Question about Depression

I was talking to a fellow today who revealed that he was bipolar.
I was trying to think of what culture it is that looks upon depression as part of a spiritual journey, rather than a 'dis-ease', but I went blank. Can someone help to jog my memory? I just mentioned it to him and he became very interested, but I couldn't remember where I had heard or read about it. I'd love to send him some info if someone knows more about this and knows some links or resources. He is on various medications but wonders if there might be another way to approach it. I don't know much about the medications, or if it would be wise to go off of them in order to more fully 'explore' the spiritual dimensions of his depression. He certainly isn't looking to me for that kind of medical advice (nor would I offer it).....but he would like to know more about this viewpoint and response to depression.

Any thoughts?

Here's one site I found with a google.
http://www.spirituallightjourneys.com/drritalouise.htm

It is a wonderful novel that takes quite a look at what passes for mental "health" in our world and in a future set utopia where people live much closer to the earth and much closer to emotions.

""Our madhouses are places where people retreat when they want to go down into themselves -- to collapse, carry on, see visions, hear voices of prophecy, bang on the walls, relive infancy -- getting in touch with the buried self and the inner mind. We all lose parts of ourselves. We all make choices that go bad....... How can another person decide that it is time for me to disintegrate, to reintegrate myself?" (p.60) "



Read a review here:
http://www.futures.hawaii.edu/j2/rosenthal.html

I highly recommend this book.


Laura

I found this once while looking for info on mental health and spirituality.

http://www.sfnsw.org.au/consumers/brahmanandra.htm


I went the conventional way with my problems for years (therapy with an open-minded to Astrology and spirituality psychiatrist, and years of medications) until I reached a point that I felt I had to find another way (off meds) in order to be able to develop and grow on a spiritual plane.

Homeopathy helped me out a lot here.

If someone were inerested I would pass info on, but would never recommend changing treatments....

:hi:

DemEx

about finding an alternative route?

I was not surprised when this fellow confided that he was bipolar.
I had already sensed a flatness about him.....there was no fire in his belly. No ground. I don't know whether that was his depression I was picking up on, or if the flatness was a result of the drugs. But it was clear that something important...something of himself...was simply missing in action. And it seemed to be on an emotional rather than intellectual level.

conventional treatment (long-term therapy) had run its course,(good insights but no lasting alleviation) and drugs were not helping. I felt imprisoned by the drugs even more than by the depression at a point. Side effects were horrendous on some meds (anti-Ds).....

I wanted to not be "flat" to my babies and children as they were growing up - as my Mom had been with me on her tranqulizers and alcohol - totally no substantive support from her in her state. :-(

General scepticism of scientific, reductionist approach to illness and health.

Growing need to try other routes especially in relation to spiritual needs and impulses.

Everyone I know who has gone on medication for anxiety or depression has lost "something" valuable (to me!) in the process which I actually mourn - but it is their life and choice and I respect, understand, and honor their path.

DemEx

reached this point. I haven't been in further contact with him since our meeting other than a single email. But I sensed that he was struggling with whether the drugs were serving him well.

So the drugs can create a 'flatness'? Or is that the depression?

There are clearly no easy answers. It is astounding that so many suffer some degree of depression in this country, and though a very individual problem I wonder if there is a common thread or source for this epidemic?

others, like myself, felt that a vital spark of myself was flattened out and deadened by meds.

This spark overlayed/blanketted by meds is what I detect in others on meds, but that could be my own projection as well.

Depression is very flattening of spirit as well.

There are no definitive answers to this IMO, and it is up to the individual how to approach/manage/treat their depression in their life.

A big factor IMO is the loss of any sense of community - this is deadly to the social animal spirit of humans, - the medicalising of birth has also set down patterns of alienation and rejection of the newborn's spirit (learned this through Primal therapy based on stress patterns established during (traumatic) birth and devastating separation from the Mother); and perhaps another ingredient is the spiritual need to clean house and address any unresoved conflicts within and without one's self, (karma too?) before evolution or ascension can be enacted or processed in one's life.

All of this IMHO! :D

DemEx

I have read some fascinating stuff about very early impressions and how they leave their indelible mark both on the psyche, the soul and can be recognized later in the structure, movement, problems that arise in the body itself. Recongnizable body types mirror the inner experience, trauma, etc. It's a way to work on our ingrained psychological patterns with some immediacy by working directly with the body. The body therapy that has emerged from these findings is called Core Energetics.

