Celtic cross reading, 11/19/04.

I agreed to start this. Feel free to use my question and add your readings or comment on mine. If you prefer a different question, then post it on a separate thread for commentary.

Question:

“What is the direction the man sworn in as President of the United States in January of 2005 will lead our nation? Will it be forward in justice and prosperity or backwards into greed, more war and debt?”

I want to post the actual cards but I didn’t have time to set it up, so this time, I will just write them down.

Card #1 – Five of Wands, R
Card #2 - The Wheel of Fortune

Card #3 – Four of Swords
Card #4 – The Magician, R
Card #5 – The Page of Cups

Card #6 – The Nine of Wands, R

Card #7 – The Ten of Swords, R
Card #8 – The Star, R
Card #9 – Five of Swords, R
Card #10- Justice, R

My interpretation:

First I was struck by the number of reversed cards. It seems things will be upside down during the next President’s administration. I was also struck by the fact that most of the cards were either Wands or Swords indicating more strife than Cups and Pentacles would, which would indicate more love and prosperity.

In the present, the five of Wands reversed and crossed by the Wheel of Fortune indicates that we are in a situation that is full of disputes and complications, perhaps the vote count, and it will be decided by universal forces beyond our control.

The past indicates our small moments of peace and prosperity have been destroyed by the use of power for destructive ends. It sure fits what has happened in the past.

The Page of Cups as crowning our country again appears to be the reason. I think this is Bush. A president should be a king or even emperor, but this card indicates that Bush is a messenger and deliverer for those who are really in power.

The card pointing to the future indicates obstructions to the direction this country should take.

The people in power want advantage and profit, but the reversed Ten of Swords would indicate that those things will be fleeting and not permanent. I hope that it is for them and not our nation at large.

The reversed Star indicates that we as a nation have become pessimistic and no longer believe in our leadership. There is fear in the administration that they will lose.

The last card again has me stumped again, Justice reversed. I can only think that this administration will meet justice, but not in a good way.

Not to discredit your reading or understanding, this is just what I am seeing. :) I have never seen two questions asked for one reading, though.

I don't read reversed cards, but since you do, I will approach it from that perspective. The 5 of wands basically represents conflict, but reversed I see it as a "muted" conflict, one that was unevenly and unfairly fought, the World crossing it, to me, says the Cosmos has noticed this and will not allow this unfair conflict to end in its manifested way.

The last card, Justice reversed, is never a good sign! I have a feeling the powers that be are about to give some people a VERY rude awakening!

The fact that there are 4 major arcana cards, says to me that the natural forces are very involved and the fact that three are reversed, indicates they are none to happy. To me this reading says we are about to see some very bad things in quick succession!

“What is the direction the man sworn in as President of the United States in January of 2005 will lead our nation?"

I probably elaborated on it too much.

confusing answer to a question posed as "will it be this or will it be that".

In any case, Justice reversed does not bode well for the Rule of Law
in this country...or Roe v Wade.

Justice reveresed seems just what it sounds like....taking us back to
the 1950's...undoing all the progress in laws to protect the people against bad medicine, bad corporations, bigotry...

Wow.

Could your question really be who will be president and what will happen? That's what it looks like.

I see a fight.
The outcome is controlled by many forces and great unknowns.
(at this point anything could happen)
I see a great person of many talents that brings a message of hope (page of cups)
I see a great power meeting a great evil. I see hopes crushed with violence or the threat of it. and finally a great injustice as a possible outcome.

This is how I would read your cards. I think I'll do my own spread and see what I come up with.

I am really interested in what others come up with.

I will do it tomorrow. When I have more energy.

No earth energy (penticles) at all-- very ungrounded. Only one cup - very little water energy - emotions are almost irrelevant. All of the swords and wands indicate a lot of agressive, "male" energy dominates (surprise, surprise). Of the 4 major arcana cards, only one is upright, which is the Wheel of Fortune-- karma. Since the other three are reversed, that would indicate any positive and balancing influences are lessened if not blocked.

"All of the swords and wands indicate a lot of agressive, "male" energy dominates (surprise, surprise)"
LOL
You aren't kidding! Creepy ain't it.
Lovebug, would you do a spread too?

I did do one on the day of the election and I saw the Emperor (reversed) leaving (which I took to mean the Shrub) and the 4 of Penticles (sometimes known as the miser card) coming in. Greedy bastards taking control. Lovely. I don't remember the other cards but I do remember not being encouraged by what I saw.

A hard rain is gonna fall...

Would anyone like to do a spread on the future of the progressive/Democratic movement in this country?

know it, fading into the past. I too have had the Emperor card in the past in some readings.

Positive or negative influences are simply muted by reversals in most of my readings. I'm having a tough time getting my head around this reading partly because of that. I also feel the cards will speak to whoever it is that is laying them down in the language of THAT person. My interpretations really may not be valid to your cards, if that makes any sense to you...

Anyhow, in my view, the presence of that many of the Major Arcana cards indicates that this really is something beyond the power of any human--it is largely controlled by karma (or fate or whatever you want to call it.)

As somebody else pointed out, I also think it highly significant that the majority of the suits that are present are those of both action and anger/strength rather than emotion or reason. THAT is a very martial reading and it creeps me out to an extent.

5 of Wands crossed by the Wheel of Fortune--to me that is somebody getting caught after they have cheated or taken a horrible risk to win. The wheel always turns, and if it is based on illegitimate ideals and ideals its influence will impact in negative ways.

That crowning Page of Cups gives me some hope, actually. It is the one Cup in the entire reading, and it is a court card. To me, I see that as an indicator that ahead of us (ultimately and if nothing unlooked for works to change things) lays the influence of warmth and emotion.

The rest of the cards are most likely as you have seen them. Again, I keep coming back to the fact that Tarot really IS a visual thing and it is highly specific to the one who lays the cards down. This is YOUR imagery we are dealing with here. :)

That Justice in the last placement really just screams to me that the initial conflict represented by the opposing /crossed Five of Wands and Wheel of Fortune is gonna be judged by more than just humans.

That is one huge ass karmic debt coming due, and it will not be a pretty landing when that Wheel of Fortune stops turning and Justice comes down. that martial/military energy in this reading really makes me think it will be more of a judgment that is one of action rather than a court of law. (Think of the energy of a lynching rather than a courtroom.)

It is gonna get really ugly for a bit--but I have got to say, we may be in much better shape sooner than I would have expected--once the Page comes into power.

I have got to get my energies focused enough to do a decent reading this weekend!!!

Laura

You have TOTALLY piqued my interest!! I have used a spell that accelerates Karma (very effective) and and another that mirrors a person's own lies causing them to undo their own lies. So, speak your languages (I also love languages, I speak six)! I wanna hear!!! Tell us what you see! :)

Human learning and mass consciousness goes in stages. Right now it's about mirroring and I think I'm talking about a different type of mirroring than you are.

I don't get the "spell" talk. Am I missing the joke?

By language I meant not talking about cards directly.

The "spell" talk is not a joke. I am a witch. I thought I was in the Pagan spirituality room, so I made an inaccurate assumption about you. I apologize.

I understand better what your original post means. I feel like a goober!

i still enjoyed what you wrote!

