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Is the Celtic Cross a navigation instrument?

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Papa Donating Member (505 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 09:37 AM
Original message
Is the Celtic Cross a navigation instrument?
I've been reading a website by an Author and Navigator named Crichton E M Miller. He claims that the Celtic Cross and other Crosses were instruments used by the ancients to build, navigate, and keep time.

<snip>
"Crichton E M Miller discovered that the Celtic cross was really a combination of a wheel, a measure and a plumb line, he patented the instrument and then began to unlock the mysteries that have baffled Mankind for generations.


Crichton E M Miller has rediscovered the reason the cross was of such importance to our ancestors. The working cross had allowed them to measure the earth and the stars, design pyramids, keep time and navigate the oceans of the world with simple astronomy and geometry.

The cross is the only form of instrument that could enable our ancient ancestors to build civilisations that lasted for thousands of years because what they observed and how they did it, allowed them to understand the awesome powers of Nature, cause and effect, order and chaos and the recurring cycles of Time."
<snip> http://www.crichtonmiller.com/revelation.htm



When he came to this realization he patented a working Celtic cross which can be used for navigation, time keeping and, and building structures. Everything I'm reading at this site makes perfect sense and seems plausible but It would be great if someone who knows more than I do in regards to Astronomy or Archeology (or experience with Navigation equipment or doing site surveys) could look at this site and point out any glaring errors or poke some holes in it.



One of the other interesting things that stuck in my head after reading this stuff was that he thinks he knows what tools the Egyptians used as far as surveying and aligning the pyramids. Inside the queens chamber when the first shaft was opened there was found a stone ball, a double brass hook, and a shaft or rod with markings indicating cubit units . He was able to construct an instrument that had the same degree of accuracy (3 arc minutes)that the pyramids exhibit.

I hope some of you find this interesting and thought provoking.


http://www.crichtonmiller.com
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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. Very interesting - like you I'm curious to see how realistic this is
My question is, if this was a tool widely used, presumably made of stone or metal, then why haven't archaeologists found one or even notable evidence of a "working" celtic cross?
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Papa Donating Member (505 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Maybe because they were made of wood
Edited on Tue Nov-30-04 10:50 AM by Papa
and that the knowledge was "secret" even in those days. Knowledge was power. It's a good question however.

or, on the other hand, just because we havent found it does not mean that it didnt exist. Have you heard of the Antikythera Device? http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_4.htm

Only one (so far) of it's kind has been found and according to what we think we know about ancient history it should not exist. It's over 2,000 years old and is a mechanical device with gears that tracks celestial objects (maybe used for navigation).
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Would the Egyptian 'ankh' be a version of that? n/t
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Papa Donating Member (505 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Yes, I believe the author mentioned that as well.
If the author is right, it's pretty freaky how lot's of things tie into this.

It's thought by many that the shafts in the pyramid served the purpose for the soul to exit and find it's way. If the author is right in that the relics found inside the shaft are for surveying/navigation, then it makes sense that they would be in the shaft so the soul could use them to navigate to the heavens.

Then think about the cross and how you see it everywhere in cemeteries. Could the cross have been initially been used on graves so the soul would know how to "navigate" to the heavens?


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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. Crackpot.
Sure sign he's a crackpot

1) He 'patented' it. Reason? To make money of new-agers.
2) The blatent use of airbrushing on the images on his website. I can almost hear the music of 'Unsolved Mysteries' in the background.
3) Talks about 'forgotton wisdom of the ancients'. Thats one step away from atlantis baby!

Example of the crap on this site:
/*
How did our ancestors align these great Neolithic stone circles to measure the equinoxes, solstices and the lunar nodes in combination with the local topography?

To measure the 18.6 year cycles of the moon requires an accuracy of minutes of arc.
*/

Gee, if the circle is big enough, thats not to tough. Any old stick lying around and a bit of creativity should make this possible. Its not like the people of 4000 years ago had mashed potatoes for brains.