Maybe you've heard of Alexander Lowen's work. Two books of his are
The Language of the Body, and Joy - The surrender to the Body and to Life.

as I have done in my endeavors, therapies, regressions, readings and understandings. The emotional state of the mother (and this of course is affected by the relationship with the father and others in her life)possibly has lasting effect on the "becoming" person as well.

All of my work in this area has brought me to an unpopular for DU stance on abortion, as I can only support abortion in the very early weeks (up to 8-10 weeks, 12 max).

After regressions from in the womb how can I do otherwise?

I have not heard of Lowen's work - will look into it when I have more reading time. Thanks, Dover.

DemEx

http://www.webroots.org/library/usameds/peoap000.html:hi:

This link, written in late 1800s, contains an interesting perspective re: mental illness and spirituality. It is quite lengthy, but nonetheless a very good read.

My mom, now 76, has just been diagnosed as being bipolar. At first, we were all shocked by this news. She, apparently, is what's called unipolar that is she tends to have much more of the manic symptoms than the depressive ones. The way we found out was that she just would not stop driving, despite numerous accidents. That need to keep going, moving all the time (typical of mania)- even against any reasonable judgment is quite common with this condition.

Anyway, I have been searching for more natural, healing remedies for her, as well. I'm certain that there is a cure, as with all illnesses.

But, of course, it is the 'journey' that is ALL important.

I shall send you anything good that I find for him.

can you re-post?

:hi:

DemEx

http://www.webroots.org/library/usameds/peoap000.html

;-)

two things made a big difference (besides the usual grieving process which I got some therapy for).
A friend who had come to visit during that time was an acupuncturist and convinced me to try it for the first time. It was just remarkable in helping me to get aligned and feel more centered and peaceful. Of course it was only for a few days (around the time of the funeral) but it really helped me through this most difficult time.
I have sinced sought out accupuncture with some degree of regularity.

Also a homeopathic doctor who recognized my depressed state recommended that I take L-Tyrosine in combination with Kelp tablets once a day just before bed. I felt a change within only a few days. Just felt more even and balanced. This combo might not be as effective for severe forms of depression but I'll bet it would help anyone going through a milder form of it. Of course I'd consult with a doctor who is familiar with homeopathic treatments and not use it if I were on some other drug.

Prior to this, I had attempted, on my own, to get this result with St. John's wart, but it did not have the same effect...although no one had instructed me on its use, etc. so I was operating in the dark on that.

I'm so glad this person brought this issue to the fore, because in looking back at my own period of depression (though not bipolar) that was triggered by multiple losses occurring in quick succession, I am beginning to understand my own process and journey. So depression was/is a teacher. The dreams I had during that period were guides that I was not entirely able to comprehend while in the midst of things...but it has become much clearer now. Reminds me of that song:

I can see clearly now the rain has gone I can see all obstacles in my way Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind It's going to be a bright, bright sunshiney day...lol!

I found this article in my search on this subject which was meaningful for me and I hope will be for him. He had wondered if there was some connection between the process of depression and Kundalini:

THE DARKNESS BEFORE THE DAWN
© El Collie 2002

One thing that comes out in myths is that at the bottom of the abyss comes
the voice of salvation. The black moment is the moment when the real message
of transformation is going to come. At the darkest moment comes the light.

-- Joseph Campbell



Some parts of the spiritual journey feel as if we're lost in a wasteland,
not knowing where we are or where we're going, and wondering if we're just
traveling in circles. For long stretches of the journey, the quest requires
great self-investment for seemingly little in return. For individuals who
adhere to a particular spiritual discipline, commitment wavers during these
dry spells. For those in whom the Kundalini has autonomously risen, there is
no alternative, no possibility of backing out. Kundalini has Her own
unstoppable momentum. At times, despite the dynamism of this Force that has
reshaped our destiny, we sink into doubt. What began in fear or amazement
has gone through seasons of joy, hope, disillusionment, and despair. When,
we ask ourselves, does the process bear significant fruit? How long must we
suffer through the daily pummeling of body and psyche?

As weeks turn into months and years, our faith in the benevolence and
guiding presence of the Spirit is sorely tested. Radiant gifts of bliss,
beauty and unmistakable blessing are overshadowed by long sieges of pain,
torment and physical/emotional depletion. Even if we want to surrender to
the workings of the process, often we do not know how.

Charles Breaux says that after an initial six months of "incredible 'peak
experience,' the dross began spewing out" into his external life. He wrote:
"These last seven years have been one intense drama after another, the
deepest and darkest karmic patterns within me have been relentlessly
quickened by the power of Kundalini." At the end of his book Journey into
Consciousness, he confesses that he continues to wonder if the necessity for
letting go will ever cease.

Kundalini can give us wings to transcend the pettiness of the world, then
plunge us into the depths, daring us to find the treasure buried there as
well. In the beginning, when the Kundalini is moving upwards, Dr. R.P.
Kaushik said "it is a negative force -- it is destructive. It destroys all
your attachments, all your material possessions; it is destroying
everything," which can lead to "a dissatisfaction with everything you have."
Kaushik notes that such feelings of frustration and desperation intensify as
the energy works to clear through the six and seventh centers. "The yogis
have described this movement in a beautiful language," he continues: "The
serpent, when it awakens, starts devouring and eating everything that is in
its way. When it has gone to the crown center, then from there it descends
downwards, as a creative force -- the descending triangle or the Shakti
triangle. This is the positive movement..." (from The Ultimate
Transformation)

Spells of depression are a common feature of the transformational journey. I
am, in fact, in a funk as I write this. At times I doubt the value of
writing anything for this site and question the benefits of Kundalini. From
where I sit at this moment, it seems as if years of the process -- and of my
life in general, for that matter -- have been little more than an endurance
test.

In The Stormy Search for the Self, Christina and Stanislav Grof describe it
well:
"Not only do those facing such an existential crisis feel isolated, but they
also feel insignificant, like useless specks in a vast cosmos. The universe
itself appears to be absurd and pointless, and any human activities seem
trivial. Such people may see humankind as being involved in a rat-race
existence that has no useful purpose. From this vantage point, they cannot
see any kind of cosmic order and have no contact with a spiritual force.
They may become extremely depressed, despairing, and even suicidal.
Frequently, they have the insight that even suicide is no solution; it seems
there is no way out of their misery."

For many of us, the splendor of spiritual awakening has been comparatively
short-lived while the time spent suspended in pain seems interminable. Yet
this is the nature of the shamanic path. Of the countless interviews and
autobiographies I've read, the two most repeated words to issue from the
mouths of shamans are "spirit" and "suffering."

Shamanic Dismemberment

Give me everything mangled and bruised,
And I will make a light of it to make you weep.
And we will have rain,
And begin again.


-- Deena Metzger, Leavings


A woman experiencing a lengthy Kundalini awakening told me of a period where
she was having frequent nightmares from which she awoke screaming. All these
terrible dreams had the same theme: "they" were hacking her to pieces.
Eventually, these dreams began to change, and instead of being chopped up,
dream figures were putting her back together in a way that made her -- like
the Bionic man -- "better and stronger" than ever before.

This is a shamanic dismemberment experience, a symbolic transformational
drama which has been recognized in the wisdom traditions from time
immemorial. In Sumerian mythology, Inanna was a sky goddess who had to pass
through seven gates of the underworld, each time being stripped of deeper
parts of her being until she was naked and lifeless. In the book, Shaman's
Path, Rowena Pattee describes the Egyptian enactment of this drama in the
myth of Osiris, the pharaoh who was slain, dismembered and supernaturally
resurrected to conceive his son Horus. In the Greek mystery religions,
Pattee says that "Dionysus was torn to pieces by the Titans while his heart
was rescued by Athena, goddess of wisdom, suggestive of the wisdom born of
the dismemberment experience."

