&mesg_id=9029

about Dr. Amen's theories?

Glad to hear you are doing so much better :grouphug:

ADD is real and I have 4 adult friends who have benefitted from treatment as you have. So I've seen it.

But to imply that it is the treatment option for everybody, and that nobody needs medications is shortsighted and irresponsible.

entities. some may want to know WHY instead of just doing as their told. Who would have thunk it.

Drugs aren't for everyone, but those that are helped by them are helped A LOT. As the parent of a son with ADHD, I have direct experience with this.

. . . that anyone argues against treatment.

Of all the ways that our brain chemicals can apparently go out of whack, when ADHD is properly diagnosed and treated, it is often like flipping a switch.

The symptoms, and the effects of treatment with a stimulant, are so pronounced in so people that I can't fathom those who tell us to get off the meds, or that we don't actually have a diagnosable condition.

I just don't get it.

Here's my shot at letting people who think "there ain't no such thing" know how harmful their attitude can be: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=8999&mesg_id=9029

The first day I started meds, my husband asked "Do you want to go for a walk?" while I was doing some straightening up.

My response -- looking up, thinking a moment, and calmly saying "Sure" -- may not sound surprising to anyone else, but whenever he suggested some "unplanned" activity -- something as simple as going for a walk or going to the grocery store -- he had come to expect me to look distressed, confused, "short-circuited." I might end up doing the thing, but only after sputtering as the new thing got added to the mix.

More often than not, I would have snapped back something like "I can't think about that right now!" because the simple suggestion of something not already rattling around with all the other stuff in my head felt overwhelming -- like the straw the broke the camel's back.

Most people take the ability to easily shift from one activity to another for granted, but for me, "getting started" on a task took ages. But once started, doing anything else -- stopping to eat, feed the dog -- got put off and put off (in a minute, in a minute, just one more thing) often to the point of exhaustion.

Everyone experiences procrastination, but I don't know if most people can get what it's like for someone whose every moment is a struggle with procrastination (I'll let the dog out in a minute, I'll get started on the dishes in a minute, I'll go to the gym tonight).

I don't know if most people can imagine the devastating shame and frustration that goes along with being unable to get done the things you want to get done. Or what it feels like to give up on ever being able to predict whether or not you'll be able to follow through on your intentions -- knowing that you are letting the people around you down.

I don't know if most people can imagine how much of your life can be lost to looking for things ("It was right here a minute ago!"). Or how stupid you feel when you find the milk going sour in the cabinet.

I'm sure most people have occasionally walked into a room and suddenly can't remember why they are there, but try to imagine what it would feel like to have it happen at least twice a day. When the simple act of getting a cup of coffee can take 30 minutes because every time you get into the kitchen, you find yourself doing something else, completely forgetting that you meant to get a cup of coffee until you get back to your desk.

Now it is almost hard to recall what it was like, but the sense of shame that followed every meeting or social event used to be unbearable -- knowing I had blurted out some asinine thing, or kept interrupting others when I had sworn, sworn to myself that this time I would just listen and keep my mouth shut and "be there."

If you've every woken up feeling ashamed of yourself for drinking too much and "making a fool of yourself," you've had a taste of what it feels like. Try to imagine what it is like for someone whose loss of self-awareness in the presence of a group leaves them feeling the same way -- after EVERY social event, presentation, or meeting.

Try to imagine how terrible it is when someone you love lets you know how un-cared about and unloved they feel because, once again, you've been "off somewhere," completely engrossed in some project, for who knows how long.

If you are beginning to get the picture

. . .try to imagine what it is like to take a drug and have things suddenly come into focus; to have a sense of self-awareness; to be able to follow through on your intentions; to finally understand that you are not just a lazy, crazy, careless, or thoughtless person.

In my previous post, when I said it was a miracle, I meant it. There is no other way to describe the transformation.

Now, try to imagine what it feels like to be told what you have experienced doesn't exist -- that it isn't a disorder.

Try to imagine what it feels like to be told that the medication that transformed your life, which has perhaps the longest history of safety of anything on the market, should be banned.

The incredible damage done by people who have no idea what it is like, and who tell people who are struggling with ADD that they don't need drugs, that they can "cure" themselves if they jsut apply themselves, is almost unimaginable.

