Equating inequality

The comparisons of the current gay/lesbian marriage struggles to "sitting in the back of the bus" and "whites only water fountains," etc. are difficult to accept. I know that some compare the struggles and even equate them.

Coretta Scott King is quoted on her views on same sex marriage as a civil rights issue. There are similarities between different civil rights struggles, of different times and different issues. And there are times when the different groups have worked together.

There's not a strong presence of African American issues in the large forums AFAIK. It seems the Group stays focused and under the radar.

So I have come in respectfully to ask for opinions on the comparisons between civil rights issues. There are comparisons, but I am asking for this reason:

It seems too much to claim that the struggle for gay/lesbian marriage is equated with specific aspects of African American civil rights. The claims that the marriage issue is just like "sitting in the back of the bus" or "whites only water fountains" seem to trivialize the realities of the historic and current African American experience -- from how captives were brought here, through to today, when socioeconomic issues remain unresolved and Katrina NOLA shone a light on the blindness of the public to televised genocide. The history and the imagery are too intense to be watered down. IMHO.

That's how it seems to me. When I see these statements of direct comparison on DU, I am uncomfortable for those reasons and embarrassed at being associated with what to me seems flippant or clueless, unaware of history.

I would appreciate some thoughts here, on whether it is something that also disturbs and distresses African American and other DUers.

Thank you. (If I'm the only one I may stop tilting at that particular windmill rather than pointing out it is not appropriate).


edit: typo "times"

Thank you. From the bottom of my heart. Thank you.

I honestly never even knew that these types of comparisons were so commonplace until I started posting on DU. Many blacks here share your "embarrassment" at the lack of knowledge of our history and are uncomfortable with the comparisons. However, when we dare to speak up, the mob swarms.

I don't think there is a single person in this forum that is not pro-marriage equality and pro-gay rights (unless I've missed something). But the simple fact is that the black experience in the United States is unique. No other group has had to endure what black people have in this country and the frequent comparisons and seeming trivializations of black history have been deemed insulting, including by many black gays.

Firedupdem started a really good thread where she discussed Rush Limbaugh's idiotic reference to water fountains. It's a bit different from what you asked, but I think still provides a very good framework for answering your questions. Thank you for asking them.

ETA: Link to firedup's thread - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=258&topic_id=5845&mesg_id=5845

:spray: #23 :pals:

Thank you. I asked b/c I have been trying to gently point it out, but aside from some supportive feedback, I appear out on a limb there. I asked here after losing patience with an answer to a question:

Q: "Ok explaine: what is the difference between the "m-word" and civil union?"

A: "The same difference between whites-only drinking fountains and colored drinking fountains. Seperate but equal AIN'T!!!"

OM: "It is so not the same. Could people quit this stuff? It's disturbing."

Then came here to ask my question. Don't want to be out on a limb or alienate people or fair game for false accusations of bigotry.

After your answer, I replied to one of the many respondents:

"I understand and thank you for your POV. Bigotry is wrong, yes. And yes the civil rights issues of African Americans and LGBT have comparisons. However, they are not identical. The history and struggle of black Americans is unique. Using the imagery of their servitude and dehumanization strikes many who know the history AND also support LGBT rights as misguided; as representing lack of awareness of the history; and as inappropriate and disrespectful to African Americans."

I dunno. There's no solution, unless it's educating people. The sensitization I have is from back in the day and it's not some intellectual construct of PC-ness, it's a visceral sense that comes with the territory of living in the times, of witnessing the events, of rubbing elbows with people, of growing up in a Golden Age of music and of soul music.

I posted this recently and it includes a video of Marvin Gaye. There's footage there of inner city life from the civil rights era. I don't know how to say how it strikes me... there's a coolness and a wariness commingled. It has something to do with this and I have no way to articulate it.

omega minimo doesn't need any more issues to be champion and pain-in-the-ass of. Yet back in the day these WERE interconnected, including civil rights of women, LGBT and people of color.

Times change. Frames of references and "common knowledge" change, which I have learned recently on DU to a shocking degree, even amongst the most-educated-and-proud-of-it.

Perhaps my bottom line is: I will take advice about addressing this on DU, open to cooperation in educating folk and not being out on a limb AND if the folks here appear to not comprehend what the unique African American experience has been and continues to be, please know that many of us get it.

:grouphug:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5822039

What's Going On
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9KC7uhMY9s

"I understand and thank you for your POV. Bigotry is wrong, yes. And yes the civil rights issues of African Americans and LGBT have comparisons. However, they are not identical. The history and struggle of black Americans is unique. Using the imagery of their servitude and dehumanization strikes many who know the history AND also support LGBT rights as misguided; as representing lack of awareness of the history; and as inappropriate and disrespectful to African Americans."