In these ancient stories, something magnificent and creatively abundant
occurs after the original being is broken apart. These myths infer that all
creation is the result of a single divine Self which has been sacrificially
fragmented. The Inuit Indians of the Arctic celebrate Takanakapsaluk, the
dismembered goddess whose severed parts form all the creatures of the sea.
And in pre-Aztec religion, the earth itself was created out of the
dismembered parts of the goddess Tlalteuctli. As the myth goes, ever since
she was torn apart and turned into the earth, Tlalteuctli she has wept and
cannot be consoled accept through the "blood" of torn open (i.e.,
spiritually consecrated) human hearts. "To sacrifice our hearts," says Kate
Duff, "is not to give ourselves away, but to keep ourselves true, by freeing
our hearts from distraction and realigning ourselves with our appointed
destinies. Ironically, we often find our true selves, and engage our souls,
when our hearts are broken, bleeding or sacrificed." (from The Alchemy of
Illness)

Those of us who are being transformed may have graphic dreams or visions of
being brutally cut up or torn apart. This phase may be preceded (or
accompanied) by visions or dreams of catastrophic disasters, such as
earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, nuclear holocaust, etc. Our primordial
fears are triggered by these scenarios. Unfortunately, some of us also have
literal dismemberment experiences when the Kundalini is purifying our bodies
and psyches. Our bones, joints, vertebrae, internal organs, eyes or other
parts of the body may be gravely affected by the process. Serious injuries
or diseases may occur which seem to be permanently destroying us.

Our very survival seems to hang by a thread. Kundalini researcher Tontyn
Hopman reminds us that "awakening encompasses both the state of being in
harmony with the Tao and the knife-edged path with its violent purifications
and sudden, catastrophic perils." The dangers of the path are not illusory,
he tells us: "Everything may really be at stake... The Spirit knows no half
measures or lukewarm adjustments. How else could a person be transformed
except through the most intense experiences?"

Anyone who has suffered a serious illness knows what a nightmare long term
disability and chronic pain can be. In some cases, other personal crises
such as deaths of family members or friends -- which sometimes occur in
uncanny clusters around the individual with risen Kundalini -- are the
hardest part of the process. Sickness, injuries, and loss of loved ones are
human ordeals that eventually confront us all, no matter what our Kundalini
status may be. But it does seem that the risen Kundalini increases the
likelihood of crisis in our lives. The Shakti Goddess will utilize
everything possible to shake us up, break us open and pare us down, casting
off everything we thought we had or knew or were.

Says Holger Kalweit:
"Many shamans were critically ill, socially unacceptable, and psychically
confused over periods of several years; during their time of suffering their
body and psyche adjusted themselves to an alternate mode of perception. This
continuous biopsychic process of transformation often culminates in
experiences of dismemberment, which represent the zenith and turning point
of inner change toward a spiritual state of being." (from Dreamtime & Inner
Space)

At its deepest level, the dismemberment experience dismantles our old
identity. It is a powerful death and rebirth process. The experience of
being stripped to bone forces us to examine the bare essence of what we are.
The divestment of everything superfluous is a fierce teaching. We learn what
is truly important and what is nonessential to our physical, emotional,
mental and spiritual survival. Loss impresses upon us the temporal nature of
life. Especially if we are ill, we are forced to let go of things precious
to us. These sacrifices, says Kate Duff, may take the form of "our savings,
marriage, mobility, or pride, even our own flesh and blood." Through these
losses, "we are reminded that nothing lasts forever or belongs to us;
everything comes from and returns to an original source."

In the most intense phases of transformation, we may be so disoriented or
physically ill that we need to be helped with even our most personal needs.
There have been periods in my process when simply crossing a room felt like
scaling Mt. Olympias. A psychic I consulted when I was having a hard time
with Kundalini symptoms insisted that I "get a business card" and
immediately set myself up as a healer. You've got to be kidding, I thought.
In the shape I was in, I wouldn't have been able to hold a job as a
paperweight.

A more spiritual way of looking at the situation is expressed by the
meditation teacher, Shinzen Young:
"If Nature (or 'God') has given you so much pain that you cannot do anything
else other than be with it, then there is a message here: you are not
expected to be doing anything else! In other words, spending time -- even
long periods of time -- just feeling pain is a legitimate calling in the
eyes of God and Nature. Assuming that you are making at least some effort to
purify and evolve consciousness by being with pain in a skillful way, you
are engaged in productive and meaningful work." (from Break Through Pain)

Young goes on to say that not only is this inner work valuable for us as
individuals; it is also a psychic contribution to the rest of the world:
"...whenever a person does something, it makes it easier for others to do
that thing, even though the others may have no direct contact with or even
knowledge of the original person's work... According to this theory, a
person isolated and cut off from contacts, who is working to purify through
pain, is in some way making it easier to all other sufferers in the world to
do the same; a worthwhile and meaningful job indeed!"