Card #1 – Five of Wands, R
Card #2 - The Wheel of Fortune

Card #3 – Four of Swords
Card #4 – The Magician, R
Card #5 – The Page of Cups

Card #6 – The Nine of Wands, R

Card #7 – The Ten of Swords, R
Card #8 – The Star, R
Card #9 – Five of Swords, R
Card #10- Justice, R

first off, i don't always read R cards strictly as a wholly different symbol. sometimes they feel like a suppressed upright card depending on the whole layout. i'm getting a little of that here, that's why i mention it. also i refer to heaven as a generic supernatural concept, too.

my interpretation:
1 we are covered with a suppressed competition. there was fraud. there will be more fraud, cheating, lying, and despotism. the old boy system is now our new present reality.

2 the 'heavens' are pissed hence the cross of wheel of fortune upright. there will be active primal forces throwing wrenches into plans. being one of the 5 'crisis cards' of the major arcana (justice, hanged man, death, tower, and wheel) opens up that we'll face much trial soon. in relation to time and space in particular, time has run out for both the cabal (heaven is now actively maneuvering) and a USA laying on its laurels.

3 the basis of the question, 4 of swords, rests upon the people, all the people, involved in this nation and its election. we are seeking a rejuvenating time of rest, we are weary. we are trying to recouperate, but the world and this cabal has other things in store for us. we want to rest, hence many of those wanting to 'get over it' and go shopping, and many others leaving exhausted and not ready for a follow-up fight.

4 magician R leaving us is obviously in reference to great power misused. we can all understand this: war in iraq, bad domestic policy, economy, etc. fill in the blanks here.

5 the page of cups doesn't scream real messenger to me though, since it is in the wishful/dream/contemplating position. it tells me that there is a strong feeling/dreaming in this country for an impassioned (cups) leader to come and we are but waiting for the messenger (page) of his/her arrival. he does not feel terribly tangible to me -- feels like the desperate clingings of a deeply shaken populace weary of struggle (4 swords).

6 9 wands R, is not good. it shows that the surprising inner strength of our nation, the power to rebound from disaster, our ace in the hole, our endurance to win when all seems lost has now been suppressed in the near future. this helps lead me to believe that no leadership will come (unless it us, leading ourselves). otherwise, it is a pipe dream. a truly crushing weight of ills shall bear down on a nation who normally could weather this, who had the keys to its own salvation, and will be deprived from making use of it. why? because the magician is being misused and the judgement/discernment of the nation, our leaders, (the swords and justice reversed) are being ignored, suppressed. if we don't act, we the people, we can face real loss (5 swords R)

7 ten of swords R speaks of truly ill times that we fear. it will be bad, but yet, it won't be the apocalyptic permanent doom that pervades the inner peace of our people. but just because it is not THE end, doesn't mean it'll be much better. there's real fear consuming us as a people, and yet there is real hope still underneath, recovering (a la 4 swords)

8 the Star R, the opinion of others position. we are now no longer the beacon of inspiration. we glimmer that much dimmer now by our recent election. by poor judgment (a recurring theme, no?) good will has now forsaken us, we are seen in a far sadder light. we are shadows of our former glory in the sky of world nations. it is of a great change to the whole world, not a mere minor arcana event. we have become tarnished goods in the eyes of our throng of admirers on an epic scale.

9 5 of swords, key, the potential for real loss. we can lose something epic here, hence the large amount of major arcana. in fact there's so much major arcana one should do a major arcana reading. 2 crisis cards, 1 showing direct abuse of power leading to karmic retribution, and the star showing distinct fall from grace among our peers' eyes. it just doesn't get all that much bigger than this. we are being swindled (5 swords upright), and if it continues into completion, finishing this key card we will get real loss (5 swords R). and a loss of such proportion that would leave us shaken to our core drastically setting us on a new spiritual path, as heaven wants, or rending us entirely. we need to be the actors of our own destiny to prevent this one, we need to stand up to the thief.

10 justice R, culmination. oh dear. crisis card. crisis of the air, equally crisis of judgment/discernment. this reconfirms loss and injustice that we see in the spread. we did all that was right up to this point, but greater forces are in play. real tragedy shall befall us as a nation lest the key is acknowledged and we deny the thief, regain judgment, and struggle to regain what we lost while we were squabbling with another. a suppression of justice, a stilling of the air, a miasma stifling judgment, enervating potential leadership, also calls me from this card. if allowed to wallow in our self-recovery of 4 swords (which is healthy for a moment or so) the poisonous air of injustice might stifle us into complacency rendering capable a great loss for all thus tipping heavens hand to call forth the crisis of justice to bring forth crushing stagnation and muddled thinking as punishment (which seems to read as a collapsing economy and degeneration of learning/civilization of our country... scary!!)

tarot cards... why do you hate america? ugh, that wasn't a fun reading to do. i hope many of us can find the key to make positive change, but justice R seems to say part of this is also beyond our control and we did the best we could. heaven seems seriously pissed! oh dear.

It seems that there is a consensus that we are headed for upheavel and that the universe is angry and will step in to effect change. Although I took the Page of Cups to be Bush the messenger of the shadow government that is ruling us, everyone else thinks maybe this is the leader or savior who will lead us in our darkest hours.

Also the Page of Cups has appeared in the same position in other readings I have done, as well as cards that point to a bad period in our history.

It is interesting to see others' takes on the reading. Like you said, I believe there is a great upheaval in the process. I didn't know where to put the following feelings, so I thought they may go here. So, please pardon the slight 'hijack.'

The last four years upset several balances of power. The universe is seeing greater troubles to come. So many things pointed to the end of the Shrub rule; some mundane, some 'mystical,' some legend. Anybody remember rooting for the Redskins to LOSE? In 70 years, that little legend has always held if they (the Redskins) lost the last home come, the incumbent party was out the door. They lost! Why is Shrub still there? Astrological signs pointed to a breakdown of the current administration and a new leader emerging. Goes to show that the future CAN be changed! As for the mundane, that list could go on and on, but the one thing that pops to mind is the exit polls! They have always been highly accurate, now the ones where Kerry was winning, but lost the vote are inaccurate, but the ones where Shrub was ahead and won are correct?!?!

This administration has cheated their way into power again! Many people have been fooled, others have been 'defeated,' and still others are ready for rebellion. However, there is one "person" not fooled, the Universe! Things are about to get very dicey!

I hope the "Page of Cups" will rise to fight and kill the "dragon!" I suspect this person is already on the scene and not someone we would think of as a warrior! Power to him/her!

Sorry for the 'odd' train of thought, but I have been thinking these things since the election trying to make sense of what happened.

Brightest Blessings!

I see it as a kind of wistful, fragile hope. Although it can also have narcissistic connotations, it's true.

Haven't broken out the cards in a while, but your reading prompted me to do it, with the question, what will be the future of the American people under this Bush regime. I didn't use a significator. Five of the 10 cards are reversed, and there are four major arcana cards.

01: King of Wands, reversed.
02: Ace of Wands, reversed.
03: Two of Swords.
04: The Emperor.
05: Six of Cups.
06: The Hierophant, reversed.
07: Six of Swords.
08: The Lovers, reversed.
09: Queen of Cups.
10: Death, reversed.

