ok the bread thing... it looks right, rises right, the dough stretches

like it's supposed to, it bakes up brown and pretty. Crusty crust and soft inside. Small holes and uniforn constistancy and no big air pockets

but it has no taste :shrug:

i am using bread flour, a little salt, Red Star active dry yeast, water and today I made a sponge and added a beaten egg and some sugar and melted shortening (very little of either) then the flour. It proofed twice beautifully and baked up lovely, but blah! no yummy taste and a weird (yeast??) aftertaste

what am i missing??

I'd guess at too little salt. But its just a guess. Dough has damned few ingredients. The flavor comes from two things ...... yeast and salt. As the yeast develops (ferments, literally) it gains the taste we all associate with bread. Salt, however, is the flavor enhancer. Too salty is bad, to be sure. But too little salt is no good either.

I don't know that I'd have added the egg to the starter. I'm not saying you shouldn't, just that I've never done it. I don't know what the effect of that could be.:shrug:

So that'd be my guess .......... too little salt.

not into the starter itself

the recipe only called for 1/4 teaspoon of salt for two loaves



PS thanks for you help today :yourock:

Salt measure for 2 loaves ought to be 2 to 2 1/4 tsp, about .5 ounce.

Lots of baking questions ... and many of them a mystery to some of us. I figgered the issue was salt, but wasn't certain.

Thank you! I can use a few warm fuzzies & smiles now.

You've got good instincts, honing in on the salt. You are quite knowledgable, too. Have you been to culinary school?

and thanks! salt is what is missing

Joy of Cooking let me down! I'm changing the recipe in the book but 2 tsp?? maybe it's a typo and should be 2 1/2 tsp ya think?

their basic "white bread" recipe calls for 1 TBSP salt


guess I'll just fool with it a bit


BTW wolf, you are a VERY welcome addition! with or without your bread skills :)

If you give me just the ingredients and quantities, I might have some suggestions as to what's wrong with the recipe.

they call it "Gluten Bread"

3 cups 110 degree water
1 package active dry yeast

let yeast melt (aroung 3-5 minutes) add 2 cups "gluten" flour (I used unbleached bread flour from Sprouts) and let rise in a warm place until light and foamy

combine, beat and add to sponge

1 beaten egg
2 TBSP melted shortening
1/2 tsp salt
(2 TBSP sugar is optional, I added about 1 TBSP)

Stir in

about 4 cups gluten flour

i got cocky and added flour it to the beast (without measuing very carefully) til i had a sticky dough then kneded in a bit more flour til it was smooth and elastic

let it rise twice and baked at 350 for about an hour.

Like i said it looks great just tastes a bit "off"

thanks for your input!!!!

The recipe is almost exactly the same except that the temp for the water is 85 degrees. The salt is 1/2 teaspoon just like your book. Just so you know.

This recipe is for a low-carbo, higher-protein bread than most yeasted breads. It calls for "2 cups gluten flour" which is sort of "horse of a different color." It's not a normal bread flour (not the same as "high gluten bread flour -that's a bread flour), it's a special flour that's been manufactured by washing the starch out of hard wheat flour, then dried and ground, sometimes called "vital wheat gluten". You'd find it in the health foods section of the grocery or maybe if your supermarket has a section of special flours like those from Bob's Red Mill, or something like that.

Being a higher protein flour, it will absorb more water than bread flour or all-purpose flour.

I've never made bread from gluten flour, so I'm sort of winging it here.

My copy of "Joy of Cooking" also the 1979 version, also shows 1/2 tsp salt for this bread. That seems low to me but I've looked at a number of low-carb bread recipes on the web and they all are quite low in salt. Salt has an inhibiting effect on yeast so it may be that with the gluten flour, the recipe needs less salt in order to get a good rise from the yeast. Adding more salt could give you a lower-rising, more dense loaf.

If you did use gluten flour, here is a tip for trying the recipe again. Hold out about 1/4 cup of flour. After you've mixed all your ingredients and the mixture is just all combined, turn the mixer off, cover the bowl with a towel and let it sit for 20 minutes. This will give the flour a chance to absorb the water. Then turn it back on with the dough hook and let it knead. If it's real sticky, add a little flour. You want a dough that is soft and moist - slightly tacky is okay.

Try adding more salt, maybe increas to 3/4 tsp the next time, and increase by a little each time you try the recipe until you get it to where you like it. Keep notes with each experiment so that you know what adjustments you've already made and how they turned out.

Hope that's a little help, anyway... good luck to you!

The Gluten Bread recipe from "Beard on Bread" calls for
1 pkg active dry yeast
1 c plus 2 tbls warm water
2 1/3 c gluten flour
1 tsp salt
(makes 1 loaf in an 8x4x2 pan)
so you can see that it uses much more salt than the "Joy of Cooking" recipe, also much more yeast in proportion to the flour (about one-fifth the flour and 1/3 the water) so you can't really compare the recipes (unless you converted it all to bakers' percentages) but I thought the salt qty was interesting.

and all my JoC recipes were for all purpose flour

it seems since I have owned the "beast" i make our bread every week and I need to just get an every day bread recipe

edit to add--- the 700 watt wolfgang Puck Mixer is nicknamed the "beast"

so far my best bread as been a Faux Sourdough

1 package Active dry yeast
2 1/2 cups bread flour (i had unbleached)
1 TBSP dark molasses
1 cup Sour Cream (at room temp)
1 tsp salt
1 tsp lemon juice
4 TBSP warm water

i put the ingredients into my bread maker in the order listed. She said set it for "white bread" but my machine died after the first mix. the dough was still a little sticky and not completely smooth..

so i took it out, kneaded it by hand about 4 more times, placed in an oiled bowl and let it rise. Punched it down and let it rise again then baked it at 350 for about 35-40 minutes. It was beautiful and light and came out great.

but I need a more basic recipe for the days I don't have sour cream

do you have one you could share?