With this understanding, Young encourages us to "sacramentalize" our pain by
regarding it "as a kind of imposed monastery or sacred ceremony."

Anthropologist and mystic Felicitas D. Goodman notes that Siberian shamans
regarded dismemberment as an essential phase of initiation for healers. To
her surprise, Goodman discovered that this archetype seems universal. In her
trance work with Westerners, those who had spontaneous dismemberment visions
were invariably destined to become various kinds of healers.

The world around us falling apart in times of crisis parallels the
psychological fragmentation which already exists within us. "One of the
major themes in the literature on the transformation of consciousness is the
notion that the disjointed, separated, fragmented parts of the psyche can be
and need to be synthesized into a harmonious, integrated whole," Ralph
Metzner reminds us. Often it isn't until our life is in shambles that we
become aware of the parts of ourselves which have become dispossessed. "In
the core of our being we are singular and unified; at the surface of our
interactions with the world, we are multiple and dispersed," says Metzner.
"In transformation we seek to recover that original unity." (from The
Unfolding Self)

This is precisely the task of shaman, as Joan Halifax explains:
"The shaman is a healed healer who has retrieved the broken pieces of his or
her body and psyche and, through a personal rite of transformation, has
integrated many planes of life experience: the body and the spirit, the
ordinary and nonordinary, the individual and the community, nature and
supernature, the mythic and the historical, the past, the present and the
future." (from Shamanic Voices)

Completing this restorative rite is serious business for the soul. Says
Kalweit:
"The lonely struggle with the forces of nature, during which one is at their
mercy for better or worse, is a requirement of shamanic training, because
only when the apprentice becomes aware of his smallness and helplessness,
when he becomes modest and humble, can his spirit blend with these
tremendous forces. An awareness of the interwoven mystical unity of nature
is an essential experience during initiation of of the shamanic view of the
world in general."

"The cure for dismemberment," says Metzner, "is re-membering: remembering
who we actually are." As Halifax puts it: "To bring back to an original
state that which was in primordial times whole and is now broken and
dismembered is not only an act of unification but also a divine remembrance
of a time when a complete reality existed."

The positive side of the dismemberment experience is that it eventually
leads to a "resurrection" -- a higher state of spiritual development. The
darkness which had seemed endless and impenetrable is at long last revealed
to be simply a very hard passage -- the proverbial tunnel, at the end of
which is a beautiful, welcoming light.

The Long Haul

All of this wisdom evaporates pretty fast when one is suffering. Yet I've
noticed that my darkest periods frequently precede a breakthrough of some
sort. They seem to be a means of emptying me so something new can fill my
cup. A longing for death can mean that we are approaching a turning point.
We have reached a place of nothingness which seems barren but is in
actuality a realm of dormancy, a wintering of the soul without which there
can be no spring. "Right before a change, we encounter all our obstacles to
that change," counsels Caroline Casey. "This is known as a `sunset effect':
as the pattern goes down, it glows most vividly." (from Making the Gods Work
for You)

Everything that lives follows its own internal rhythms of growth and
decline. The Kundalini process also develops in cycles of expansion and
contraction. The state of expansion may give us a taste of the eternal, but
we're not home free. As Roberto Assagioli says:
"Such an exalted state lasts for varying periods, but it is bound to
cease... The inflow of light and love is rhythmical as is everything in the
universe. After a while it diminishes or ceases and the flood is followed by
the ebb." (from Psychosynthesis)

It can help to understand that the first stage of any transformational
process is chaos. Things blow up, fall apart, go berserk. In alchemy, this
chaotic phase is referred to as the prima materia which forms the basis of
the work which will eventually produce the "gold" -- the desired outcome (or
spiritual treasure). "The prima materia is in a state of conflict all the
time," astrologer Liz Greene explains, "blind, potent, undirected, but full
of raw power and constantly embattled." (from Dynamics of the Unconscious)

When we find ourselves in this initial phase of transformation, everything
is precarious. The old anchors and safety nets no longer hold. We feel
confused, miserable, hopeless. Cultures more attuned to the cycles of nature
regarded adversity as a possibility for growth. The Chinese word for crisis
is wei-chi, meaning a perilous opportunity.