Here's another great line from his website:
/*
The cross is the only form of instrument that could enable our ancient ancestors to build civilisations that lasted for thousands of years because what they observed and how they did it, allowed them to understand the awesome powers of Nature, cause and effect, order and chaos and the recurring cycles of Time.
*/

Ah yes, the Egyption empire lasted thousands of years because of the celtic cross, and not the fact that they had a natural barrier of desert around them, a regular source of water & floods in the form of the nile to support a great agrarian economy, big spears and chariots as well a slavery? Oh no, that cant be it. It must be the celtic cross!

Now where did I put my crystals? Perhaps over by this ley line....
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Papa Donating Member (505 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Your argument of a crackpot does not sway me.....yet.
I did not see anything in your examples that shows he's a crackpot.

His site is not a new age site. He patented it to show that it WORKS. The cross can be used to navigate, tell time, survey, etc.. He has proven this beyond doubt. It's a FACT. The question should be now did the ancients actually use it for this purpose? As you said, they did not have mashed potatoes for brains. All they would need to make one of these things was two sticks, a piece of string and a ball....and a little creativity. How much simpler could it be? Just eyeing the moon with a stick as you say would not produce the astonishing accuracy that many of the ancienct temples and monuments exhibit.

You say there is blantant use of airbrushing? On what? The artwork? So what! What about the pictures he has? Are you saying those pictures are airbrushed too?

Forgotten wisdom of the ancients. you say there is no such thing right? Everything that ever will be known is known now? IF there is no such thing as forgotten wisdom of the ancients, how is that today we could not replicate the pyramids if we wanted to? Humans built them. If we can't replicate them today, that means we lost something or forgot how to do it....so there's something they knew back then that we don't know today.

Does the author really state or imply that the Egyptian empire lasted for thousands of years ONLY because of the cross? No. Did the cross contribute to their success and longevity? Maybe. If the Egyptians had built mud huts instead of Pyramids and temples, do you think they would have lasted thousands of years and had the impact on civilization and history that they do now? The deeper meaning here I think is that any civilization that lasts for eons lasts because of their knowledge, technology, and understanding of the universe.

What you say is that the Nile, the desert, and their isolation created these fantastic monuments? Let's be a little even handed here. Sure that contributed to their longevity, but how did they DO IT? Isolation wasn't the only reason. They had a superior level of technology. In the past many went to Egypt to LEARN. I would understand your position better if all this author had was only conjecture, but he has a working instrument and has research to back it up.
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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. You can patent anything whether it works or not
If you can patent ideas, apparently the efficacy of those ideas plays no part in the patent process at all. Why would it be any different for a physical object. The patent may cover design and use, but does not certify that the object being patented functions as it was intended.

That aside, it is definitely an interesting concept, but I do remain doubtful that these emblems were used in such a manner. We have access to loads of Egyptian writings with no mention of the use of the Ankh for navigation. We had Celtic peoples living in several continents and yet no evidence that the Celtic Cross was used as a nagivation device, despite the fact that there were active Celtic communities only 500-1000 years ago. That's in the modern era and yet no record exists of such a use for the Celtic Cross.

Call me skeptical, but intrigued.
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Well let me go into more detail....
I admit that my comment on airbrushing was just a cheap swipe. Much of the 'fashion sense' of the new age movement has that airbrushed look they picked up in the eighties and just never let go. A cheap shot and I admit it.

However, he is a crackpot because he takes a few simple concepts and a good idea and extrapolates an absurd web of reasoning to come up with some absurb conclusions. He had a set of beliefs, and went looking for something to use to 'prove' his beliefs. Backwards.

The first paragraph on his website is so inflammitory that I just can't take it. Lets break it down.

The oldest symbolic rock art is attributed to the early ancestors of modern Homo Sapiens found in caves along the coast of Africa over 150,000 years ago.


ok. Start with a simple, plain fact. This leads one into believing this site may be scientific


When we look at rock art from the Neolithic age through to the Egyptian and Celtic peoples we observe symbols that are largely universal but as yet undecipherable. Just because they appear undecipherable to us, does that really make them meaningless?