You can pretty much substitute all-purpose and bread flour for each other. When making the dough, bread flour absorbs more flour than all-purpose so if you're substituting bread flour for a-p, you'll need a little extra liquid or a little extra flour. If substituting a-p for bread flour, a little less liquid or a little more flour.

As for the end result, properly kneaded bread flour makes a loaf that will be a little higher-rising and stronger than a-p. A-p gives you a loaf that is softer and more tender, but a little lower.

Bread making takes a certain amount of "playing with" or experimenting in order to learn and find out what works best for you in your environment. For instance, being in Arizona where it is often hot and very dry, the flour dries out and needs a little more liquid in order to achieve the proper consistency. People in high altitudes have other challenges they need to figure out.

But the key is always to achieve the proper consistency of dough - a dough that is soft and moist but holds its shape. A little tacky is okay but not sticky. The biggest mistake new breadbakers make is to add too much flour to their dough, making it all the way dry instead of a little bit moist.

Thanks for your questions and the opportunity to talk a little about bread baking, this has been fun for me.

thread

I'll try them next weekend for sure. Thanks also for the info on the differences between AP and bread flour. sounds like AP is fine for my needs rather than having 3 kinds of flour in the cupboard (AP, bread and pastry).

we have had such a wet winter, I guess when summer rolls around I'll get to do a whole new learning curve for dough in our normally dry conditions.

can I impose on you for one more question? DH loves dinner rolls and wants me to start doing those. My thinking is that I can make the dough, form it and freeze it as rolls, then just defrost the number I need on any given day. so my question is....

where in the cycle should I freeze the dough? let it rise once? twice? or not at all. I think it's supposed to rise again once it comes out of the freezer right?

you are so great to share your experience with me, I REALLY appreciate it!

:yourock:

No imposition... I haven't talked about bread for a long time so this is very much fun for me, I've enjoyed our conversation greatly.

You can freeze dough basically at any point - after mixing, after first rise, after 2nd rise, or after shaping. Basically it depends on what you like and how you want to use it.

So experiment with dinner rolls and decide whether you prefer them after 1 rise or 2 prior to shaping, then you'll have your answer. You can shape and freeze after either rise, it just depends on your preference.

You've got the right idea - deflate (punch down) your dough, divide and shape it into rolls. Put them on a cookie sheet and freeze them, then put them into a freezer bag for storage. You might want to wrap each one separately in waxed paper for added protection. Then you can take out however many you want to bake, let the dough thaw (can do in the refrigerator overnight), rise again and then bake. The frozen dough will last in the freezer for about 3 months.

I always use all-purpose flour for dinner rolls since it makes a more tender roll. I like a recipe made with milk (either liquid or non-instant dry) and a goodly amount of butter for added tenderness and flavor.

Just for fun, you might want to try King Arthur's A-P flour (you can buy it at Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, Wild Oats, gourmet/ranch-type markets). It's a slightly higher protein than Gold Medal, Pillsbury and supermarket brands.

Bread flour is great in bread machines when you want a high-rising, fluffy sort of loaf. Bread machines are extremely efficient kneading machines and they make very good use of the high-protein bread flour. But in a home mixer, even a 700W one, you should be just fine with A-P flour. Experiment with both and see which you prefer.

Good luck, hope your next bread comes out wonderfully.

and that is the AP flour i currently have

I shop at Basha's and Sprout's or Costco exclusively (even though on the weekends it's a farther drive except Costco) as I vowed to support blue companies only.

here's a Dinner rolls recipe from the 1986 Good Housekeeping cookbook that sounds like what you suggest

1/3 cup sugar
1 1/2 tsp salt
2 packages active dry yeast
about 5 cups AP flour
1 cup milk
4 TSP butter
2 eggs

in a large bowl combine first 3 ingredients and 1 1/2 cups flour. In a saucepan combine milk and butter and heat to 120-130 degrees (butter does not need to melt)

with mixer at low speed, gradually beat liquids into dry ingredients until just blended; beat two minutes scraping as needed. Beat in eggs and 1/2 cup flour to make a thick batter; continue beating 2 minutes scraping often. with a wooden spoon stir in 2 1/4 cups flour to make a soft dough

Knead 10 minutes working in about 3/4 cups more flour

turn into greased bowl and turn to grease top, let rise until doubled (about 1 hour) Punch down and turn on floured surface, cover and let rest 15 minutes. Shape into rolls and place on greased cookie sheets and let rise again (about 30 minutes)

brush with egg glaze (1 egg beaten with 1 TBSP milk until blended)

bake at 400 10-15 minutes or until golden brown

I'll have to play with it to adjust for my mixer but it sounds great!

The recipe sounds great, hope it works out well for you.

I talked about it way, way down in another thread here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=236&topic_id=4818&mesg_id=4818

for an incredibly delicious brioche recipe that I used for cinnamon rolls. Wow! It was an over-night ferment dough, then refrigerate so it took a while to make but ... yum!

Mix up a portion of your flour, water and yeast the night before (make a "sponge").

This will add to the flavor tremendously!