You described it perfectly.

or simply sensitive to High Fructose Corn Syrup*, HFCS*.., many of the ADD type disorders are misdiagnosed do to the means of diagnosis.. i actually had an orthopedist diagnose me from a simple list of symptoms.. there is much more to a REAL diagnosis than a short list of broad symptoms published in a popular magazine.

HFCS can really mess up your Steratonin levels, it is also statistically proved to be the cause of a lot of Obesity.. the Fructose turns into fat not glucose and your brain center that tells you that you have eaten enough is shut down.. so sense you have low glucose levels after eating it you get ravenously hungry and you dont know when to stop eating and everything you eat is turned into fat. just Google; High Fructose Corn Syrup Obesity

rats in the FDA tests had problems with HFCS, the male rats testicles didn't mature and the hearts of female rats continued to grow till they exploded.. within a few years of HFCS being put in nearly everything you ear childhood obi city went up over 15%, it is also associated with Diabetes.
and dont think the government would protect us from something that sells so much junk food and soft drinks. literally billions are made by HFCS being more stable than styrofoam.. food can be stored for ever. i would like to know if this stuff is recycling in the drinking water like progesterone..if you live in a city that recycles sewer water into drinking water, things like progesterone from birth control pills can end up in the drinking water.. and accumulate.

if you haven't taken a battery of tests and perhaps a pet scan you may not have ADD.

DON'T TAKE STRATTERA..! without doing some research! http://www.laleva.org/eng/2006/01/eli_lillys_and_christopher_gillbergs_failed_experiment_with_strattera.html

google: Strattera failed antidepressant

12 year old children are committing suicide on that crap, i got suicidal and it was really really speedy, very uncomfortable

http://www.wrongplanet.net for aspergers info

I couldn't tell from your brief statement whether the orthopedist diagnosed you with ADD or with Asperger's, but from the context I suspect the former. And you're right--there's more to diagnosis that completing a checklist of symptoms from a magazine, and that goes for ADD, Asperger's, and pretty much any other range of symptoms with more than one possible cause.

But why would you allow an orthopedist to diagnose any neurological condition? Isn't that like having a carpenter diagnose the wiring of your home? She might be a great wood-worker, but her training doesn't give her any special knowledge of electrical systems.

It would, parenthetically, be like a dentist diagnosing complex and subtle issues of toxicity and neuropathology...

on edit: I'd quibble with your subject line, now that I think about it:
'Lots' of people with ADD, etc etc actually have Aspergers Syndrome

It would be more accurate to say simply that some people diagnosed with ADD, etc etc might actually be misdiagnosed.

Asperger's syndrome is a spectrum phenomenon with a broad range of symptoms and manifestations and is at least as vulnerble to misdiagnosis as any other subtle neurological condition. It's somewhat irresponsible to dismiss one diagnosis based on a popular magazine while summarily assigning a contestable diagnosis to a host of conditions with a widely varying degree of overlap with Asperger's.

Aspirer's and HF CS..

i have a certified IQ of 164 but a literacy level of 6th grade on a good day.. unless it is scientific technical material.

the point is that I was misdiagnosed by a doctor pushing Straiter.. we are fairly friendly, i have talked to him in specific technical language about my physical problems, i was a biologist and am knowledgeable about what is bothering me and its latin name.. he suggested it, he knows about my 'condition'.. a am also fairly intimidated by doctors and have an inclination to do what i can to help out my wife. she is just beginning to understand my non-Neurologically Traditional view. i wanted to grasp for straws for her.. i dont particularly want to change my perceptual format. I wont do it again, it was a nightmare.

my wife has had 6 or 8 seizures.. really scary, her face gets vermilion and her lips white, her arms come up to her shoulders palms our fists clinched white, her elbows close to her ribs.. she gets rigid and seizures with her breath seriously pressurizing.. her doctors dont know what causes it.. which flashed red lights for me, probably diet.. i have heard on the internet the some people have similar seizures after consuming too much HFCS.. i am in the process of chasing them down to get more specific information.. it happens after a cough.

we need to figure a lot of this stuff out for ourselves, there is too much special interest and BIG money to get any sort of real research done on it. and just try to find something without HFCS in it.

sometimes i dont have a lot of time to go over and over something to get it NT acceptable, sorry.

but thanks for being polite..
:pals: