When did you come to terms with not believing?

My husband received a cryptic IM from a business colleague early this morning that said "I use to agree with your wife, but now I agree with you". It turns out he thought I was a believer and that my husband was an Atheist which is funny to me because I'm the Atheist while my husband is Agnostic.

This man is middle aged and was a devout believer for the past 16 years, but now he isn't. My first thought was "Damn, what happened?" I'm honestly concerned that something horrible happened to him and now I'm questioning why I would instantly think that since I didn't become an Atheist this way. Then again, I was never a strong believer and my philosophical views on religion were formed at a young age. My hope is that my first thought on this man is completely wrong, but I don't know if I'll ever find out.

Now I'm curious about the journey of other Atheists. When, why and how did you come to terms with not believing?

Me: I remember riding in the backseat of my parent's car thinking about religion and Christianity in particular when I decided I no longer wanted to pretend to believe any more. I was 12 at the time. When I announced this to my parents, my mom looked back, smiled, and told me she understood. That's when I found out she was an Atheist too and that my father was Agnostic. They decided not to discuss their views with me prior to that point because they wanted me to come to my own conclusions.

But the final "I have to be what I believe" came about 11 years ago, when I married my husband. Before that, I was still trying to believe and trying to take my daughters to church so that I wouldn't be a "bad" mother. He is a "strong" atheist, and so, it gave me the freedom to finally come to terms with my own lack of belief. When I told my family...my younger brother and sister were like "Oh, cool...so...how's Florida?" My parents...well, my mom never said anything at all, except that she loved me anyway and my father tried to really understand how I felt and why. He still clings to a deity, though they haven't gone to church in years. My older sister thought I was condemning my children to Hell and that I was a child abuser.

My journey began when I was 6 and we were learning about Adam and Eve in Sunday School. And, they had two sons. When Cain killed Abel, he was banished from the garden of Eden and the Bible says he 'married a daughter of man". So, me, being the smart kid that I was, raised my hand and asked "If Adam and Eve were the only people in the world, how did Can get married? Did he marry his mother?", which of course, went over like a lead balloon to the Southern Baptist youth pastor I had.

But, over the years, there were so many more questions that no one could answer for me. How could people live so long (900 years??)? Why don't people still live for 900 years? and so on, it went. When I was 15, I was at a Calvary Baptist Church and our youth pastor told us that adultery could never be forgiven, that "sexual sin" caused God to turn away from us. This included thinking about sex and masturbation and anything that was "outside of marriage". Well, problem is, I KNEW that my mother had committed adultery when I was 8, so I pursued this line of questioning with "Pastor Mark". Turns out that my mother was going to hell and there was no way she could prevent it.

I worshiped my mother then and I love her still. She was one of the greatest women I've ever known. And it just didn't sit well with me that here was this God that was going to send that wonderful woman to Hell, just for one thing she'd done. I mean, my DAD forgave her, why couldn't GOD? And then they dropped the big one on me... it wouldn't matter if my mother went to Hell, because I wouldn't remember any of my family when I got to Heaven, anyway. I was just going to sit around singing songs to God.

That was a real deal killer for me. From 16 to 27, I tried on a bunch of religions for size, but it all seemed so stupid, more like mythology than real. But, who knows how much longer I would have tried to believe if I hadn't met my husband. Knowing that there is someone in the world who always "has my back", makes it easier to be a non-believer.

edited to correct subject-verb agreement.

If you approach questions from an intellectual point of view, you cannot be a believer. You have to believe without question. Your struggle reminds me of my own. My aunt kicked me out of Sunday school for asking questions. She said, "You aren't suppposed to question; you are supposed to BELIEVE."

church on Easter Sunday. Although we looked every bit a normal family, our nuclear family was anything but normal. I reflected on the sermon as we walked. The preacher had said that "anyone who believeth upon the Lord, Jesus Christ, will surely be born again..." I slipped several times while trying to keep my balance on the broken sidewalks and I was looking down at my frilly socks and new black patent leather shoes that Grandma had bought for me trying not to fall. My father was calling me names for being so clumsy and I thought, "Boy, when I am born again I sure hope I get better parents." I had intuited karma. No one could make me take religion seriously after that no matter what penalty was threatened.

"come to terms with not believing"

That's a good way of putting it, actually. For those of us atheists who used to be believers, there definitely is a "coming to terms" with non-belief. Looking back, I was probably ready to be an atheist, based on what I had read, learned, and experienced by high school. But years of conditioning make you feel guilty to question your beliefs - so I just kind of gradually retreated away from them. First I felt that I was still a "Christian," but that no earthly church was right. Then I felt that maybe Jesus wasn't a deity, but still a man close to god. Then god began to slip away and I fancied myself some kind of Buddhist. The final step was all-out atheism. It was difficult. Lots of emotional and familial investment in religious beliefs, when it all comes down to it.

It was the loss of a shared identity with friends and family. I don't remember actually believing, although I do remember being a kid and afraid not to believe.

but I have to say that I never had to 'come to terms' with it. It never was. I went to Sunday school, etc, until I was 11, because my family went - and I was a kid. But when I was 11 I told my mom that I just wasn't getting the hoohaw and did I have to keep going? She said no. End of story.

I walked out of Unitarian Sunday School when I was 7, because none of the Bible stories made any sense.

...like the former Muslim from India, who was interviewed in the CBC documentary Atheists: Spreading The Word.

He had one of the most beautiful metaphors I've ever heard for coming to terms with non-belief. As I remember, it was something like this:

One night I dreamed I was in my garden. A large man was standing near me. At first I thought it was my father, then I realzied it was God, or my idea of him.

I looked at him and said: "I'm sorry. I just don't need you any more. You will have to leave." And he walked out of the garden.

You can find the documentary on YouTube to see how badly I screwed it up. :-)

In my own case, I was raised Southern Baptist. Though as a child, I also saw varieties of (Fundamentalist) religious experience that would have put William James on the laughing-gas permanently.

After getting away from home I did a lot of reading and exposed myself to different religions, only being arrested once or twice for exhibitionism.

I went down the same path many of you probably did, from a specific god to the vague idea that "there MUST be something out there." And finally to the point of, "Well, no there isn't." I was kept off some very dark paths by personally knowing people who got sucked into stuff like $cientology.

And so here I am, a happy atheist. Or to ironically quote Martin Luther: "Here I stand. I can do no other."

I gave up on traditional Xianity as a teen. But it took a looong time to completely purge all of it. Did lots of searching for THE ANSWER through other religions etc. Xianity wasn't working for me, but I still wanted some sort of easy answer.

Ultimately it was reading the wisdom of other atheists and seeing their strength that made me realize what I was afraid to admit - I was searching for the impossible. Time to accept and enjoy life instead of avoiding reality.

but 'The God Delusion' and 'The fable of Christ' books made my Atheism concrete.

I spent a lot of years in the medical field. When someone would die and we readied their bodies for transport it became painfully obvious to me that dead is dead. There is nothing else.

Prior to that, I spent years in doubt despite my southern baptist upbringing. It was considered a sin to 'question' god and expressing those doubts was just that as far as my family was concerned. So, I was pretty much left alone with my own thoughts.

That wound up being a good thing in a lot of ways. I came to my own conclusions after going back and forth through the years.

My mother and sister does know, but they absolutely won't discuss it. I think they're afraid. It's for the best to just leave it alone.

With my own kids...we don't make them go to church and we'll let them make up their own minds about religion. It's not a subject we discuss much.

My mom dragged me to religious school every Saturday morning or Wednesday evening but by the time First Communion came around in first or second grade the Catholic church had made if very plain that I was not of any real value to them. Being female and a child was not valued and adult women were/are only good to clean the church, raise money and indoctrinated the next batch.
I always figured if there was some all knowing thing out there it would be smart enough to figure out who was good and who wasn't, because way too many of the people around me in church were fakers - They pretend to be all holy but would step over or on you to get what they wanted. I always thought it was too funny that they thought and still continue to think that they could fool their all knowing god. Makes me wonder how many truly believe or use the church for their own purposes.

I never even realized I was supposed to believe that stuff. I lumped it in with fairy tales and Santa Claus - things you were expected to pretend to believe in. When I figured out (much) later that some people really believed the religious stuff, it shocked me and seriously shook my confidence in their powers of reason.

I didn't know about anything other than the Christian view when I was twelve. I never knew there were alternatives until I was in college. Then I got to thinking and it all made sense.

I don't consider myself an atheist. I consider myself an agnostic secular humanist.

My parents never took me to church but they let me go with my friends. I would spend most of my time looking at other people and wonder if they really believed in this god stuff. The only time I didn't feel like an outsider was when I went to Quaker gatherings with my best friend because everyone was so nice and relaxed. They never made me feel pressured to say/think/believe what they wanted me to.

While my parents didn't go to church, it seemed like everyone else around me did (since I'm from Texas, it was probably true). As a kid, it's easy to think you should do or think something in order to fit in so declaring my beliefs was a huge deal for me. I don't know if the way I worded my thread is offensive to some, but I honestly did have to come to terms with my Atheism.

I sit around a lot wondering if any religion is real or if it is all fake. I wish I could lean one way or the other, but I can't. I read everything from Richard Dawkins to the Bible to books on Buddhism, but I cannot make up my mind on what is real or what isn't. It's a constant struggle every day.

I'm glad you've come to terms with your beliefs.

I have never been a true believer but I was raised with the idea that I was supposed to be. I spent a lot of years looking for something to make me believe. It seemed like everyone I knew did. I could never figure out why I couldn't get it. I went to many different churches read many books on the subject. I finally gave up and went on with my life.

Years later I took another look the god question. It seemed so obvious then. I was never able muster up the faith it took to believe in something that didn't fit with my view of the world. A view filtered through science and reason. A view based on fact not fantasy and fear.