Ok, right on the second sentence we have a random, unverified claim. What are these symbols that are both universal yet undecipherable? Circles? Crosses? Squares? These things are fundamental geometry. We are hardwired to like these things. If not these symbols, then what are they?


Many of these symbols reveal clues to the eventual design of monuments that were aligned to the stars and therefore give us a practical insight into ancient minds.


WHAT? Come on, this is what I would normally call 'flaimbait'. Either a) he thinks building geometric structures is in some way unusual or b) cave people drawing on walls were actually designing stonehenge and the pyramids and it was all part of some master plan.
How have these symbols of lost knowledge become myths and dismissed by modern Man as just religion and how have the ancient constructions that we are unable to replicate become labelled as merely "Ceremonial"?


Would it be considered arrogance if we display in our linear Darwinian thinking, a disdain for the works of our ancestors and in our ignorance bestow upon them the name "Savage" ?


Ah yes, music to my ears. Attack modern society, disdain scientists as deluded self important 'experts', and phrased as a question that leads nicely into his sales plug. Could it be? Is it?....


If we want a practical explanation of their achievements so as to remove the mystery, we must first ask rational questions and then understand the resulting practical, rational and logical solutions.


Ah yes, enlighten us! Tell me more! Clearely your logic is brilliant. As you can see, his argument style is entertaining and superficially persuasive, but lacks the all important evidence.

I mean just listen to this:

So the rational question is:
"If accurate measurement is an unavoidable requirement, what instrument could they have used to perform this form of "science"?"
The answer:
Modern scientists still do not know.


WHAT? The answer: modern scientists do know! Its the same tools carpenters, masons and contruction companies use today. Levels, planes, saws, acid, chisels, fire, we still use these things. Constructions has changed very little. Oh sure the 'plumbing' is way more complicated but construction has not. We have some of the originals tools they used from archeological digs for crying out loud! I've been to museums and seen them with my own eyes. This statement of his is classic crackpot.

Now I dont deny that you could use this instrument of his as he says you could, but just because you can take one thing, modify it, and then use it for another purpose does not mean the original object was used for this purpose. You have to find evidence of the original object used in this way.

Heres another of his great crackpot statements (and I'm not even off the first page!)

The cross is the only form of instrument that could enable our ancient ancestors to build civilisations that lasted for thousands of years because what they observed and how they did it, allowed them to understand the awesome powers of Nature, cause and effect, order and chaos and the recurring cycles of Time.

The ONLY one? Gee-whiz. How did the cross allow them to 'understand the awesome powers of Nature' yadah, yadah, yadah. Crap statement. The sole purpose of this is inflamitory.

Heres something for you: If this cross was used to measure angles, then why for crying out loud are the angles not notched on the circle around the cross? Instead we have all that tangly stuff inside the cross and circle which seems a lot more confusing for measurement on the eyes. In fact I'd say the tratidional celtic cross is a fairly crappy device for measuring angles.

At this point I'd like to point out the celtic cross is not all that ancient. Its old, but not older than christianity. In fact, just so we can be clear, the cross isn't even the original symbol of christianity, even in breatonia. Its the Chi-Rho a weird P-X symbol. I suppose this also was used for navigation? I could stick a plum-line on it and build a house, by why not use a more tradition instument?

Just because you can conjecture something is used for a task, doesn't mean it was used for it. The 'ancients', who in reality are not all that ancient, did know how to do some things we didn't, but heres the kicker: quite often these ancient ways were lost because a better method came along. That, and slaveries demise as well as fair (or fairer at any rate) makes it very difficult to make giant stone thingies that serve no economic purpose.

Well, hope I helped to sway you. This guy may have a neat toy, but all his other ideas about the nature of history: crap.
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