Often, the more radical the transformation, the more severe the crisis which
precedes it. Shamans and spiritual teachers have long understood this
principle: the greater the initiation crisis, the greater the potential for
beneficial growth. As Z. Budapest puts it: "Turmoil is fertile soil
necessary for the soul to find eternal wisdom, insights, and eventual peace
of mind." Of course, there are no guarantees. Initiation is never totally
predictable or safe. The glamorous idea that Kundalini initiation is an
internal refuge of bliss is quite misleading. More often, as Alice Bailey
warned, our initiations are expensive rites of passage, bringing upon us
"increasing work and increasing responsibility."

"Lest we have considered difficulties and darknesses for too long and become
a little dismayed," advises Michal Eastcott, "let us remind our selves that
the truth of this promise is always before us every night -- it is then, in
the darkness, that we see the stars." (from I : The Story of the Self)...cont'd

http://www.elcollie.com/st/darkness.html
________________________________________________________

Incidentally, There is a movie which I have never seen by Ingmar Bergman titled, Winter's Light. Has anyone seen it?
I think it's about this process.

Would love to see the Ingmar Bergman film sometime.

I come from a long line of people who deal with clinical depression. My maternal grandmother was institutionalized most of her life; I never met her. Her family was embarrased by her "condition," and conspired to "put her away" for life. Her father was a suicide, carefully reframed as a mysterious "accident" by the family. My mom has had severe bouts of depression all of her life, strongly influenced by SAD.

I have as well; not as debilitating as my mom, as I seem to keep functioning no matter what, at least on the surface, but enough to periodically "shut down" all of me but the part that earns money and pays bills.

I've seen the same trend in both of my sons. One expresses it through anger, one just crawls into a cave and shuts down.

Apparently, we've got a lot of learning to do. Or, we are more sensitive to the energies that move around us. Or both.

I can truly say that all my greatest periods of growth have come after crushing loss and pain. In that case, as a nation and a planet, we should be well prepared for the dawn!

Meanwhile, I've found that peace of mind and spirit are easier to experience the farther away from people that I am. Too many people in my space, too much human "noise" and activity around me, and I tend to shut down.

"Too many people in my space, too much human "noise" and activity around me, and I tend to shut down."

Sensory overload sends the boy deep inside himself. I wonder how many cross patterns there are with depression/bipolar & conditions like autism.

That line just jumped off the page & hollered 'Dave's boy' at me!

Of course this is not the only planetary combination that lends itself to states of depression. Saturn/Neptune transits also are connected to depression, for instance. But these planets may color the type or source of the depression.

Here's an excerpt from an interview with Liz:

Nick Campion: What distinction would you draw between Moon-Pluto links and Sun-Pluto? Is Moon-Pluto going to have more to do with the family?

Liz Greene: I think so. Moon-Pluto operates much more through the physical and psychological inheritance. One experiences the Plutonian dimension of life viscerally, either in the body or through the feelings or through relationship. It operates at a gut level, whereas Sun-Pluto tends to translate more into something that affects, or is part of, one’s journey, one’s destiny, one’s purpose and direction.



Nick Campion: In The Horoscope in Manifestation, you said to a member of the audience with Pluto square Moon, "You are carrying complexes related to the family inheritance, the wounded world, the suffering of others, and the sense of obligations which such suffering invokes."<6> That sounds more past-related, as opposed to Sun-Pluto, which is more future-related.

Liz Greene: Yes. Moon-Pluto carries a big wardrobe with it. Family objects are in the attic and basement.



Nick Campion: Skeletons in cupboards?

Liz Greene: It’s skeletons in cupboards. The child born with Moon-Pluto knows that life is very dangerous. Nothing is permanent, everything could be destroyed. There is no real sense of being able to relax and have a nice safe time, because there is an inbuilt understanding or inbuilt instinctive awareness of the cyclical nature of life and the mortality of everything - the inevitability of change. It is that sense of constant danger that could be turned into an extraordinary attribute. It also brings with it a very understandable tendency to depression, because you can’t just go and have a party. You can, but at some point when the clock strikes midnight, you realise that all these people are one day going to get old, and they will get sick, and they are going to die, and what is the point? What are we here for? It brings up all these deep questions and anxieties.