You did yourself so very proud here.

Do you know that my grandfather grew up in Pompano Beach, Florida and because he was a black kid, for the first several years of his school life he was only able to go to school three months out of the year?? Do you know that he had to pick cotton instead of being able to go to school year-round?? My grandfather, great-uncles etc. had stories about taking 4th grade classes with boys that were 15, 16 years old because of Jim Crow laws pertaining to black education and segregation. My grandfather was 36 years old before he graduated from college. Do you know that he joined the Army and when he came back from fighting in WWII, he could not find a job?? He fought for his country and NO ONE WOULD GIVE HIM A JOB.

Do you think that any of the people on this site casually comparing the civil rights struggle of blacks to other people are the ones who have any GENUINE understanding of what the black civil rights struggle was about and how it continues to this day??

I had an exchange with a poster here who compared DOMA to Jim Crow. He absolutely kept insisting that I tell him why I found that particular comparison insulting. He could not understand that the very reason that he could not understand WHY I found that comparison insulting was the reason he should not be making it. There are many, many whites who understand why that comparison would be counter-productive, and as such, they know better than to make them. A few people came along and tried to explain to him what he obviously didn't understand but I don't know if he took the lesson or not. I hope that he did.

Every generation of black people has its own challenges; I don't even compare the challenges *I* face as a black woman in 2009 to what my mother endured; she does not compare HER challenges to those of her mother etc. So the casual "back of the bus" and "water fountain" references, as well as comparisons of the brutal treatment of blacks do not sit well with me and never will. Wouldn't it be just wonderful if the respect shown to other groups who have been brutally oppressed as well as the respect that others claim to want from everyone else could one day be shown to us??

please don't cry...:hug:

the other day, i recalled the pride in my great-grandmother's eyes taking my sib and i (as kids) to sit at the lunch counter, at Woolworths. i remember how she told us, "...now children--sit at the lunch counter. sit straight and tall." it was always this big event with her. we had to get dressed up, so we could "go out to lunch, with great-grandmother." she didn't drive. so we took the bus--she called it "the street car." she never let us sit in the back.

"no, children. we can sit up front--right by the driver," she'd say. my sib always wanted to go in the back. but she'd patiently explain to him how the front was the only place her grandchild was going to sit.

back then, i had NO CLUE why ANY of this was so special for her. we were born with our rights and abilities. but the fact that she lived through that horrible time, and moved to california and lived to see the day that she could take her great-grandchildren for a ride on the front of the bus, and for lunch at the counter at a woolworths.....i really don't know how to express how i feel about that.

all i can say is i say it here, because i feel i can.
i don't in other places...

pearls before swine, i suppose. :shrug:

experience, transmitted even if children were too young to understand completely. We got that it mattered. Even if we didn't completely understand!! :think: That's part of what's missing in the lack of respect so rampant here.

The cliche "PC" was instrumental in intentionally and pathologically destroying what up to then been know, IMHO, as "respect."

...i miss her something awful, sometimes.

she wouldn't have had any purpose for these "power chairs" today's elderly use. lol. she walked everywhere. if she couldn't walk, she took her beloved "street car"...and always sat right in front.

she was awake everyday by 6:00 am...dressed, in hose, making our breakfast. (sigh). these were her practices, she was ridiculously active up until the very end.

how fortunate you are :loveya:

...were.
she passed on years ago.
got to see me graduate high school and attend college (thankfully). she passed my first or second year of college. seems a long time ago.

I don't either. And girl, that's why the tears are flowing. :pals:

We have it tough but we are BLESSED. I look at my little girl and I wonder in 20 years what she'll have to endure. What will racism in the world be like in 20 years? In 10?? Is it totally stupid of me to hope that racism will not even be an issue for my baby?? Can you imagine what went through your great-grandmother's heart and mind when she held her child in her arms and tried to figure out what this child would have to endure?? Can you imagine what she thought when she looked at you and your siblings?? If your great-grand is ANYTHING like my grandmother, and it sounds like she is, she probably expected soooo much from you. Be the best. Because if we can be the smartest, the hardest working and the most driven, maybe we can achieve HALF of what we may actually deserve in this damned world.

I remember intensely disliking my grandmother when I was little. She was always correcting my grammar; always demanding to know how I was doing in school and why I was only getting B's instead of A's. She told me every single day of my childhood (I swear this on my life) "To whom much is given, much is expected." I HATED her! :rofl: Now, I know that she and my "mean mama" were just trying to get me to do MORE. It's the best thing in the world to see how proud they are of me now.