Feel free to make sense of it. I looked some interpretations up in Rachel Pollack's books, but I'm really not a practiced Tarot reader.

1. a stubborn, tempermental bigot of a man covers the situation -- i read bush and his ilk.
2. the seed of opportunity and positive action denied. what could have saved us, our creative energetic zest as americans, has been denied us by such a wrong leader.
3. the nation is split of judgment, there are two ways of thinking and each consider themselves right. from this an impass is created, hence lack of entrepeneurialship (leadership) to get us out of this morass.
4. an age of good governance, a sense of powerful self-identity, now leaves the nation as a whole. we no longer see ourselves the leader, neither will others.
5. we obviously now long for brighter days of our past; and this is on both sides. the temptation for lingering in this delusion is strong for many.
6. a new, unorthodox, energy comes into us. we are now going to become the rebel, and shall be seen as such. up will be down, black will be white, Orwellian speech will be the norm. the shattering of order. the building of tension upon all sides.
7. the fear of crossing over and separating as a people. in the whole secession might be the best thing for us, but right now to cross that bridge is a real fear, one that most do not look forward to.
8. the lovers quarrel and look like they shall separate to all who look on. a real fear that a divorce will occur, civil war, secession. next to 6 of swords and heirophant R, the energies point to this as a legitimate fear the world has. we cannot maintain this level of tension and the world recognizes it. from within and from without, we both fear the same thing. a divorce can often be ugly.
9. the key now is to follow our gut, our intuition. things are amiss and the means to survive this is to be guided by the higher energies, by our intuition, just like the queen of cups does. if enough people can do this, reject the lies and false reasoning surrounding us, perhaps a pivot in direction can occur. it is now time to believe in ourselves and the higher energies around us.
10. once again i get the sense of miasma, stagnation. the crisis of earth, our land potentially rendered asunder by internal division, the basis of material things stagnated by a destroyed currency. only through walking through this valley and reorganizing ourselves (secession, revolution, civil war) can we come out again stronger. the world has made its sentence upon us, you may attempt to reassess and fix this, but most likely there won't be enough power; the heavens will have to intervene and force ourselves into a situation we wouldn't have had the courage or energy to do. if you can ride the wave of intuition you can perhaps weather this upcoming decision from above.

... hmm, nope, doesn't look like a good 4 years does it. again and again layouts are telling a similar story. wonder if there are any freepers getting similar readings, too.

I wonder if they cancel each other out in any way. Anyway, it's: misuse of (masculine) power. crossed by...not enough money. According to one website, the worst card to receive when asking about a business proposal, or a new initiative in general. So: we have a misguided emperor/imperial leanings, crossed by not enough cash/energy to pull it off. Sounds about right...

Hierophant reversed could mean the male authoritarian/imperial impulse/person is weakened, as well, I suppose. (hierophant is spiritual counterpart to the emperor; one's the heavenly or spiritual father, the other, earthly). it fits the current mood, certainly. stagnancy, corruption, weakness, confusion. bleah.

...although sites I'm now looking at suggest that it can mean an "unorthodox person," "open to new ideas, unorthodox, nontraditional." spiritually speaking, among other things. against the status quo. Interesting. It also seems to connote the general idea of "losing your religion," which sounds more likely, since we're asking about "the American people." More disillusionment. and specifically with something related to male and/or religious orthodoxy, perhaps?

particularly in light of that, the queen of cups is really interesting there. She's the most emotional card, and in some ways the opposite of the hierophant; the "water of water." It makes sense that we both hope for it and fear it. It's not our strong point, as Americans, that emotional, intuitive, powerful feminine side.

What I get out of this is: this is going to suck, but big changes are in motion. They may however take a while, and the process may or may not be to our liking. Inconclusive. Bush is not the final chapter here.

very interesting. Opposing card to the King of wands

take a crack at it! You can do it.

A powerful man with new power. His true self has been hidden.
He has been a leader of an naive and innocent people during good times.
His screw ups are really going to hurt others but he doesn't see it. He really thinks himself a good guy! He is going to slow down or reverse the progress of the nation and it's people. A big step backwards!

I will have to study it a bit. Some cards are repeating. It's as if the cosmos is trying to send us a message. I will post when I feel confident in the meaning.

I had to think about this spread for awhile since you didn't elaborate on an interpretation when you asked the question, which would have better indicated to me what you were thinking while doing the spread. However, I am wondering if you were thinking more of what will happen to American women's rights than Americans in general. If you were, then this spread is a little more positive.

Looking in general there is a feminine energy in the future indicated by the Lovers and the Queen of Cups regarding their sexual rights. The past indicates struggles in the government for women's rights which we have achieved in the present. The King of Wands is a force who wants to change things to a dogmatic religious conventions. Being that the card that indicates this, the Hierophant is reversed indicates there are conflicts within the religious community about this.

The Ace of Cups crossing the King of Wands means there are forces that will resist this man. I don't know if the Queen of Cups is an individual, like Hillary Clinton or Barbara Boxer, maybe, or feminist women in a force fighting this trend to take away their rights. If the Queen of Cups is an individual, she is a powerful political figure.

Death reversed. Okay since the movement of the religous right, to strip women of their reproductive rights, will be met with resistance, then it seems there will be a stalemate in the religious right's ability to achieve these ends because powerful women in office or powerful feminist organization will keep them from doing it permanently. So the upside down death card indicates a delay in these trends. I would rather have seen an end but a delay right now is at least better than them achieving success in these goals.

I am glad you did this because when I first looked at this I thought about sexual rights but I rejected it because I saw the queen of cups as opposing the king of wands so I thought it was insight into his thinking. He see himself as a loved or as a loving leader. I think your take on this has merit though.

i totally lost that in reading it. but what a profound reading. y'know, i'm the type that believes the reading is *extreme* shorthand for a whole plethora of factors and their interactions, thus adding layer upon layer of meaning if diligent study was applied. i fully believe that the cards hold at least several readings in the whole of the spread and i think you've found a profound one.

wow, and just when we are finding out that the judicial system doesn't seem to be acting as insane as we expected at the moment. perhaps you are right, Roe v. Wade shall stand, galvanize a new generation of feminists, and a great battle within this epic war shall be fought with a victory on the side of women's rights. makes me more hopeful, not everything is lost immediately. hope, light, within the darkness.

First a reading with justice reversed, now death is reversed! This does not look good! Justice is being denied and now Death is being held at bay! If Death had been upright, I might have been a little happier because it would, perhaps, indicate an ending of the dire situation!

I guess I need to get off my fat butt and do one. I will post when I get it done!

BB!

You don't think this means the guy will stay in power another term do you. OMG! You got me thinking. Hummm. Still, one could read it that way.
:scared:

Please do a reading if you can. I have not had the energy or the guts to do one yet. I am clinging to hope and I find the unknown a comfort.

...I think he will (or rather, his advisors) will hold onto power, but it will be a very nasty scene. I have felt that something big is coming and they (the thieves) will not go quietly. However, with the elections "over," there will be no "real" enemy. Thus, I see Death being held at bay. However, I don't feel they will be able to hold off what is about to come!

yet more clinging to old, outmoded ways of thinking and being.

depressing in the end position. it's...inconclusive. at least it wasn't the Tower, I guess...

gonna bust out my best seeded set and report back the layout. gonna do a 3 cut flip pre-layout past/present/future clarifier, then a 13 card celtic spread (last three cards are another clarifiers). if another 4 major arcana show i'll do a major arcana layout. be right back.

a card fell out in the middle of shuffling:
Strength R

pre-deal three part cut clarifier:

past - Queen of Pentacles R
present - 2 of Cups R
future - The Moon

Celtic Cross + Clarifier:

1. 4 of Wands
2. Death R
3. 8 of Wands
4. 5 of Cups
5. 7 of Cups
6. 8 of Swords R
7. 9 of Wands R
8. 9 of Pentacles R
9. Knight of Cups
10. The Chariot R
-----
11. Emperor
12. Page of Pentacles R
13. Knight of Swords

less than 4 major arcana in Celtic Cross proper, no major arcana reading.

this is odd, i wasn't really expecting this. maybe it's the tarot's way of telling me to not be a spazz and chill already, it's taken care of. interpretations anybody?

edit: this reads like some personal reading... i don't understand. no music, quiet meditation on the question, everything i could do to keep it focused. and yet this? i guess it really is a message to stop being a spazz about what's coming and reapply my energies in other circles. hmm, still not pleased about that.

This is the THIRD reading to have a major arcana in the reverse position! In the upright it can represent a hard-won victory, reversed it would imply it is a 'hollow' victory...my guess, based on deceit!

Later, I will give this reading a more through "look over." I do notice though, in all of your readings, all the pentacles are reversed. Is an economic disaster looming? Will that be what undoes this administration?

Thanks for putting this reading up!

"I do notice though, in all of your readings, all the pentacles are reversed. Is an economic disaster looming? Will that be what undoes this administration?"

it seems to coincide with the miasmic, stagnation feeling i'm receiving off of just about every reading i'm seeing. it coincides with the vibe the world seems to be giving off, and it coincides with the fears many observant watchers of economic politics are noticing. i wouldn't be half surprised. gold, silver, and foreign land are starting to look better and better.

apologies for the personal seeming nature of this reading, i think something of me 'leaked' into the questioning, against all my precautions. or perhaps i'm overlooking something and missing who the 'court' players really are. i'd appreciate your assessment.

edit: whoa... perhaps there is going to be a 'savior' that knight of cups in the key position along with the in-spread clarifier seems to be pointing to an important messenger. that'd be the third time such a thing appears in 3 spreads! at first i was doubtful... but that's deeply unusual.

Card falling out means you are in too big of a hurry maybe? :)
A little patience the cards say.

The idea that we are safe and secure is an illusion. (if you were thinking of the country.) If you were thinking of Bush then I'd say he isn't so safe and is living in a dream world.

The party is over. Bad news has come but it is not being revealed because it can't be fixed. (or so the flawed thinking goes.)
The idea is to keep up appearances that all is well but we can't trust this message of victory because it doesn't come from some one we can trust.

Our leader doesn't have a clue. He trusts what he is being told.

What exactly was your question? What were you thinking? I sure would like the bad news to be for Bush and not for our nation.

a rather nebulous 'wisdom of the tarot' type of question. sorry, that should have been the first thing i post :dunce:

surprisingly i don't often shuffle fast (though i can). and this, being particularly slow and methodical due to its importance, was a rather surprising drop. usually such drops i include, sometimes a message must be conveyed immediately, i think. it fell face down too, like the importance of flipping it over was part of its importance.

i was surprised to see Strength R, i'll tell you that. to see the one symbol that could possibly mean 'civil disobedience' was quite shocking. basically 'don't surrender,' yet don't be domineering, and don't be distressful. to use the strength of harmony and resilience to go forth and stand for what is believed to be right. talk about a real shocker!

I like that message. Then maybe our knight of cups is some fringe type.(blogger or researcher) that has the goods on Bush's fake victory.
That would be sweet.:evilgrin:

The general theme I get from that, though, is weakened or scattered energies. Things fall apart, etc. More stagnation crossing the four of wands, which is a movement card; short-term outcome is a reversed eight of swords, which isn't bad, actually (upright, it's the classic "immobility through confusion and fear" card; reversed is when she takes the blindfold off and begins to see her way clearer to a solution)--but then the outcome is the reversed chariot. Which, depending on your point of view, may not be such a bad thing either; anyway, it certainly seems likely. That is: if you understand the chariot as a sort of "Alexander the Great" card, forward motion in the external world through sheer strength of will and projected confidence, (and, according to Rachel Pollack, a black and white worldview)--then the reversal is where the wheels start coming off. Considering where this particular chariot is trying to go, even running off the road is probably preferable in the final analysis. And there's very little that I can read either in these card spreads or in real life events or anything that suggests otherwise.

Anyway, most of these readings feel like "snapshots" of the moment. If this is truly where we'll end up in four years--it feels like the same as now, only more so, pretty much.

Just now noticed you where the one that mentioned "snapshots." I credited that to someone else in one of my last posts but I see now that it was you. Very much agree with this and many of your other insights.

Hi,

I also did a reading for the US back on the 10th of November, I shared it with a couple friends and thought I’d jump in the fray here and post it. What the hell. It was a little more optimistic than I actually expected.

I used a horoscope pattern for this reading, each card representing the area covered by the corresponding house. I chose the 10th house position to represent the President.

Caveat: I use the Rider-Waite deck, I don’t read the cards upside down, and often get intuitive impressions from the images that aren’t necessarily the traditional meanings. Also some of the interpretations come from combination of cards rather than a card by card reading. Feedback and alternative interpretations are very welcome.

Cards & (position meanings):
1. 7 of swords (how the US is presented to the world, image)
2. page of wands (finances)
3. ace of cups (communications & the press)
4. 3 of pentacles (the country in general. land issues)
5. 2 of wands (entertainment, children)
6. page of swords (employment, labor, health)
7. 2 of cups (foreign relations, open enemies)
8. The Star (death, taxes, other people’s money)
9. 9 of swords (law, education)
10. 8 of swords (i pre-chose this house to represent the presidency)
11. King of Cups (hopes & fears)
12. 8 of cups (hidden enemies)

Well, I think the world sees what’s going on here better than our own press. The 7 of swords is sneaky, I think people view the US as sneakily circumventing world consensus and the United Nations. Also, I think it’s almost taken for granted that the election was rigged. But when this is coupled with other cards – the 2 of cups in the 7th house & 8 of swords in the 10th I’m actually hopeful that much of this will come to light and we will redeem ourselves with our allies.

The 8 of swords in the 10th very much indicates foul play concerning the election – it is a card representing interference. I also see it as an indication of the Bush administration eventually being caught, even people going to prison. Although I’m not entirely sure if this will happen in time for Kerry to become president. The King of Cups in the 11th might represent Kerry, or someone else who is appointed after the 9 & 8 of swords plays out. I think the 9 of swords in the 9th indicates some very painful court cases – perhaps with all the current media inattention, when the criminality of the Bush administration comes to light, in court, a lot of people may become very disillusioned and upset. It could even be the international court. Things might really crumble for them.

Economically, I’m thinking that things won’t be so bad. The 3 of pentacles in the 4th house leads me to believe that unemployment will stay pretty low and The Star in the 8th makes me think that even though there is talk of countries selling off US debt that this won’t manifest. I am a little confused by the Page of Wands & Page of Swords in the 2nd and 6th respectively. What I’m thinking this might mean is that the way people begin to frame the deficit and taxes will be in terms of young people and future generations: “the birth tax” as George Lakoff put it. I think this will be pushed in the news quite a bit.

I find the Ace of Cups in the 3rd interesting. On one hand I see this as very positive, the media kind of redeeming itself. But at the same time this was one of those instances where the image looked like something else – the rider-waite deck shows a hand holding a cup with 5 streams flowing from it. I got the impression of one central agency disseminating information that flowed out in seemingly different streams, and almost sugar coating things. I think that both these interpretations might be possible.

I see the 2 of wands going two ways as well, the globe in the man’s hand on this card really popped out and I can see US media & entertainment trying to dominate the world, but also I see more foreign media and entertainment coming into American mainstream as well. In fact I think the trend will be more and more globalization through entertainment. Kids might really become more interested in the world at large through entertainment. For some reason the fact that Quentin Tarantino is making a film in Mandarin Chinese came to mind.

that's my .02 for what it's worth

What was the question?

it was a reading for the US. wasn't that clear in my post? a general reading about the state of things now and in the next couple years. also i was focusing on the outcome of things surrounding the election.

Right off it looks like a creative plan to steal the election.

how are you coming up with that interpretation?

The first card. it looks like what to you? It is a card often representing a theft or a deception. I think since this is the first card that is how I would read it. I think you said something about this card being sneaky. But for this position I think a noun is in order. It is a subject position. I see the first two cards as a thief with a plan or a planed theft. Maybe this is how the world sees us or maybe this is about the election. That's why I asked about the question. This is just my take.

while i think a person can do an adequate reading by sticking to classic book interpretations, I really think that to read well you need to use the cards as a starting point for your intuition. That makes it almost impossible for a person to come along later and reinterpret the reading, especially by just reading a list of the cards.

You are correct in saying that the 7 of swords indicates theft - in the context of this reading that is true. The page of wands has nothing to do with this though. This position, representing the first house has to do with appearances; how the subject of the reading (the U.S.)is viewed by the world.

The election is one of the first things that comes to mind, but it represents more than just that. It is the overall view of how the US is being seen. Theft of the election, lying to the United Nations about WMD, invading Iraq for oil and corporate interests. That's how we're being seen right now, how we are being defined in the eyes of the world. Liars and thieves.

If you look at the 7 of swords in the Waite deck you will see a group of people seated together off in the distance. That popped out at me doing this reading. I think that foreign leaders are conferring (behind the back of the US) on how to prevent the US from invading Iran and basically how to rein in the US in a way that won't be overtly confrontational.

While this card in itself isn't very good, I see it as representing the present and near future. Now look at the 2 of cups in the 7th house - this is representing foreign relations. This is a very positive card. The world loving us. I would say that present reality is more like the 7 of swords, not the 2 of cups - but i predict that something will happen to change that.

I really do think that a lot is going to happen to not only reveal the dishonesty of the Bush administration but also punish their criminality. In the eyes of the world the country at large will be seen as separate from and even victimized by this administration. I also think that once this starts happening, once trouble starts for them, it will snowball. I imagine they must have many enemies and once their power starts to crumble, their enemies will come out of the woodwork. Unfortunately, I think it will take some time for all this to happen and that Bush will need to get into a second term for all this 'karma' to play out for him. I see that in the reading by the 8 of swords in the 10th - he gets the presidency, which will ultimately bring his downfall, and the King of Cups, a person who inspires the ideals of this nation, will follow him as the next president. I would love to see this play out sooner, before the inauguration, but I'm not holding my breath.

I have been reading tarot for almost 35 years, semi-professionally for over 20 of those years. I have a good track record of accuracy reading for individuals, but this is the first reading I've done for an 'entity' as abstract as a nation. It will be interesting to look back at these readings in a year or two.

I call them as I see them. I see the two of wands as a plan there.
I was reading cards before I learned to read. I think I understand the nature of how it works. I feel confident in my abilities but I agree, since they are your cards and your question, that you are free to make your own call and it should be most right but you put it on the board for others to look at and I did. Also I see the two of cup as a connection here. Not "love." they don't love us but they know their future and past and present is tied to us and they must deal with us. I really didn't see this as good. In fact I read the last two cards as Kerry loses. We all bring different talents to the tarot that is why I think it is fun and very interesting to compare our work.

first off, you're not really taking into account the type of spread this is, or paying attention to the meaning of the card positions. The 5th house doesn't have anything to do with the issue of the election.

I would rather see you do a reading of your own and post the results, which I believe you said you were going to do in an earlier post. I don't think you can get an intuitive feel from just looking at a writeup of someone else's spread. In a previous post someone mentioned how the tarot is a visual medium and I think that's correct. You need to look at them and let the pictures speak to you, they won't say the say thing everytime. At least that's been my experience.

And yes, I did invite feedback. Since we're talking about the future, none of this can be verified at this point anyway, so I see no point in arguing about it.

I laid your cards out in your spread with my cards and took a look at it. I didn't do it wrong because if you know the tarot then you know there is no wrong. Just a different sight.
I'll do a reading when I am ready and I have not been.
If you don't want others to comment on your spread then don't share it. I wasn't arguing with you. I was sharing my thoughts and sight. Sorry if it upset you. :shrug:

I'm wondering though, if you took the time to lay out the cards of my spread, and possibly the other spreads you took the time to reinterpret, why you didn't just do a reading of your own?

I also don't think you understand the spread I used.

and I think I stated it earlier is I just didn't want to look. Sometimes the tarot is like your mother telling you what you should know but don't want to hear. My question, the one that has been in my mind for weeks, is about the election. I worked hard for many years and put my money and my heart into it and I am not ready for it to be over and I didn't want to be told that especially from the cards. Sorry if you don't understand but that is the reason. Also, reading takes a lot of energy. All the power is in asking the question. It comes from the seeker IMO not the reader. I was gaining insight from the power of others. Because I didn't have any of my own. I thank others and you for sharing your power with me and all here.
I don't use the spread you used much but I do know it. It is very flexible and can be read in many ways. Like one could look (for example) as each card representing a moon or month instead of a house.
Don't see why me seeing different things means that I don't understand the spread. Don't know why it should mean anything at all. We are all different with no two people seeing the same exact thing. That's the fun of sharing isn't it?

I finally did a reading. Take a look below. It's a Celtic cross. We are all probably familiar with that one. Since you did your spread some time ago why not give us a fresh one to look at. Maybe you could do a cross too if you think your 12 card spread too hard for some of us to understand.

about the election. i've been very upset and worried too.

thanks for doing the reading you posted below. it *does* take a lot of courage to put these things up on a public forum. i'm looking forward to reading your interpretation. Interesting to see the Moon card where it is. I usu sally read that card as deception and/or confusion.

i kind of think doing a reading happens in the moment you throw it. I don't know about you, but I do a certain amount of ritual before I read. I can look back at the reading and maybe add some detail or clarity, but for me, the intuitive info happens in the moment. That's just the way I do things. Probably different for everyone.

Since I don't really know much about astrology, I won't comment, but thanks for putting this up and your interpretation because it shed more light on these things.

Unfortunately I'm not sure it's very optimistic for John Kerry. Although he might be in the picture in some way, or at some time. My *desire* is to see him inaugurated in January, but I'm not sure (from this reading) that it will happen. But what comes out of this will possibly be even better. I think the Bush family/cartel have been involved in so much crime over the years. I think the reading is optimistic that Bush will eventually get his comeuppance, and this will help America's position in the world. On the other hand, even with Bush padding the votes, I'd say that still close to half the votes went to Bush - maybe 47%? So when all this deceit comes out, in the courts, we're going to have half the population upset and disillusioned.

The other thing I think is optimistic, and this is something that's been worrying me so I was relieved to see this, is the economy. I don't think it will become nearly as grim as some people have been predicting.

I am not an astrologer. I read some stuff but don't actively engage in any of it. What I have done is mostly charts for me and my husband and my daughter and her husband.

My sister used to do tarot readings some.

For the most part, I am fascinated by this and think there is much merit to it.

I enjoyed reading this thread. Thanks again.

I have been reading since I was a little girl. I have respect for the cards but it is seen as pretty "out there" by many. Astrology can be seen as a kind of science. Glad to know there are those with an open mind.

Ok, I finally took a look. Took a lot of energy and courage for me to finally do it. Thanks to all for their work. It has really helped me. I usually read with an Albano-Waite Tarot deck but I couldn't find it. I have many decks though in a big drawer. Each one is wrapped in a piece of silk. I just reach in and grabbed one. This one is the Sacred Rose tarot deck. It was a gift from my mother and sister. They picked it up for me in a shop in New Orleans. I have used it many times and it is well worn and I have had good successes with it.

I'll post the cards. I'll note the reverses for those that read them.
I'll let you look at them with you mind untainted by my interpretations and then I will give you my thoughts on them.

My question was about the election. What happened and what will come as a result of it?

1. seven of wands
2. the moon
3.ten of wands
4.two of wands
5. knight of pentacles
6. the judgment
7. queen of wands (R)
8. Temperance
9. queen of pentacles (R)
10. the high priestess (R)

Well first. Isn't it interesting that there are 4 major arcana cards again! There must be meaning here between the readings. What I don't know but I plan the look at this more. The cups have been few and far between and now there are none! Power and money. That's what this is about. Not truth at all. I do get the idea as Cleita said, that we are looking at snap shots here.

I get the feeling we have been fighting the wrong fight. We have been fighting to get votes and we should have been fighting to make sure they would be counted. I think the plan was to steal it all along. I think that we were just not ready for a fraud of this scale. It seems clear that Bush won through deception. They were stealing it with all kinds of ways and methods. More than we expected. Too much to keep up with. I don't think Bush will get away clean. I believe that Judgment card is for him. His power comes from spending other people's money. When the money runs out he is in for some payback and won't be seen as such a great guy. But, this man reacts to bad news with bold aggression. If he is threatened expect another war or the threat of violence.

BTW. I think the first reading is already coming true. In those cards I saw a man with many talents bringing a message of hope. For some maybe it was Nader. For me it came true today with Jesse Jackson on Cnn using the F word.

What's your take on the High Priestess as the final card?

It is an interesting card there isn't it. Reversed, just like all the last cards of the other readings. Also a major arcana like in the other readings. Pretty spooky right there. I do think like you do that there is magic in asking the question and then casting the cards but I believe there are layers of meaning and to find them takes study. I first took it as the absence of reason and with the other cards I thought it looked like big trouble. Also see it in regards to the election as a mystery a secret that is yet to be discovered, a big one.

see it as truth and wisdom turned on its head. What do you think? I would be interested in all thoughts

the feminine principle of spirituality, faith, the counterbalance of heirophant, the masculine principle of spirituality, dogma. faith has been turned on its head. intuitive understanding of others -- aka empathy, shall be perverted into callousness. true feminine spiritual principle has been so long abandoned the only expression left comes from false faith, blind faith -- aka. fanaticism. this is a hard monster to fight.

seeing heirophant R previously in another layout makes this clearer. dogma turned on its head, corrupted and sold to the unwitting. now the job is cementing complete with the rise of fanaticism, a now global problem, but one that will come home to rest in this country.

theocratic fascism is coming. our past critics were right, the form of fascism that would take this country has arrived. this is an implacable foe: impossible to reach, impossible to assuage, impossible to ignore. it only understands destruction and obedience.

pray that i'm wrong. i know i am doing so.

though.

I understand your concern and I see where your interpretations are coming from, but I also think that the Tarot is enigmatic and multilayered; and that you have to take the entire context of both the spread and the actual situation into account.

Well, on first glance I was immediately drawn to the two reversed queens in the future. These are very powerful but not nice women, especially after the Judgement card. The Temperance card that separates them makes it seem like there are other forces trying to keep a lid on things happening between them, trying to keep a situation from exploding. Now the Queen of Pentacles could be Condaleeza Rice our emerging Secretary of State. I believe the Knight of Pentacles is the departing Secretary of State, Colin Powell. He is still in the sphere of influence but it is passing into the past.

The Queen of Wands is in the position of someone we should fear, but who she is is not clear to me. Upright this woman could be Hillary Clinton, but reversed she is a person of rigid values and puritanical rules. Whoever she is, those who surround the two are trying to keep them apart although they are apparently in the same camp.

The Judgement card pointing to the future along with the four Major Arcana cards indicates that the forces of the universe are interjecting themselves into this future. I certainly hope so. The Moon crossing the Seven of Wands indicates the struggle the wands indicate in the past and that the feminine forces of the universe are taking notice.

This brings me to the High Priestess reversed. The High Priestess in about thing hidden and secret, not always obvious and concrete. Reversed and together with the Moon, it is a kick ass indication that SHE is pissed. I think we will start seeing a revolution occurring in the female sector, a place that the white men Republican's club, currently in power, won't see coming because of their arrogance.

Some interesting things! I really think we are on to something here. Thanks so much for starting this thread.

Oh BTW, I can tell you that I sure am pissed too! lol

The Queen of Wands is in the position of someone we should fear, but who she is is not clear to me. Upright this woman could be Hillary Clinton, but reversed she is a person of rigid values and puritanical rules. Whoever she is, those who surround the two are trying to keep them apart although they are apparently in the same camp.

Lynne Cheney.

:shrug: Every time I think of her, I think of Angela Landsbury in the original Manchurian Candidate.

:hippie:

The only problem is that she isn't around Shrubby and Condi that much as far as I know. Reading Kitty Kelly's book, it appears that Barbara didn't have much say about anything with her family that didn't involve house and home. As Shrubby's mother though she would be very powerful where he's concerned.

Of course if she stays in Crawford when the Bush's and Condi are there on "working vacations" there could be a conflict. Barbara seems to have a rude and tart tongue on her and she would be the only woman that Shrubby couldn't get slapped down to size by his goons.