Nick Campion: One point which you developed very strongly in your early writings is the idea that a planetary combination which might have a possible negative consequence also contains the means by which you can do something about it. So, if Moon-Pluto brings a natural tendency to depression, what would be a natural way for somebody to turn that into an upward path, or bring it back to the light, or however you want to put it - and get the smile back on their face?

Liz Greene: I think it may involve not trying so terribly hard to get the smile back. Part of the problem is that we perceive states of depression and mourning as pathological conditions that should be cured. Half of America is medicated in order to avoid depression. Depression or melancholy has a long tradition of being the only state in which you can contact the soul. If you go around with a perpetual smile, that level of life cannot make itself known in a helpful or creative way. The cyclical tendency to depression with Moon-Pluto means, first of all, understanding depression differently - perhaps calling it melancholy instead - to go down into the depths in order to return to the light. All the deeper questions come up. Because everything dies in Pluto’s world, there is a constant grieving for what passes. It is like losing a human being that you are close to, and unless you go through the mourning process, something gets very blocked up and sick. It can actually be helpful to work with depression as something useful and creative, rather than trying to place the smile back on. I think the smile begins to form with a sense of irony. It is a different kind of smile. Also, it can lead to the kind of humour that deals with an appreciation of the absurd.



Nick Campion: I remember once, a long time ago, there was an article in the Astrological Association newsletter, Transit, in which Eve Jackson looked at the horoscopes of the Monty Python team and the prevalence of Pluto.<7> One thinks of images like the sad clown with the tears running down his face.

Liz Greene: Pluto has its own form of smile. It is a bad mistake to think that smiles should always be Steinway smiles, with "have a nice day" pasted onto them. Getting something regenerating and rewarding out of Pluto really means treating the god with respect and not trying to turn him into a bundle of laughs.



Nick Campion: One image that occurred to me while you were talking is the sight one encounters in Mediterranean countries, of dark Catholic churches with old ladies in black, lighting candles, probably for lost members of their family. That’s their form of working with Pluto and loss.

Liz Greene: Yes. It may be appropriate for those cultures. It may not necessarily work in Britain. Also, some cultures are much less frightened of venting grief and the rage that goes with grief, because we quite appropriately should be enraged when things die. Again, if you look at Faust, Goethe had the Sun square a rising Pluto in Scorpio. At one point Mephistopheles says, "What does it matter if this woman dies?" and Faust comes out with an outraged declaration that the death of a single young woman like this is a terrible tragedy. We should experience that reaction in the face of Pluto. It is appropriate because then we clean out the rage and grief. In some cultures, they do this more easily.

http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_plutint1_e.htm

image the word represents.."pressing something down".......when we "re-press" emotion that needs to be released, in the body....we experience depression. The body is reacting to this unwanted baggage, and providing a clue on the cause and how to heal the situation.

Once we begin to "express" our stored emotional baggage...the depression starts to lift and we begin to heal. Simplistic... I know...but that's the way I view it.

I try to visualize what the word means for each of the long term illnesses we suffer from......as in arthritis....to me it means "unbending"...that is a clue to check the personality for being rigid in beliefs, and the body is giving a clue.

Anyway...it works for me! Just thought I would throw this out there to the ether!

"You can heal your Life".

I may not agree with all of her deductions and conslusions about background attitudes to certain illnesses, but I do see much sense and truth in the general interpretation.

DemEx

too. Our collective rituals for grieving do not encourage or provide enough opportunity for full expression nor have we embraced emotional pain as acceptable and natural. It's "messy" and "dark". We are supposed to botox ourselves and put on a happy face. As a result, I think many have learned to withdraw in order to deal with their emotional issues in private. I'm not too convinced that that's the best solution in most cases, but until we collectively create rituals and acceptance for more open expression of the full range of our feelings, I suppose that's certainly one way to assure you are not compounding the problem with inappropriate responses to your condition.

Perhaps there is a collective reason for all this 'clinical depression' that we should be addressing as well, instead of simply medicating.

almost brought me to tears.

It touched what I feel about our American Culture today. We aren't allowed to mourn. We express our personal feeling through watching CNN's reporting of Schiavo or the Pope's death or orgies like Princess Di and the latest Entertainment star who dies and we go through the grief in a mass produced way but in reality never get release from the deaths of folks who are close to us. There just isn't that mass commeraderie from the death of a favorate Grandma or Aunt or whatever that you no longer see because she's back where you grew up and you are somewhere else living a different life. Or maybe they moved to Florida or somewhere away from you and it ends up the same.