Reminds me, I really need to call her. Maybe even put something in the mail for her. :)

...trying to comb this hair. :spray:...yeah, good luck w/that, grandmother. ha! i was NOT compliant.
you want to talk about hating someone? puh-lease. i hid from her.

"Wouldn't it be just wonderful if the respect shown to other groups who have been brutally oppressed as well as the respect that others claim to want from everyone else could one day be shown to us??"

It's a matter of perception and we all know everyone here has different experiences. Yet what we see now is generations of people who deny and are hostile to what they're unaware of. And apparently never lived in a time or a home where respect of other cultures/stories was a thing to do.

"He could not understand that the very reason that he could not understand WHY I found that comparison insulting was the reason he should not be making it."

I mentioned Katrina NOLA and left it in -- with the word genocide -- which I consider it to be. Not many here called it that. I was here on DU while we watched it unfold.

From my POV we were witnessing genocide, validated and justified by official lies, validated and justified by soulless televised broadcasts that held it all at arm's length, as if the lies were true, as if the excuses were valid, AS IF THOSE WEREN'T REAL AMERICANS DOWN THERE.

I still can't believe it but what is even more unbelievable is that not that many Americans saw it that way.

Aside from the genocidal bigotry toward African American and disadvantaged people, that was a TEST of how much the American public would swallow of LIES of blatant MISTREATMENT AND MURDER of American citizens, of complete abandonment of the American public by a government bankrupt in terms of humanity and ethics, on top of everything else.

We can hope that this is different under Obama. That does not change what happened, what was done to these people and too few protested or called it what it was. And what people don't understand is that THAT COULD HAVE BEEN ANY OF US. We failed the test. We will pay the price when catastrophe and Blackwater visit our town.

So. What a tangent. About perception. About how different it is for each of us.

:hug:

...when you called it genocide? i was here, too. couldn't stop crying that day. just so horrible.

Gee, which time? :eyes: :rofl:

:spray:

you cast your crazy pearls this direction, any time. :hi:

I remember watching a tv and sitting down and saying "New Orleans is GONE." I couldn't believe it. As you said so perfectly, those were AMERICANS dying. That could have been my own mother floating dead in those waters.

You're right. That test was failed SPECTACULARLY. I will never forget the right-wing theme of "well why didn't they just leave their homes?" Yes, because if you are too poor to own a car or have bus fare, getting out of town is just a snap! Right-wingers were even asking "well why didn't they just put one foot in front of the other and just walk?" Again, so easy! We all know that during a hurricane, it makes PERFECT sense to leave your home and your belongings and walk down the damned street into an encroaching storm.

But the fundamental difference is that those people were mostly black and poor. To many, they were f*cking disposable. They were pests for extermination. And you are spot on - it WAS genocide. Add to that the documented stories of white cops hunting down and killing black people as they fled the floodwaters and I literally begin to seethe.

...it was just beyond my comprehension.

the comments i saw and heard--even concerning the impoverished and elderly caucasians. what were they supposed to do, if they didn't have anyone to help them get out?

"no money to get out of town? well--clearly you suck...get some money, you loser!" i couldn't believe what i was hearing or seeing. no consideration for those less fortunate of any race, age or sex. i had just finished crying, and celine dion broke down on larry king and i lost it. "...why can't we get them any water?!" she cried.

ellen degeneres, magic johnson, celine dion--love them all.
they were very outspoken (and pissed that day).

But just watching the news I was devastated. "Heartless" is exactly the right word.

Wasn't that when Kanye said that "George Bush doesn't care about black people??"

i'd forgotten about the kanye incident. yes--that was when he said that. :spray:

i'm not a fan of his work, (i don't hate it or anything, just not my scene). but i almost broke down and bought his cd. one of my gf's did--just because he said that, at that time.

eliminate welfare? Yes. Eliminate welfare. What are people supposed to do? Shades of Katrina. Too poor to live?

Clearly it's insane. And legislators meanwhile collect their exorbitant pay and perks.

When I hear the Gubernator suggest that, I think of the failed test of Katrina.

it's not like we don't know his well publicized thoughts on women of color ("hot latinas") or some such nonsense. he's a sexist, racist pos, asshole. i can't stand him and will never understand how someone as intelligent as maria shriver fell for a guy like him.

i was floored when i found out she married that guy. :puke:

some of the references to the civil rights movement and jim crow laws just boggles my mind. I cringe every time I see the flippant comments and references. Some people, including myself have no clue as to what that period was like. My father stuck his chest out with pride when he could boast that his girls could cross Western avenue in Chicago to attend school or go the mall. He knew what it was like not to be able to cross a street without being harassed.

The flippant references make me sick. I want equality for everyone but don't practically joke about the history of my people in this country! References to the back of the bus, and jumping the broom etc. are really over the line and sickening.

