Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Dozenalism (Base 12) number system

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Science Donate to DU
 
pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 12:51 AM
Original message
Dozenalism (Base 12) number system
Did we go horribly wrong when we settled on the Base 10 numeral system back in the Middle Ages?

A Base 12 system has many advantages and is the reason we have:
12 inches in a foot
12 ounces in a pound (troy)
12 pence in a shilling
12 items in a dozen
12 dozen in a gross
12 hours in a day

Twelve has twice as many non trivial divisors as does ten.
10: 2, 5
12: 2, 3, 4, 6

Twice the factors means twice as easy.

There would more repeating patterns in the multiplication table. Multiplying by 2, 3, 4, or 6 would be as easy as multiplying by 2 or 5 in decimal.

The five most elementary fractions (1⁄4, 1/3, 1/2, 2⁄3, 3⁄4 would all have short terminating representations: 0.3, 0.4, 0.6, 0.8, 0.9 respectively.

Many more arguments (along with some interesting history) here:
http://www.dozenalsociety.org.uk/pdfs/aitken.pdf">The case against the system of decimalization
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. OOOO. I LIKE it. Let's change. Right now. I mean it. Seriously. NT
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Sounds good. I'm right there with ya.......But,
how do we get the old-fashioned people to get with the program?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
25. Easy. Genetic engineering. Give everybody 12 fingers instead of 10. NT
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
2. we would need two more numerals
where would we get them?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Crop circles. Maybe that's what they are telling us, anyway.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. Speaking of crop circles
That recent circle in the UK that encoded the first few digits of pi... I would have been really impressed had the "aliens" used Base 12 or some other system.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Yeah, I thought that, too. Does it mean the aliens have ten fingers, too?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Not only do they have ten digits
they also use the ellipsis to represent omitted digits. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. There have been suggestions




No argument for the eleven. The rotated three is as different from 3 as 6 is from 9.

Using the Roman symbol X for ten is problematic as it's an operator for multiplication in arithmetic and a common variable in algebra.

I favor the rotated 2 as it sorta looks like a script T, T for ten.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. that diagram makes me think we should go to eleven
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. Rotated two looks awful seven-ish.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. But so can the numeral 1
I generally strike my handwritten sevens with a single line already: 7.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
3. Unfortunately, the Metric System is based on powers of 10. That's the biggest roadblock to this.
Aside from that, there are some interesting arguments as far as pattern recognition goes. My mind can grasp six objects better than five, simply because the third object is not really sitting with the first grouping of objects or the last grouping but is simply in the middle. With six objects, I can simply visualize two groups of three objects together.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. A dozenal metric system would rock
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Your mind needs to grasp a grouping of 12, instead of 10.
Edited on Mon Jul-21-08 01:52 AM by quantessd
My mind, as well. I have often wondered why 10 has such great power. And math is not my greatest talent.

I passed Trigonometry, College Algebra 2, and Graduate Statistics. My only point in saying that, is to let people know that I'm not a random crackpot.

Edit to say I passed these classes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Yeah, I got up to Calculus 4 and Linear Algebra, but that was before switching majors.
The math wasn't the problem with me because at that level, I was already using a graphing calculator to do the raw math, while my mind was concentrating on applying the rules. It becomes more of an issue at the more basic levels of calculations, though, when you are not allowed a calculator at all. As far as things like chemistry or physics went, I tended to agree more with the Metric system as opposed to the Imperial System that the US uses, although I can imagine base 12 being as effective if not more so to mentally picture.

The only problem would be inventing the other two symbols to represent the 11th and 12th number and incorporating it mentally into a new number line in my head.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. It's so funny to me.
Edited on Mon Jul-21-08 01:38 AM by quantessd
Everything would change, if the 10s suddenly became 12s.

Edit to say, I hope you know what I meant.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. I blame the Church
Back in the fifteenth century, they switched from Roman numerals to a positional system that they got from the Arabs who had gotten it from the Hindus. That was a huge improvement and helped lead us to the Renaissance. But it would have been a great time to adopt Base 12. I suppose Ten was just too ingrained, ten fingers, etc. And since we are made in G-d's image... To that I say to the Church: what about the twelve apostles?

There are/were other systems out there. The Sumerians (Zuul, Gozer :)) used Base 60 four thousand years ago. Sixty has the same factors as Twelve as well as 5, 10, 15, 20, 30. The minute and second hand on our clocks are base 60. The downside to a Base 60 number system would be memorizing a multiplication table with 3600 squares!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hubert H. Hubert Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
7. Pffftt. Octal is 1750 times better. {nt}
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
21. LOL! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
14. The only people who care about this are people who don't know any math....
To the rest of us, modular arithmetic is modular arithmetic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. But would you really want to work in say, Base 7?
It's handy having a positional number system with lots of small factors.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
22. We'd be paying less per gallon of gas, too. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
23. Isn't that the way computers are coded -- hexadecimal -- for that reason?
Edited on Mon Jul-21-08 08:11 AM by HamdenRice
Back in the prehistoric era, I took courses in programming -- Fortran IV with Watfor. We had a little exposure to "machine language," and were told that computers use binary, but that the binary is aggregated in "hexidecimal," ie a base 12 number system.

Any computer heads know if this is still true?

On edit: Never mind, I see it's base 16. I must remember to wiki before writing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
24. I see somebody's been reading their Leo Frankowski...
:-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. I had to google that
No, I forget when I first learned about base 23, but that recent crop circle in the UK got me thinking about it. Next stop, wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Oh, okay
He had an entire system worked out based on the local lord's "yard", the measure from his fingertip to his turned-away nose.

That's where I first heard about it! :-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
caraher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
27. I'm glad I'm not the only one
Since I was maybe 8 I've thought it a shame we didn't have one more digit on each hand if it would have meant a base 12 number system..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Base 12 finger math
You have three phalanges on each of your four fingers for a total of twelve. You can even count them using the thumb of the same hand.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
28. Interesting ideas
Personally, though, I would favor hexidecimal, or base 16.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. hex would be little better than decimal
Non trivial factors:
Base 10: 2, 5
Base 16: 2, 4, 8
Base 12: 2, 3, 4, 6
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. I was thinking about the tech-driven society and all n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Yeah, but it's easier to make computers speak our language
than vice versa. There's really no essential advantage to binary, octal or hex. Its only divisor is two and its multiples.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
34. This is EXACTLY why the Babylonians used base sixty.
All fractions with 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 in the denominator also terminate quickly!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. The major downside to Base 60
would the 60x60 multiplication table.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 30th 2024, 05:10 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Science Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC