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Poll: Would you volunteer for a trip to Mars if you knew you could never come back?

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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 08:28 PM
Original message
Poll question: Poll: Would you volunteer for a trip to Mars if you knew you could never come back?
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/15/mars_one_way_trips/

How to make boots on Mars affordable - One way trips

By Lewis Page • Get more from this author

Posted in Space, 15th November 2010 14:04 GMT

Nasuni Filer: Virtual Cloud File Server. Simply a Better NAS

One of the main limiting factors on a manned mission to Mars is the fact that, under normal assumptions, much of the stuff that travelled to the red planet would not be concerned with exploration but rather with bringing the crew back to Earth.

The solution? According to two scientists, it would make more sense for the first humans to set foot on Mars to stay there for the rest of their lives. Not only would this make the mission much cheaper and simpler - it would also, in time, ensure the human race's survival in the event of a disaster befalling planet Earth.

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Dennis Donovan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. Why not? No teabaggers, no Sarah Palin...
Bliss, baby!!! :D
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MinneapolisMatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. Totally.
n/t
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Kennah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's a fascinating concept ...
... but I'm voting not sure. It would be pure hell if one discovered there was a closet Palinaholic amongst the group--at least until they were sacrificed to Thuvia of Ptarth.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. No.
And why? Because the earth is my home...

Let the young go...

I want to die here.

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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
5. send these guys
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amyrose2712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. That's one ugly evil pic. It makes my belly hurt. nt
Edited on Mon Nov-15-10 09:52 PM by amyrose2712
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
37. Send vampires to Mars?
We won't want to colonize the place after giving them a head start!
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yourout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
6. depends on who else is going.
Uma Thurman and/or Charlize Theron as a companion(s) and I might.
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BlueJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. I would do it in a heartbeat. I love Adventure.
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Merlot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. Does Mars have mini-bars and jacuzzi tubs?
Does Mars leave a mint on your pillow at night?
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. Sure, why not??
It already has a secret rebel base
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
10. Where else could you get that level of job security?
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Travis_0004 Donating Member (417 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
11. I have a better idea: Don't go to mars
Why spend the money to go to mars at all? Seems like a waste of billions of dollars.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. If that was the way humans thought we would all be huddled up together in Northeast Africa right now
Wouldn't we?

Don
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. I'm not sure that is a fair analogy.
Spending a few thousand years walking across a terrestrial continent in response to population pressures is not really the same thing as committing hundreds of billions of public dollars to go to an alien planet that cannot support life this century. I quess I question the urgency of it. While I would love to see humans walk on Mars (or anywhere else in the Solar system for that matter), I just don't see why doing it in the near future should be considered a priority.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Sure, but how many scientists say that we are vulnerable to extinction by living on only 1 planet
There's always that.

TIM THE ENCHANTER: "For death awaits you... with nasty big pointy teeth"
KING ARTHUR: "What an eccentric performance..."

http://www.videosat.org/video/aZJZK6rzjns/Tim-The-Enchanter.html
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. You are probably right
But I bet there were some politicians raising all kinds of hell about the money that was about to be wasted by Columbus looking for a shorter route to Asia by trying to sail west.

What I was trying to say is that I think humans by their very nature have an urge to explore. I think its in our DNA.

Don
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. because sometimes
it's about inspiration for a society, and I think the jobs required to support such an endeavor couldn't hurt either.

To me the issues with this planet are less about money than policies. I don't think that billion dollars will do much to change the world here for various reasons, but a project like this could do much to inspire the world much like the moon landings did. I think the problems are decoupled from things like this, they aren't tied together.

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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #11
35. Send machines instead.
It's cheaper and it helps us gain experience for the exploration of the outer planets and their moons where we won't have the capacity to send manned missions.
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RoccoR5955 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
12. I would go in a nanosecond.
I have wanted to explore space since I was a little kid. I am single, with no family. What do I have to lose? As long as I can bring some music, reading material, and a telescope, I would be fine.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
13. As you get older, it might seem like a good option...
(without direct family concerns).... That said, can I bring my pups? (Can't live without doggies!!!!)
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
16. For some, "not coming back" would be a draw, not a draw back. n/t
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
17. Considering how things are going - I'd definitely give it a thought.
But not if they don't have pho noodles. That's a gamechanger.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
18. No, I could care less about Mars. I'd rather go to Philadelphia. n/t
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. why? Both are equally desolate!
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
20. "...ensure the human race's survival in the event of a disaster..."
Well, no, it would assure the presence of unmarked graves on Mars.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
22. I would sign on in a New York minute
Just one request: please make any others pass the "no-assholes test" before being able to accompany me there. I would like an exemption from the test because... well, those of you who know me by now can answer that....
:rofl:

On a serious note, many years ago a group of former NASA engineers (astronauts too, I think) came up with an idea for establishing a semi-permanent Mars habitat. They called it "Mars For Less" that is similar to the older "Mars Direct" plan championed by Robert Zubrin. The two are similar except that "Mars for Less" relies upon currently existing booster rockets to get stuff into orbit while Zubrin's plan relies upon a yet-to-be-developed heavy lift vehicle.

The basic idea is to send the robotic equipment to Mars first, including nuclear reactors to provide reliable power for later on (the robots won't need much power by comparison). Then send habitation modules, greenhouse modules, labs, etc., and the robots put them all together and create whatever else in the way of infrastructure is needed there for safe and comfortable Human habitation.

I dreamed up my own idea (as yet unnamed) to use magnetically levitated boosters (the principle is used on our Navy ships rail guns today) to fling the heavy parts and containers of raw materials that cannot be sourced on Mars itself into orbit so they can be connected to the "mother ship" that will ferry the stuff to Mars then return empty for another load (and a fill-up of its fuel). Using the rail gun technology brings the cost per pound down towards $100 per pound versus $4,000 per pound for rockets. See why I like it?

Everything will be controlled by engineers on the ground and skilled robot operators so no humans need to be involved until the astronauts actually get ready to go to Mars. Once they get there they will find a fully completed Mars "city" with growing plants ready to be eaten, forests and gardens that will make the oxygen for the humans.

The more materials that can be sourced locally from Mars the better. All the habitats will have to be buried deep enough to protect against the occasional meteor (Mars' atmosphere is too thin to burn them up as happens in Earth's atmosphere), protect against radiation (especially solar storms, again due to the thin atmosphere).

I thought about calling it "Disney Monorail to Mars" but there might be copyright issues with that... Maybe "Mars for -EVEN- Less" perhaps...
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #22
33. A little bit more information about magnetic space launch
The navy is probably going all magnetic rail guns on their warships. In 2008, the Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Gary Roughead witnessed firsthand a successful and world-record test firing of an electromagnetic rail gun at Naval Surface Warfare Center, Dahlgren.
A rail gun uses electricity vice chemical propellants, which current shipboard guns use, to fire projectiles at a range exceedingly 200 miles and at a velocity of mach seven. In comparison, the fleet's standard shipboard MK45 five-inch gun has a range of about 20 miles.

http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=34727


So our ships can sit over 100 miles away from shore or more and pound almost any enemy fortification or army no matter where they are. Now that's power projection.

Why is the Navy thinking about magnetic rail guns? What's wrong with the old tried and true?
The launcher (barrel) contains a pair of metal conducting rails embedded in a structure made of composite materials. Very strong opposing magnetic fields are generated within the launcher by a high current pulse that flows through the rails and a bridging armature positioned behind the projectile when the rail gun is fired. These fields create a propulsive force that accelerates the armature and projectile out of the barrel. The GPS-guided projectile will exit the launcher at approximately 2500 meters/second. On the way to its target, the projectile would leave the Earth’s atmosphere, making it less susceptible to jamming or interception, and minimizing interference with friendly aircraft upon re-entry into airspace.

When operational, the EMRG will provide high-volume, precise, and time-critical fires in all-weather conditions. The goal of the Office of Naval Research rail gun project is to develop and smoothly transition prototype system that can deliver fires with high accuracy and lethality at distances greater than 200 nautical miles. The rounds will contain little or no high explosive material. Instead, they will inflict damage bway of high-velocity impact. With no explosives or propellants, the logistics of supporting the weapon will be simplified and crew and shsafety will be enhanced.

Railguns provide a capability for sustained, offensive power projection, complementary to missiles and tactical aircraft. Railguns may be a cost-effective solution to the Marine Corps Naval Surface Warfare Support future assault requirements for expeditionary maneuver warfare because of their unique capability to simultaneously satisfy three key warfighting objectives: (1) extremely long ranges; (2) short time-of-flight; and (3) high lethality (energy-on-target).

One important distinction between railguns and propellant-based guns is the difference in muzzle velocity. The 5-inch/54and 5-inch/62guns of today achieve muzzle velocities of approximately 800 m/s. In contrast, a railgun can accelerate a projectile to hypersonic velocities of 2500 m/s or Mach 7 and greater, enabling more that 200 nautical mile ranges within a six-minute time of flight. Such high muzzle velocities preclude the need for post-launch rocket-assist to achieve extended ranges. In an indirect fire mode, the projectile flight profile is predominantly exo-atmospheric, reducing the deconfliction problem and potential for Global Positioning System jamming.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/systems/emrg.htm


It has now been shown that magnetic launch systems are possible, not just some wacky science fiction dream. The small units that can fit aboard a Navy ship can get a projectile to 2500 meters per second (m/s), escape velocity is 11,200 m/s so we're almost a quarter there with a small unit. The only thing required is to increase the size and power. The last link gave a power requirement of 30 mega watts for the 2500 m/s system. The required amount of power will be quite a bit more than that but we should be able to power it with solar, a fairly large sized wind farm, or a coal or nuclear power plant.

Here is more about the maglev launch system:
A new approach for greatly reducing the unit cost to launch payloads into space is described. The approach, termed Maglev launch, magnetically levitates and accelerates space craft to orbital type speeds in evacuated tunnels at ground level, using superconducting Maglev technology similar to that already operating for high speed passenger in Japan. Two Maglev launch systems are described. The near term Gen-1 Maglev launch system would accelerate heavy cargo craft (-40 tons) to 8 km/sec using electrical energy at a unit energy cost of only 50 cents per kilogram. No propellants would be required. After achieving orbital speed the Gen-1 cargo craft would exit into the atmosphere at a high altitude point (> 4000 meters) on the surface, and climb through the atmosphere to orbit. The aerodynamic deceleration and heating loads during the ascent through the atmosphere appear acceptable. A single Gen-1 facility could launch over 100,000 tons annually at a unit launch cost of less than $50 per kg of payload, compared to present costs of $10,000 per kg.

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=4526501


At $50 per kg you could launch yourself (or something equally heavy) for less than $5,000 instead of a couple of million. This is a breakthrough technology, there is no doubt.
Researchers in a group including Wenjiang Yang and his colleagues from the Beijing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics and the Chinese Academy of Sciences have investigated the possibility of the “Maglifter,” a maglev launch assist vehicle originally proposed in the 1980s. In this system, a spaceship would be magnetically levitated over a track and accelerated up an incline, lifting off when it reaches a velocity of 1,000 km/hr (620 miles/hr). The main cost-saving areas would come from reduced fuel consumption and the reduced mass of the spaceship.
“Magnetic levitation is a promising technology for future space transportation,” Yang told PhysOrg.com. “The most expensive part of space missions to low-Earth orbit is the first few seconds—getting off the ground.”
In their model of a test vehicle on a seven-meter-long track, Yang’s group used a suspension system based on bulk high temperature superconductors, which achieve highly stable levitation due to their diamagnetic and flux pinning properties. The researchers used an arrangement of YBCO bulk superconductors, which achieve their remarkable property of zero resistance at 77 K. When the superconductors were cooled to this temperature, the test vehicle levitated freely over the track.

http://www.physorg.com/news91272157.html


The Gen-1 reference design launches a 40 ton, 2 meter diameter spacecraft with 35 tons of payload. At 12 launches per day, a single Gen-1 facility could launch 150,000 tons annually. Using present costs for tunneling, superconductors, cryogenic equipment, materials, etc., the projected construction cost for the Gen-1 facility is 20 billion dollars. Amortization cost, plus Spacecraft and O&M costs, total $43 per kg of payload. For polar orbit launches, sites exist in Alaska, Russia, and China. For equatorial orbit launches, sites exist in the Andes and Africa. With funding, the Gen-1 system could operate by 2020 AD.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2010AIPC.1208..121P

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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
25. I support the use of Mars as a penal colony for pedophiles, murderers,
and other useless miscreants, sort of like they did with Australia. They didn't all die, and some good eventually came of it.
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Because who wouldn't want serial killers to be able to jump ten feet high and flip over cars?
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Hey, they can use their superhero skills to kill each other or die stupidly.
Either way, it works for me.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
26. That's a fascinatingly even poll. (nt)
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-10 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #26
44. Every time I come back and click on it there is never more than one vote difference
It is kind of fascinating. Lot of good replies too.

Glad I posted it.

Don
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Phoonzang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
27. Tiebreaker...Yes.
Edited on Tue Nov-16-10 06:38 PM by Phoonzang
It wouldn't be one way anyway. After a decade or so, trips from Earth to Mars would become routine so you'd be able to visit home if you wanted to.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
28. Sounds like a nice field trip for ALL the Republicans.
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FLPanhandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
31. Upon retirement I'm off on my sailboat and not coming back home
I would swap that for a Mars Trip in a heartbeat.
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denbot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
34. Yes.
What greater adventure than attempting to colonize another planet? No hesitation, no regrets. My wife would be pissed, and since I married the right woman there would be a 50/50 chance of her signing on just for the hell of it.
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callous taoboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
36. Public school teacher here. Sign me up.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-10 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
38. It's a crappy place to homestead: there's nothing there. There are no
streams to fish, there are no flocks of birds to snare, there are no buffalo to hunt, there are no nuts or grass-seed or berries to gather. There is no obvious water to drink. There is no air to breathe. Crudely speaking, it's less inviting that Antarctica