.

I'm from Atlanta. You don't grow up or live in Atlanta without knowing a large (and I mean LARGE) number of gay black people, male and female, out or on the DL.

And yet, I have never, ever heard any of my gay black friends or gay black people that I've known in my (xx) years of life make these flippant, casual comparisons. I've never heard any of the WHITE or non-black gay people I know make these comparisons either! I think even as gay blacks are fighting for their own lives and the ability to live them as they want and love whoever they hell they want, they have still grown up hearing the stories of what their mamas, granddads, great-uncles, aunts etc. went through and they automatically give that struggle the respect that it deserves. They acknowledge their own struggle for civil rights while still showing respect for the previous (and still ongoing) one.

I think that's why I read some of the stuff posted here and I have to pick my jaw up off of the keyboard. It's not just ignorance of the struggle, but as Omega said, it's the HOSTILITY towards being asked to understand and show some basic respect to a culture different from your own and whose struggles you could never even begin to understand.

How in the hell can somebody else tell me what not to be offended by? I just don't understand the arrogance and disrespect. I certainly don't know what it's like to not be able to walk in the front door of a restaurant. I don't know what it's like to not be able to look another person in the eye! I don't know what it's like to have dogs and fire hoses turned on me in my own country. But our parents and grandparents do! How in the hell would even I joke or mention the back of the bus when I'm black and didn't experience it? We don't even cross those lines and we truly know what discrimination is!

I'm glad we're using this forum more than I noticed when I started posting here.

maybe it's an internet thing or who knows... the sense of tolerance is missing, on many issues. Respect for other POV's we may not share. And esp. if it's a cultural association someone may bring our attention to, that we were unaware of and may still not understand, we would respect.

Maybe the PC hoax killed that. I always saw accusations of "Political Correctness" as a way to avoid basic respect.

I wonder too how -- or if -- the civil rights era is being taught in schools.

my maternal great grandparents were forced off their land in Texas when some local jackass accused one of their sons of stealing. my great grandparents were some of the wealthiest people in the area...he farmed, she sewed. their white neighobors forced them off their land...they had to flee in the middle of the night. they lost that land, and our family never recovered it. when i hear modern white gay people call themselves "house negroes" i want to punch them in the face :grr:

Jim Crow, Slavery in the colonies and later in the U.S., the continuing struggles of our civil rights issues and the GLBT is like comparing GLBT to the Holocaust or the Trail of Tears. Casual references to 'sitting at the back of the bus' or 'separate water fountains' has a much deeper significance to us. It is a reminder that we were once not considered human. It reminds us that we were property. It reminds us that we were often of less value than animals. There was a distinction between the blood that ran through our veins and that of white people. We were not allowed to look upon a white person's face lest we dare consider ourselves 'equal.' We were good enough, however, to be concubine. Consequently, we are the only race of people who can rarely trace our heritage any further than a few generations. Some are more blessed than others and can trace back slightly further to find the 'foreign' lineage. Thus, the wide variety of our skin color. All AA are 'mutts,' like our president.

I could go on but hopefully this will give you just a FEW reasons we find these comparisons insulting. So, the next time a white person feels compelled to casually make that 'back of the bus' comparison, hopefully, they will stop and think about what they are actually comparing. Again, thank you.

oh my god. You put it so beautifully (if that's possible regarding such ugliness).

Thank you for your reply. It makes it clear for anyone who doesn't know; it makes it even more vivid for someone who has a visceral I-grew-up-knowing-this sense, as I do. :cry:

We will read it and know it here. And still see the casual use of the terms. From those who don't know.

Education would be the only solution.

"So, the next time a white person feels compelled to casually make that 'back of the bus' comparison, hopefully, they will stop and think about what they are actually comparing."

Unless they read this or otherwise gain information, no, they may not stop and think. One reason I came here to ask the question, is that those who do this are annoyed and self righteous about being asked to "stop and think about" it, let alone actually change their behavior.

Thank you. I am truly moved by your eloquence. This is why they call us "bleeding heart liberals" :cry: :spray:

Perfectly stated.

I don't even bother anymore, and yes, I brought it up a few years ago and got flamed to hell. LOL!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2489766&mesg_id=2489766

I can't even... wow. My mind is just...

I keep trying to... wow.

Edit: Okay, I've composed myself (barely) enough to add that this is a great comment and summation of the two evils of racism and homophobia - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2489766#2499522

I had this sense about this Group and AA issues in Big Forums.

Does anyone recall if "back in the day" ( "back in the day we didn't call it "back In The Day" " :spray: ) when groups each had their own movements but seemed to work together in terms of a broader movement, coalitions official or by proximity -- was that an illusion? I was a youngster but I don't believe it. I know that groups worked together and ultimately for peace and civil rights for all.