I even thought fleetingly of Laura Bush, but Laura is not powerful like this woman seems to be. It could be that the mystery indicated by the Priestess card means that we aren't going to know about this for awhile even while it plays out in real life.

Karen Hughes. I didn't think the queens were people but one could read it that way. I thought it sounded like Karen Hughes. Think about that. Karen, as the story goes, went in to tell Bush he lost. BUT he didn't lose. She thought he did. Maybe she knows he did. Maybe she is asking questions.

Karen Hughes left the WH for a reason and it could have been a conflict with Condi, who seems to be with Shrub 24/7. I guess there wasn't room for two queens in the castle. However, she has been managing a lot of Bush's affairs from behind the scenes in Texas. Maybe she is about to reemerge more powerful than ever. With Condi as Sec. of State, she will be forced to travel a lot and Shrub is gonna need someone to burp him every now and then. Betcha she goes back to Washington.

I'm not saying the cards couldn't be actual people; I'm just not seeing it here, I guess. I feel like the question was broader and more long-term than that, somehow.

what you said about the high priestess is insightful - "in regards to the election as a mystery a secret that is yet to be discovered". Do you think that means that secret will be uncovered? Or do you think after some initial problems for Bush (the Judgment card) things will get covered over again? How do you read reversals, the opposite of the upright meaning or a lesser version of the upright meaning, or some other way?

Cleita, what you said about the 2 queens is really interesting. Do you read the 9th card as just fears or 'hopes and fears'? More importantly to this reading is how indigo11153 reads that position. (?)

I don't know but I think this card and the other cards from other readings are trying to speak to us. Justice denied. Death stopped, growth denied. Now all wisdom rejected. The laws of nature will not allow this will they? Just like Bush's win it seems impossible. All action has a reaction. For every force a force rises to meet it and Bush and Co. are reaping some monster Karma. I think the cards are telling us not to stop. Don't give up. Have hope and patience. Keep fighting, this is a good fight and the laws of nature are on our side even if all the Bush law is against us.

I read a reverse if I see one. They are all accidents. I am careful with my decks and read them upright but if some get reversed by accident I leave them but if I notice one before I read that is reversed I upright it. So all reverses in the deck are special. I see them that way. Calling out for me to make special note of them. I reverse the cards first meaning and double the second. So. If the high priestess is my card of higher reason and wisdom then that would be opposite. the second meaning, hidden knowledge or mystery becomes big secret. That is how I do it.

The double reversed queens stand out and I thought went together. I thought it was insight about what we are up against. Power and money, force and greed. I know the classical positions but I look more at the relationship of the card to each other to tell me what they mean where. Hope that helps.

7 wands and moon speak of voter fraud, pretty plain. 7 wands equivalent of election and there were some subterfuge around it. easy enough. this leads to the base of the situation where there feels to be an unbearable weight, burden to still bear. no one is 'relieved' by the outcome -- and this is already noticeable on both sides of the political divide.

2 wands reinforces a fork in the road, decision of leadership, that has just passed. Knight of Pentacles looks to me like Kerry, oddly enough. not exactly the King of Pentacles to come and lead a whole nation forward into greatness from disaster through proper application of our resources. he would have done great things, but for all his energy it wouldn't have been enough. his effort would have been admirable, but merely worthy of a knight. and yet this was who was hoped/dreamed to win.

judgement coming in the near future. now if there was ever a card welcome and unwelcome at the same time at that position. i want judgement pronounced, but i'm also a bit afraid at the same time, the ramifications are going to be big, hence major arcana there being more to this result. otherwise pretty apparent reading.

2 upside-down complementary queens, in complementary positions. now here's a surprise! active impulse vs. material result. fear vs. hope. etc. facinating parallels. and yet both are reversed, even more fascinating! Q of wands: fear of powermongering for personal embellishments, demanding so much that we are overstretched, ruthlessly strict in behavior. oh yes, there's a lot of that fear already going on about this administration. an interesting representative to this might be Barbara Bush. and they say that W. is if anything his mother's son (very much alike, spiteful, vindictive, cruel).

temperance is the world's manner that they will use to deal with us. there's more to this though, it isn't mere complacency or acceptance. it's looking for a way to deal with us, counteract us even, without overt displays of challenge. it is the shades of future meaning, and its importance on our lives, why this card is major and speaks of world opinion having a nuanced response. americans have never been all that good with nuance -- we are at a disadvantage when the whole world decides to play this game. much will come from this new stance.

Q of pentacles: paranoia, laziness, neglection of duties. can't find a better description for what's going on as of late. and yet paranoia and neglection of national internal affairs is heralded as a virtue in these modern times by our sanctioned media. what an appropriate placement, it says so much. atop all this, it shows the key to this reading, and the possibility to avoid conclusion. by embracing the neglection of duties and paranoia in a civilian light we might find escape! by embracing the neglection of our 'shop-'til-you-drop' lifestyle and embracing the 'paranoia' into saving material goods and setting ourselves in a safe, lower key lifestyle we can better weather the storms ahead while effecting real change by denying robust resources to this mad machine. i could not have thought of a better card to place and where to place it. it speaks so clearly with layered meaning, encapsulating beautifully the current state of our nation.

already posted about my view of high priestess R, it was none too happy. a horrible fate that has great ramifications that cannot be fully seen at this time without a deeper reading. it would be a huge path shift for this nation. thankfully the key card (9th place) shows how we can go about challenging this outcome and it happens to coincide with what an almost international consciousness has come up with -- starve the beast, spare the lamb; a more conscious way of shopping and living.

it rings so similar to what everyone's layouts seem to show. frightening isn't it?

we need some major arcana readings now. 4 for 4 readings with 4 or more major arcana present. this is serious stuff and beyond the ken of mere minor temporal symbols. real deep meditation must come now to guide us in these volatile hours.

On edit: actually, if you don't use reversed cards (I don't, myself), then perhaps that does make more sense. But to me she represents "abundance," both economically but also in a more "simple pleasures" kind of way. Why would we collectively feel ambiguous about this? Pondering.

Anyway, there's a fair amount of female energy here, again (particlarly if you count the moon as feminine), and a *lot* of wands.

I think I like that "outside influences/how the world perceives you" is "temperance." In this context I'd interpret this as the rest of the world takes a "watch and wait" attitude toward the U.S., keeping a wary eye but not doing much else. Also, that there are more temperate forces outside of here, which would be a relief.

The High Priestess...

You know, again and again I feel like we're encountering the theme of "retreat and self-examine." Confusion, stagnation, and contemplation. Retreat. Perhaps the former two come partly from the fact that as a nation we're not so good at that contemplation thing. But certainly for the left, at least, it's a moment of "where do we go from here? wait, first of all, where are we now, how did we get here, where do we *want* to go, and who *are* we, anyway?

