Fascinating post in GD re: shame versus guilt

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8900074

:hi:

I am of the "shame on you" generation. I heard it A LOT growing up, from mom, grandma, other older women in my life. It sure did some damage to my psyche, therefore, I never used it on my children. Well, I did once when my younger daughter got picked up for shoplifting (she had the money in her pocket!). She was brought home in a squad car. Other than that, I always remembered how it made me feel and I refused to inflict such pain on my daughters.

"I'd be ashamed" and "Shame on you" were a huge part of the loving landscape of my childhood. I'm sure they thought they were doing the right thing, and in the sense that I am one of the most law-abiding, do-the-right-thing people I know (can't tell a lie to save my life, would chase a gum wrapper across a busy street not to litter, etc.) I guess they did. However, the message of shame and worthlessness can be crippling at times.

And yes, I certainly tried to do it differently with my children, too!

:hug:

Loving landscape is such an accurate description.

I disagree though with the article stating that "Shame has the effect of turning off the innate empathic impulse." I don't think this is necessarily so. In our cases, I think it heightened empathy.

When I was a child, my stepfather (who everyone thought was my father) was imprisoned twice. The first time, it was in the city jail, and the second time, it was in a state penitentary. (His crimes were not violent crimes -- they were theft.)

I had to work hard to deal with this. I was embarrassed by the fact that he was in prison, and there were a few of my peers who would tease me about it. (It's OK -- I'm very, very much over that now. :)) I had to work hard to define my feelings so that I didn't internalize what he did as in any way a reflection of me as a person. It wasn't until I was able to define my feeling as embarrassment/being ashamed vs. feeling guilty that I was able to not have it impact my own self worth/self esteem/value in the world. That realization made through introspection allowed me to get through it with my own self-worth unscathed. Now I can mention the fact that my father was in prison without any negative feelings or even shame; that took a bit more work.

However, I do wonder if I would have felt the same way if he had been my genetic father. Maybe I'd have then worried that I was genetically inclined to do the same thing. Because nobody who I knew at that time knew that he wasn't my genetic father, I did feel as though I had to be squeaky clean so that there would be no chance that anyone would latch onto one "bad" action as proof that I "hadn't fallen far from the tree". That being said, my friends' parents always welcomed me (regardless of the "sins of the father") because they knew that I was "a good kid" who wouldn't lead their child astray.

Therefore, to me "shame" doesn't necessarily involve any personal responsibility, whereas "guilt" does. My father was guilty (and should have felt "guilt", although I suspect that he didn't), and I felt ashamed.

I have felt shame at actions of others as well, and it's great you were able to separate that from your own sense of self. I also wonder if it would have been more difficult for you if it had been your biological dad. I also think that separation makes a space for forgiveness. I'm so glad you were able to come through that experience still knowing your worth. :hug:

I think another distinction is that guilt is about being remorseful for actions, and shame is about feelings of self-worth. So in other words, I should feel guilty for saying something mean to my sister, but I should be ashamed at being such a mean person that I would say something mean to my sister. I think that's why shame is so toxic; it can make us believe we aren't really worth loving.

Thank you to those who have shared their impressions and experiences.

:grouphug:

I'm especially intrigued with the connection between shame, guilt and empathy as it applies to groups of people we see as causing harm or disharmony by being apathetic or outright mean, nasty, and destructive, affecting society as a whole.

I don't have any "aha" moments from the essay this DUer posted, nor from any of your sharings, but it gets me closer, and I thank you. This is a subject I'm almost obsessed with for some unknown reason, how to shake people from whatever leads to their lack of empathy.