With our mobile society we are so cut off from people we knew and loved at one time in our life, today. We can turn our minds to something else when they are gone...but we never really can mourn. The folks we work and interact with will say: "So sorry about your Granny or Auntie or Uncle dying....or your friend from high school, etc., but it's like you are back after the funeral and expected to just "get on with life."

I often think the Victorians and those who came before us knew something important about death and mourning. Wearing that black did signify that something had happened to you and folks at least would treat your mourning with respect. It gave a "time out" and some sympathy or understanding that someone was going through a great loss.

In America today we are expected to just "get over it" ..."get on with it" or FGS go get some counseling or get on meds if you can't deal with a loss. It expected that we deal with grief on our own and quickly. It's the "Manly" thing to do...not to "cry in one's teacups" over what is gone and can't be changed.

Not all of us are made that way. And those who aren't are pretty much "culled out" of the pack if we choose to follow our own grieving schedule.

That's what I've observed, anyway. And, it just is a symptom of why everything is such a mess these days...in my opinion...my 2 cents.

It was good to read this thread and all the comments. :-)'s

Reading everything is going to keep me busy this weekend!

Thank you, all.

I have been depressed and on anti-depressants for a little more than a year. Before I got on them I was debilitated. It was all I could do to commute where I needed to be (home/work). The funny thing about the meds is that no one wants to be on them so after the meds make you feel alright you think you can get off of them. I tried that and got a rude awakening. Here's the deal, real depression is not just "feeling blue" like people tend to. It is a trauma that involves your brain chemicals and the meds regulate them. I would not advise getting off any meds w/out close monitoring from whatever doctor prescribed them. Sometimes they know what they're doing.

'Complicated Grief' Goes Beyond Depression By JENNIFER C. YATES, Associated Press Writer
Tue May 31, 5:14 PM ET

PITTSBURGH - In the months after David Golebiewski's 19-year-old daughter was killed in a car crash, grief consumed his life. He couldn't go to the restaurant where his daughter had worked, and he spent five hours a day in Internet chat rooms with other parents who lost children.

Doctors say Golebiewski was suffering from "complicated grief" — a condition some hope will soon be recognized by the American Psychiatric Association.

They say the condition is more severe than grief and different from depression, and affects as many as 1 million people a year.

Dr. Katherine Shear, a psychiatry professor at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine, said that with complicated grief, the usual feelings of disbelief, loss and anguish do not go away, and eventually affect every part of a person's life.

Left untreated, doctors say, complicated grief can lead to depression, suicide, drug and alcohol abuse, even heart disease...cont'd

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050531/ap_on_he_me/complicated_grief;_ylt=AgkrsM2f0z_ss4vNSTG4r8ys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2bXJyZDI0BHNlYwNobA--

in grief for months. I have been very concerned for her and have followed my intuition when talking with her. She is finally beginning to show signs of recovery, thank God. She has suffered real trauma over the loss of her marriage. Yes, I know it is because she never really "saw" him and it is another step on the path of spiritual growth for her, but the sense of betrayal just devastated her. She is 52 and has fibromyalgia , among other things. And she has great faith that she will continue to improve physically.In the meantime, Pluto has been transiting my 8th house and opposing my natal moon at times. I have experienced losses of family members and dearest friends and at this point am swinging in limbo waiting to see what comes next.At my age ,this seems somehow easier than my earlier life. That is , the fascinating thing about aging is that one seems to gain more insight and acceptance. Also the stellium in my 12th house seems to be working overtime to help me. Many dreams full of symbology ect. I have always seen life as a schoolroom,and the classes continue.Right now, I am waiting for "spring break"!! I do gain great comfort from nature and small moments .

or over production, to put it in simple terms.

Thus the medications to attempt to do the job of the missing or extra
production of the self's brain chemical production.

I suspect that the suggestion of depression as a spiritual journey, refers to "dark night of the soul" type things...hard times which turn a person toward spirituality...but that it does not refer to the brain chemical imbalance type-caused depression.

I think it would be dangerous for a bi-polar person to give up medication hoping that a spiritual journey would be the cure, although studying spirituality might help the person accept the condition and the necessity for medication.

Just my opinion.