What about now? One of the big communication problems seems to be education and basic awareness of (recent!!) history. Is everyone so stuck in their little box of identity and demographics, that getting together like that again is unimaginable?

I have advocated for that on DU to be at least ON DU, a solidarity of common cause. Not a popular concept. Gets you in trouble. Even accused of trying to divide, not unify :crazy:

I would have been confused in the poll choices by the words "compare," "combined," "continuation of the same fight." They do compare, they were combined in "justice for all" and could be again (even if my view of the civil rights era is little-kid too idyllic) (and I know it's not because I recall the bloodshed as well) and IMHO they ARE "a continuation of the same fight."

What I have advocated on DU is that people quit infighting and look at who and what is really in charge here; look at what are the forces that subjugate all of us, in one way or another.

I know that women's rights advocates relate to the struggles of black Americans (and I've done it) and know a bit about the history of Abolitionists and Suffragettes working together. IMHO the gender rights issues of women and GLBT are intimately related to each other and to the power structure that has historically defined them. Not-a-starter on DU.

To me it seems that ACTUP did what it needed to do to kick start the belated response to AIDS. And the in-yer-face energy continues. So a big picture discussion of joining forces to address a larger system of oppression ain't likely.

On your poll, the title question would have to be a "no" if the question is "100%." The first response was "The fact that you are posing this question suggests you have doubts about civil rights for gays being as valid or as important as they are/were for blacks. I'm sorry to see this poll on DU."

That's fine except it wasn't a question! It was an assumption and condemnation and pronouncement right outta the gate!!

I posted as gently and affirmatively as I could, whether someone would consider the history and maybe reconsider the assumption that "they just want to humiliate us" -- realize that is not what was going on with segregated water fountains. Someone else replied with a tirade about how their group is demeaned by haters, a readymade rant set off by another mistaken assumption/projection. The hair trigger tempers are... not conducive.

So if the people more intimately involved than I am, can watch the civil rights "metaphors" be tossed around with equanimity, maybe I can too.

:grouphug:

the civil rights "metaphors" be tossed around with equanimity, maybe I can too." In this regard, I have witnessed repeated attempts to correct and educate members, but to no avail. I, personally, have concluded that people who continue to throw out these metaphors do so out of blatant disrespect, not ignorance. So, don't be surprised to find groups that stand down. Not only on their own issues but others as well.

So, don't be surprised to find groups that stand down. Not only on their own issues but others as well.

Exactly what's happened here, I think, with alot of us.

IMHO that marginalization "degrades the quality of discussion for all."

Which is why I have spoken up on this and other miscommunications.

I don't even know what to say.

What seems like recent history may seem ancient to some. It may not be taught in the schools. If it is, lessons may not convey the power of the historic experience leading up to familiar images of water fountains and lunch counters. (Just flashed on Raymond Saunders. I have OPd here about my eye opening encounter with a collection of black memorabilia, the racist products and packaging that have been disappeared from the public eye).

One very good question there:

"Blacks weren't considered "worthy" of full civil rights; can someone explain how that is any difference here?"

That history before the water fountain would be one answer. That "3/5ths of a person" thingie way back when. The eloquent statements in this thread. Mention of not knowing who the great-great-great-relative is. A country or region of family origin.
And this gem you point out:

"What compounds the evils of racism is the inheritance of depivation - the theft of whatever benfit one generation may strive to leave to the next. The generational cascade of racism's harms cannot be compared to the evils of sexism or homophobia or even religious intolerance. At the same time, there's no redeeming virtue whatsoever in a "lesser evil." Evil is evil."

actually my husband's (he's white) "I don't recall there being ships filled with gays, forced into slavery," and stripped of every civil right for years to come. Being and African and an American, the comparison is at once trivial and insulting on both sides of the Atlantic. It doesn't stop me from promoting the right to marry but that comparison is a serious turn-off when there are more profound arguments that can be made for the cause.

Spot on. :toast:

comparison that simply will not work :eyes: for many supporters, let alone the ignorant. It just seems so defeatist. Well, may be that's it, that the proponents of it think breaking the fight down in the most simplistic terms is for the ignorant in hopes that it will open their hearts.
But please, I wish they would stop using it on those of us who are not stupid.

That seems to be the mystery. It doesn't seem to be about "opening hearts" either.

I just don't get pushing a comparison that simply will not work for many supporters

At the end of the day, that's really all that needs to be said.

and have had to literally WRESTLE him away from the computer.

He is not only white but Australian and he finds the casual and frequent "back of the bus" comments and others here tremendously insulting and really just plain stupid more than anything else.