As for everyone else, not least the administration...well, you have it right there in one and two. Seven of wands, which is "fighting too many enemies," "too aggressive," crossed by...the moon. Confusion, illusion. Not a great place to be in, if you're a wanna-be emperor. It's also about deep, unconscious, primal feelings. I think most Americans are sensing this and getting scared by it. At any rate, I think I feel happy that it's in the position of crossing the over-aggro; it says, to me, that at some level they/we (the administration, and maybe even the national unconscious) at this point) is at some unconscious level sabotaging its own efforts in this regard, and indeed maybe secretly "hopes and fears..." failure. We fight so hard, so hard. What is it that we're struggling to maintain? Our image? And why is it that "we" have twice now chosen (or, well, close enough) a President who seems to undercut everything he says he stands for? Maybe the High Priestess knows. Something long hidden is coming to the surface. And in the near future, Judgment. Resurrection after having been profoundly transformed. A small one. But still.

i am lovin' it. thank you all for your incredible interpretations. i feel that i am learning alot about tarot by listening to your intuitions about the spreads that have been done.

I'd like to do another reading specifically about the election results and what might happen regarding the (probable) fraud. I don't feel like a celtic cross will really address the question very well, at least for me anyway. What i usually do in a situation where the typical spreads I use don't fit with the question is define the things I want to find out and design a spread around that.

I was thinking we could do this together and anyone interested could use the spread and post their results.

Any interest? What questions would you like to address?

Some that I have:
Was there deliberate, widespread fraud?
What's Bush's position in this?
What's Kerry's position in this?
If there was fraud, will it be discovered?
If there was fraud, what will happen to the perpetuators?
Will the results turn around, or will Bush get to serve out his 4 years?

It served me so well that I didn't learn any other way of doing it. However, I was looking at the Tree of Life that is recommended to be done only once a year although I have never done it.

Why don't you pick a question and go first? I would be interested in seeing what you do. This old dog is still able to learn new tricks. Maybe you should start a new thread. This one is starting to move slowly.

it's just when i think of using the celtic cross for this question a couple of the positions seem fuzzy to me. I'm not sure how to read the crowning card, or the 7th card - who does that represent, usually it represents the querent. and the 9th - whose hopes & fears?

I have a couple of general spreads i like a lot better than the celtic cross. i could share them with you if you're interested.

I think you can scratch the first question. I think my reading was all about that. Very clear. The answer is yes and it is big. Bigger than we imagine.

fraud it is. the question then is: will they get caught? will the election be overturn?

any others? i'll design a spread if others are interested and come up with questions.

i'll start this in a new thread if there is interest.

I think we should think of finishing what we started. We have four spreads that were done with the cross. They all seemed linked.We don't have one from you kineta and I still wanted Lovebug to do one (great insight there) also was Behind the Aegis going to get in here with a cross? I hate to stop a good thing when is seems to be leading somewhere. I think if you want try a different spread in a different thread that would be good.I will try to help but let us keep this one open to finish the project that was started.

It seems really appropriate to George Bush himself. Like his father, he often indavertently contradicts himself with his own body language; he's the master of the Freudian slip. ("The terrorists never stop thinking of new ways to harm our country, and neither do we," or however exactly that went, you remember).

If Bush is the symbol of the U.S.--and I suppose like it or not, voter fraud or not, to a large degree he is, at least a good chunk of us, otherwise he wouldn't be there--then, what does that say? That the national character of America, like Bush himself, is not exactly good at that self-knowledge thing, and are not very attuned to the internal world--psychology, spirit too (for all the blather and posturing about GAWD). Which is a pity, because what's happening now, I think, is that a lot of collective unconscious material, long dormant while we all played the stock market or made Hollywood movies or explored outer space or whatever--is bubbling to the surface. So naturally we chose (well, some people did...) the most unconscious person imaginable to lead us.

What's especially interesting is that the Bush administration so obviously is not going to accomplish a single thing they say they're going to; their track record proves it. And yet, people cling to the fantasy. Why is that? Is it because people need so desperately to believe that WE'RE NUMBER ONE!! AMERICA! LAND OF THE FREE, THE EQUAL, THE STRONG, THE BRAVE!! LAND OF OPPORTUNITY!! we'll just automatically turn to the person who shouts it loudest, even if that person is, in reality, a plutocratic, yet incompetent, fiscally irresponsible, cowardly, weak, narrow-minded, violent little turd?

Or, I'm now thinking, more and more...is it because, at some really deep level, something there is in the American unconscious that really *wants* to stop being NUMBER ONE all the time, because goddammit, it's just too much fucking pressure. The American Dream isn't working. Hasn't been working that great for a while, even before Bush, to tell the truth. Never really was *all* that it was supposed to be, although sure, there were good things about it, things that really worked. But...what's that saying? "The Burden of Being Upright."

Maybe, ultimately, this is why all empires fail. Why people ovverreach and then fall. Because at some secret level they *want* to. The tragedy is not in the fall, but in the fact that the faller couldn't think of a gentler way to come back down.

Card #1 – Five of Wands, R
Card #2 - The Wheel of Fortune
Card #3 – Four of Swords
Card #4 – The Magician, R
Card #5 – The Page of Cups
Card #6 – The Nine of Wands, R
Card #7 – The Ten of Swords, R
Card #8 – The Star, R
Card #9 – Five of Swords, R
Card #10- Justice, R

01: King of Wands, reversed.
02: Ace of Wands, reversed.
03: Two of Swords.
04: The Emperor.
05: Six of Cups.
06: The Hierophant, reversed.
07: Six of Swords.
08: The Lovers, reversed.
09: Queen of Cups.
10: Death, reversed.

1. 4 of Wands
2. Death R
3. 8 of Wands
4. 5 of Cups
5. 7 of Cups
6. 8 of Swords R
7. 9 of Wands R
8. 9 of Pentacles R
9. Knight of Cups
10. The Chariot R

1. seven of wands
2. the moon
3.ten of wands
4.two of wands
5. knight of pentacles
6. the judgment
7. queen of wands (R)
8. Temperance
9. queen of pentacles (R)
10. the high priestess (R)

we each need to do another reading expounding on our conclusion cards.

now since it's a major arcana card i'm inclined in doing a major arcana spread to clarify. but i'll also do a celtic cross on my card as well (so we can all be on the same page).

So, I'm taking my Chariot R and doing another reading to clarify -- and i'm going to make it another topic (so this one won't get bogged down).

i invite others to do the same in clarifying their conclusion card and posting it up in the new topic.

Then I will do both.

some use celtic cross with major arcana only, i think it doesn't work as well, too much to meditate on. major arcana are serious stuff.

here's one that i enjoyed. 7 cards, pretty simple, in the form of a V.

1 4
2 5
3 6
7

1 = fear, anxiety, inner thoughts (particularly like inner thoughts)
2 = opinion of others, external forces
3 = hope, dreams, outer attitude (favor outer attitude here, too)
4 = past (or previous cause/raw material)
5 = present (or current process/catalyst)
6 = future (or immediate effect/product)
7 = outcome (can potentially mean shift of path on tree of life)

seems simple enough, but this is where the 'layers of meaning' come into serious play. enjoy! :D

you just keep it in mind and use all the Major Arcana cards?

and you can use it as that. i often like to keep it in mind because sometime that symbol might be needed again to represent a particular aspect in relation to the spread -- but it's personal taste. :)

if you feel a calling that Justice R needs to sit in front of you to get better vibrations and focus for the reading i would go with what your intuition tells you.