It takes a year or two to get there, and once you're there, all you can do is realize there is no there there

"Mars: Our New Home!" is a dream of idiots and lunatics
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pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Wouldn't 'lunatics' more accurately describe Moon colonists? (nt)
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Ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-22-10 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
39. Depends
On the current Mars, hell no. I don't want to live in a dome and not be able to breathe real air. However, if Mars is transformed into an Earth-like planet with oceans and breathable air, maybe.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 03:52 AM
Response to Original message
40. In a heartbeat.
Imagine being that kind of pioneer.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. That's what I say, too
Edited on Tue Nov-23-10 09:36 AM by txlibdem
And what the heck is "real" air????

Review my posts #22 and #33
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=228x73078#73119

I'll paraphrase. There's a right way and a wrong way to go to Mars. The wrong way is how NASA has done every manned mission since 1960. Super expensive, done through a person's manual labor and dramatic space walks, using expensive specialized hardware and outdated computer systems, relying on technology developed during WWII (rockets). Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

The right way is to use (ref post #33) automated and robotic construction techniques, both to construct the spaceship that will take us to Mars AND to construct all the infrastructure on Mars that arriving astronauts (colonists?) will make use of. The right way is to use the cheapest method to launch things into space (maglev), not the most expensive (booster rockets). The right way is to source as much material from the available resources right on Mars, rather than shipping building materials from Earth. The right way is to use materials from the moon (launched into orbit via maglev as well) if they are not available on Mars.

Added on edit: The right way is to build up adequate infrastructure on Mars to provide the food and air that they colonists will need before they ever set foot there. Greenhouses, algae, and human psyche-required things like a forested park (I'd go nuts looking at grey walls for the rest of my life). Everything has to be built and equipped, up and running and then buried under meters of soil and rock to protect against the radiation on Mars (thin atmosphere and no magnetic field to offer protection from the sun's radiation). Done right it could be a paradise. Done wrong it could be a nightmare or a prison. Let's do it right.

Think more like Biosphere 2 but underground: http://www.b2science.org/
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-10 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Food production using hydroponics uses 5% of the water, up to 1/40th the land for same harvest
Edited on Tue Nov-23-10 10:38 AM by txlibdem
Using hydroponic and aeroponic growing techniques which automatically and precisely measures and adjusts the nutrient solution to fit each different crop will maximize output and result in the most nutritious produce. Better fruits and vegetables mean better nutrition and better health to those who eat it. Add that to the savings in water --a commodity in very short supply on Mars-- and you have a winning combination.

Here are some more ideas about maximizing plant yields via stacking (aka vertical gardening), hydroponics, and aeroponics (aka aerponics).

1. http://www.aerofarms.com/why/technology?gclid=CP2JpMiVt6UCFU0J2god5TgjXw

2. http://www.verticalfarm.com/

3. http://plantsonwalls.com/?gclid=CIrWwrSat6UCFdJf2godTVGCag -- lots of visual interest

4. http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/1802219/uk-firm-vertical-farming-vision-reality

I am unable to find the chart that shows the yield multiplier of the various crops versus the same crop grown with American farming techniques using soil, pesticides, herbicides, huge quantities of water, etc. I'll keep looking but here is some helpful info.
Dr. Howard M. Resh, in his book HYDROPONIC FOOD PRODUCTION, cites vegetable yield increases that are dramatic; identical cucumber plants produced 7,000 pounds per acre in soil but 28,000 pounds per acre when grown hydroponically and tomato yields that ranged from 5 to 10 tons per acre in soil but 60 to 300 tons per hydroponic acre. The reported results are typical for practically any plant. Said another way, to produce the total number of tomatoes consumed annually in Canada (400 million pounds) requires 25,000 acres of soil. Hydroponically, it would require only 1,300 acres.

http://www.simplyhydro.com/f_a_q.htm

The dramatic increase in yields with hydroponics is best illustrated if we consider the actual production figures of soil grown and hydroponically grown produce. Field grown tomatoes average yields ranging between 40,000 to 60, 000 pounds per acre; on the other hand top growing hydroponics facilities in the US and Canada report average yields of more than 650,000 pounds of tomatoes per acre. Additionally, given the fact that only 10 years ago top hydroponics producers were producing around 400,000 pounds per acre, the increase in yields with improvements in growing practices has been truly phenomenal. Similar production figures can be quoted for other agricultural produce like cucumbers with 10,000 pounds per acre for field production and 200,000 per acre for hydroponic greenhouse yields. Hydroponics lettuce and pepper yields too average around four times the corresponding yields of agricultural production.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/hydroponics-in-commercial-food-production.html

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