For a second, he didn't think that the people making them could possibly be Americans. But then he remembered the number of interactions he's had with Americans in the past where he had to explain their own history to them and it became it bit clearer.

Amazing! Glad to hear it gets him going, too!

how many non-Americans know American history better than many Americans. It is MORTIFYING. In every country I've ever lived, it's been soooo very telling how the whole world seems to know our history better than we do.

My husband loves military history. He can tell you about every major battle in every country, including the Civil War. He mentions battleground locations in the South where I grew up or lived and when I give him my "huh, what?" look he just rolls his eyes. :)

When I was about 19, I started reviewing for the naturalization test. We were so worried about my mom passing it, especially since she loved irritating us to no end by speaking bad English. I mean having grown up and educated here, I just knew that I would pass. My dad fantastically knowledgeable about world history, no problem. But she would say I've watched enough television and the news to figure it out. Ugh!
That was the hardest test I've ever taken, I passed by a point (75%). My mother, 100% :rofl:

Some Civil War history here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=8458970

Went on this tree tour on Memorial Day
http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=14984
http://www.sacbee.com/ourregion/story/1890768.html
http://capitolmuseum.ca.gov/VirtualTour.aspx?Content1=1416&Content2=538&Content3=534

I miss so much on DU and I never think of California during the Civil War. You're a well spring of information!

:rofl: My poor darling hasn't gotten into too much trouble explaining their own history to them. And when some of them realize who his wife is, it's curtains for certain. Too many stories to go into there, as I'm sure you can imagine.

But your husband is absolutely right, as in Omega minimo's previous response in that it is about education. I mean the legacy of the control of slavery to even the way a Black person could laugh (Laughter!!???) is beyond heartbreaking, these nuggets and more are left out and we're left with a boiled down civil rights movement that can be used as comparison. Maybe in 200 years but certainly not now. It just doesn't work.

the way the history of that era and its icons have turned into cut and paste marketing tools to sell -- what were those khaki pants? I proudly cannot remember the brand name.

I posted on DU about Harriet Tubman using her dreams to tell her where to go, to get through safely, find shelter, etc. Very interesting.

Never heard about the laughter. That makes sense though. And laughter is HUMANIZING. Can't have that :sarcasm:

It's in PDF that I hate. The Sounds of Black Laughter and the Harlem Renaissance: Claude McKay, Sterling Brown,Langston Hughes
http://americanliterature.dukejournals.org/cgi/reprint/80/1/57.pdf

Of course, there's is included a little history before the Harlem Renaissance.

Not trying to go off topic, just trying to show the depth of inhumanity and the inane comparison.

The need for hyperbole of this particular sort shows both great ignorance of history and the incredible oppression of the Jim Crow era that created the need and events of the Civil Rights era, both of whose influence continue to the present day. It's even more annoying that the same people that would invoke those images are likely the same ones that would bake themselves in the sun for that "gorgeous tan", but wouldn't set foot in an African-American historal display or museum and learn about the topic.

which many of us (me included) don't know fully and would be horrified, in disbelief, to understand.

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can't say anything about the matter if they're too ill or deceased....

As I understand her version, the woman was tired after work and too tired for the insanity of where a body sits.

People throw "empathy" a lot lately. That's what seems to be missing from these comparisons. Empathy for the history, the people who lived it, the people who inherited it (and live the repercussions), empathy as respect for a sensitivity born of experience.

Mad TV I like and Keegan Michael Keyes is brilliant. He does a bit as a talk show host, proud AA activist and historian, interviewing a young airhead American kid with no real connection to her famous activist father's legacy. Answering his interview questions in a way that has him ready to walk off the set. It's painful and funny and -- kinda what the casual use of painful imagery suggests some folks are like. Getting nasty about having that use questioned and then turning it around to how it insults THEM just boggles the mind.

I don't understand why. Other people have filled this forum up with links to posts on this board that demonstrate an insensitivity or lack of understanding on the subject of race.

(In spooky ghost voice) Beee carrrreful whaaaaat yoou saaaayyyy!!!


OOoooooooo...!!! :scared:

calling for various groups to join in common cause for a new progressive era -- which makes sense if Obama's message meant anything -- could be seen as trying to "alienate."

:yoiks:

...was your link from an open thread or a locked one?

in the threads linking to insensitivity (or lack of understanding), i always asked members to ONLY link threads that were locked (per rules violations) and/or archived (locked after a certain amount of time).

doing so helped to maintain du forum rules guidelines (of not "rallying the troops" to threads that were still open). it also cut out any possibility of members attacking based on being "called out" within our discussions of these threads.

from time to time, someone would link to open threads--which meant i would post a periodic reminder about linking to open threads.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=258x3450#3829

i honestly can't speak to why your thread was deleted.
i'm sorry to see that it was (deleted). i just wanted to clarify for you what precautions i tried to take to ensure that such discussions could take place here (how i linked w/out having deletions).

hope this is helpful,

:hi:

There may also have been a comment, true, legitimate, respectful, etc. that monitors found objectionable or verboten. :think: Not sure what it might have been.

...and as others have shared, we do have some "lurkers" to this area. Someone may have seen the link, (objected to it for whatever reason) and alerted on it. :shrug:

y'all have already said what I would say.

I think historical ignorance among the general population, white, black, and everyone else, is virtually pandemic in the U.S., and it is reflected here on DU in the narrow outlook of people who know their own group well, but very little about others.

Also, some of the younger generation don't have a clue about the struggles and history of their own group! The impatience here is amazing, the lack of historical perspective is everywhere.

I found this organization, the National Black Justice Coalition.

Their mission statement says: "The National Black Justice Coalition, www.nbjc.org, is a civil rights organization dedicated to empowering Black lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people. Our mission is to end racism and homophobia."

There is an essay from the President of this group on the site that sums up my feelings on the matter so beautifully and so succinctly, I thought I'd post it here.

The essay is located here: Civil rights belong to every citizen, gays included

The entire essay is lovely and I agree with every word she wrote, but this statement is like this woman reached inside of my head and put it down on paper:



At the end of the damn day, I think that is all that each and every person in this thread, on DU and in the whole damn WORLD has been trying to say. And acknowledging that difference and showing respect for that difference does not make someone a homophobe or a bigot, no matter how hard the more closed minded amongst us try to convince themselves and others to the contrary.

point. Totally profound. Bookmarking.

:grouphug:

I wanted to give you a thoughtful and cogent answer to your question without the usual level of snark which I have been known to insert into replies. You took time to ask a question rather than assume that you know how we should think and then make accusations of bigotry which frankly is why I stay far away from most GLBT discussions. I felt the answer you receive should at least have had more effort put into it than the usual.

Let me preface my remarks with this: I believe in marriage equality. The government should not be allowing marriages for some but not others. As a secular nation it is unacceptable that we allow religion to impose its sensibilities on our laws. I could care less if the church refuses to accept or perform gay marriages but the City Hall of any town has no business saying denying marriage licenses to anyone who is of age and eligible (ie not married to someone else) Marriage in our society conveys certain benefits and to keep citizens from being able to enjoy those benefits when they clearly are willing to take the accompanying responsibilities is unconscionable. As to our military, they take orders from our civilian government. To argue that our service men and women cannot handle serving with homosexuals does a disservice to those who serve who I assume are more mature than a bunch of college frat boys and those who are not will either come correct or get their asses booted out. However, the way people use the history of struggle in the black community to make their points vis-a-vis gay rights is frankly offensive.

Far too often the reference to the black community is used as a throwaway line. It is flippant and when an objection is made the first accusation is that of bigotry. I cannot speak for all but this pisses me off. People died to get the modicum of civil consideration we have now. Respect for that is warranted. You don't hear people saying flippantly "get in the oven" They wouldn't dare because people on this board have learned enough about the Holocaust not to be so flip. Yet they throw the term "get to the back of the bus" or "broom jumping" as was the case in another thread with no thought whatsoever as to how disrespectful it sounds.

What's worse, it seems to minimize what is still going on in this country with black people at this time which shows a great deal of ignorance o the part of many around here as to what still needs to be done. So when someone takes umbrage with the lax language the other retort is "Oh, so you got yours so fuck you! Is that it?" No that's not it? And when did I get mine anyway? A black off-duty cop was just shot dead in the street by his fellow NYPD officers. (Apparently, even after going to work at the same place day after day you still can't be recognized out of uniform by people who are supposed to be your colleagues.) Stories are coming out about how Wells Fargo targeted black and brown people with sub-prime loans apparently because they could make more money selling loans that are designed to go bad than to sell loans that people can pay back. The police target people who look like me, the media loves to portray people
It feels like black struggle (not unlike black culture) is co-opted by some whites but then the respect that would come from an understanding and an appreciation of the struggle is just not there. So it feels not unlike the music world when a record would sell if you put a white face on it while it was black people who came up with it in the first place.

I don't really want to pick on the GLBT community on this though because the uber-feminists on this board do the exact same thing and frankly it pisses me off more than when GLBT community does it. It's as though white women seem not to understand that 1. the greatest beneficiaries of affirmative action were white women (because if you have to hire women or those black folks which would you rather do if you were a bigot?) and 2. The feminist community has it's own problems with race. They are quick to want black women to be in solidarity with them but when it comes to our issues they don't really want to listen. They prefer scolding and dictating and that's just not cool If you look out there at the black and brown feminist blogs you'll see what I mean. (And frankly I just find the notion of the word "bitch" being a slur on par with the "n" word ridiculous.)

The struggles are similar but there needs to be an acknowledgment of the differences otherwise it just feels like yet another white co-opting of something black to use for their own purposes and who doesn't get tired of people who'll listen when they think you're cool but when you need help suddenly don't know who the hell you are?

Regards

...for putting into words so clearly, something i've been trying to find the words to express(but could not).

an example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=341&topic_id=13392

there were others, some deleted.
this is just one that i felt comfortable linking, as it is a locked thread.

I fell out of my chair when I read that.

:rofl:

:crazy:

:spray:

i was just grateful the mods deemed it worthy of a lock.

(to my prior post):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=238639

OMG OM I sure hope folks know what "latent" is!


Something about me: I grew up in diverse cities in a most diverse state.... to the point that life in an ivory tower, coastal University town where everyone was the same (overwhelmingly white) it was overwhelming. It didn't feel like the real world.

When I first moved out of the family home, I was in a largely white, upper/middle class area where my new friend (I thought) started dropping the N-bomb like nothing. I was astounded. Called them on it. "Oh that's just how we were raised" (mostly white schools and suburban neighborhoods).

Given my family, that never "could have been me" but I realized I dodged a bullet of proximity. If that had been my environment, would I have been so casual about it?

I'm glad I wasn't the one making that lame excuse.

:toast:

(from feminism forum--see posts #6 & #7)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=341x12900#12907

i'd like to go on record as missing thecatburglar (name chgd. to mrreowwr_kittty) she was awesome in her ability to smell racial insensitvity in posts (and posters) that routinely went on about sexism.

with respect to many gay americans trying to overcome hate-crime violence, 'second-class citizenship' and fight for mainstream acceptance...This is a very simple and effective frame that goes WAY back: "Why should a certain group be denied rights the rest of America get?"

things diverge in respect to segregation/institutional racism (gays can be born and/or easily merge in just about any regular community), and face-to-face prejudice, since many gay americans choose not to show any outward signs of their orientation...


FWIW, it does not disturb me at all...

That's where the discussions in open forums get messy and one reason I was motivated to pose the OP question. If one questions the DIRECT comparison and identification with imagery and history that is unique to African Americans, the responses come back in terms of broader, less specific similarities which were not in question. The subject is changed, but the argument goes on, as if a common struggle for universal human rights is not what we are ALL about. As if questioning the use of certain unique imagery/experience as watered down "metaphors" equates with not supporting equal rights for all.

And that is so sticky, I didn't want to be piping up if that horse has left the barn and it's a lost cause. The "Juneteenth" thread is intended to provide information and potentially address the miscommunication that way. And we have all learned from it! What a great time. So gratifying.

Thank you for your comments. :toast:

The OP:

So I have come in respectfully to ask for opinions on the comparisons between civil rights issues. There are comparisons, but I am asking for this reason:

It seems too much to claim that the struggle for gay/lesbian marriage is equated with specific aspects of African American civil rights. The claims that the marriage issue is just like "sitting in the back of the bus" or "whites only water fountains" seem to trivialize the realities of the historic and current African American experience -- from how captives were brought here, through to today, when socioeconomic issues remain unresolved and Katrina NOLA shone a light on the blindness of the public to televised genocide. The history and the imagery are too intense to be watered down. IMHO.

...on this, Blue_Tires. Far too frequently, people seem to think of "groups" as "monoliths." If one is a woman, you feel one way--if one is a latino male, they have to feel this way. Know what I mean?

How many times have we seen comments that seem to think "all black people"_____(fill in the blank).

It's important for us to not be afraid to express opposing views, even amongst ourselves. I appreciate that you braved a thread where so many others expressed a view slightly different from your own. So, thank you for doing so. :hi::hug:

You are such a lovely person, Bliss. And fwiw, I completely agree with what you've written to Blue_tires.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5866170

Look what we did!

...for such a lovely thread!

:applause:

and though this is late, Welcome to our forum, omega! Hope this won't be your only appearance here.

black people don't support gay marriage. I suspect you are about to see lots of examples of behavior I for one cannot stand.

and the reason ?? didn't pass in CA. I only made one post to correct 'civil rights' to 'equal rights.' The reply was bait. After all of this communication on the subject this last week and before they know the difference and CHOOSE to be obtuse. I will not respond or comment further.

i am black, and i support marriage equity.
i am a lesbian, and i support marriage equity.
we also disappear when people don't think.