I am 51 and form most of my life I tried to believe in something but nothing ever "fit." I thought the stories I had learned in the Bible were pretty unbelievable but as a kid I accepted them because that is what the adults were telling me to buy into. As a young adult I began searching religions for one that felt right but NONE did. I became agnostic - always reserving in the back of my head that there HAD to be something. But about 5 years ago I came to the conclusion that there is no god or goddess or being and that is when things felt right. I am an atheist and feel comfortable for the first time in my life.

I grew up in the LDS faith and they were really crazy... I mean wackaloons.

And that is why I settled on saying I'm an Agnostic Pantheist. The pantheism fits the notion that because there is consciousness in the universe then, at least part of it, is conscious and nature is the only thing I see that could be a being. Since I'm a being and nature is a being, then it would be reasonable that the collective of the consciousness in the universe, whatever that is, constitutes a beingness. Now I don't go so far as to say that that beingness thinks or acts in a deliberate way beyond natural law (the universe) or gives a shit about me or nature or anything else.

We are just some metaphorical versions of fungus that grows on some planets and adapts to different environments. There is no heaven, no hell, only an opportunity to enjoy being homo-sapiens and evolved enough as a fungus to be self conscious and enjoy exploration, emotion, and the contrast between the pain and the pleasure of being for a short time. I know that this is existentialism and I don't have any argument that existence might precede essence or essence might precede existence And that is what I settled on as my construct and resolution of being a believer and non believer at the same time i.e. Agnostic Pantheist. And I could be wrong and that's no big deal and nothing new to me either.

so I doubt anybody's going to beat you up.

Alan W. Watts, years ago, did a series of lectures broadcast on NPR. In one of those lectures, he described two polar opposites of belief as "prickles and goo." The "prickles" people saw the universe as mostly empty, except for widely separated "prickles" of matter. The "goo" people saw everything in the universe as being connected by a miasma of spirit or energy, or "goo." Both theism and atheism fit into all sorts of places on this particular belief spectrum, and it was an interesting way to look at how other people view things.

So while you might cross swords with the more prickly types on the board, your lack of sufficient ego to require a personal deity is enough to keep you here.

You can pick up your EA/AC* card and rubber chicken in the lobby.


*Evil Atheist/Agnostic Conspiracy

:thumbsup: :hi:

I guess I'm a pantheistic atheist, or a spiritual atheist.

Nice choice of avatars for a spiritual pantheist. That's essentially how I describe my pantheism, similar to native American pantheism. I relate to mostly natural pantheism, but also scientific pantheism. Nature based spirituality is much more powerful for me. That's how we evolved over many millions of years, to sense our surroundings and to derived pleasure from them. Scientific pantheism is more cerebral. In that sense, I'm an Earth oriented pantheist, not so much cosmos oriented. I love to watch the Northern Lights and love Carl Sagan though.

As far as Christianity belief goes, I never really believed in a Christian God. Then as a teenager, I grew to being an agnostic, which grew into atheism by my early 20's. Always into science, math, and engineering, so we tend not to be a religious bunch.

I never accepted religion and totally rejected it at six years old when I noticed the discrepancy between the time frame of the planet's actual history and Genesis. And I never saw it as a metaphor because if there are metaphors in Christianity, they are not ones that make sense to me.

But then my mother was very hands off and never said anything about it and we never went to church or anything. And apparently my friends and teachers at school were also very hands off because I don't remember anyone talking about it there or pressuring me about it or making a big deal about religion.

If I was indoctrinated as a kid, it was with things that I didn't mind being indoctrinated with because I tested them and they made sense to me - not being prejudiced, valuing diversity, sharing, and so on.

kid. seriously.

I began to think. I told a priest teaching a class that I could not believe that using some form of birth control was wrong, especially for people with a lot of kids and little money.
I was told amid a lot of subdued comment from my classmates that I could not be a catholic if I believed this.
I was later told that I was certainly destined for hell.
I asked several times to be transferred to public school, but my parents would not allow it.
Stopped attending church at 12-13.
Can't stand any type of religion, or even very much authority BS to this day.
Will soon be 61, I guess I'd call myself an agnostic if I thought it was important enough to classify myself that way, but I don't think about it much.
I can't understand why people get so worked up over such obvious bullshit.
mark

as long as I can remember. I'm not from MO but I am a 'show me' person. Open to opinions, but they need to make sense, and I've never heard any arguments for any religion that made sense.
I enjoy reading books on Buddhism, but as philosophy only.

Edit to add: That didn't mean I didn't play at going to church (S Baptist). It was the 'socially acceptable' thing to do and 'everybody did it.'
Didn't mean I believed any of it.

Holy Mother, The Church, did not subscribe to the doctrines of biblical literalism or inerrancy. I thought if the Pope and the Church say the bible is more allegory than fact, what basis is there for believing any of this nonsense? Ans since I was also pursuing a degree in astrophysics, I was taught the scientific method, which demands skepticism.

An early life filled with a Catholic indoctrination, with a devout Roman Catholic Italian mother, in a predominantly Italian neighborhood in NJ ....

After all that: I was confronted by a statement by a Priest that Hindus cannot go to Heaven because they did not accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior ...

"Even if they have lived exemplary lives ?" .... said I ...

"Condemned to hell", said the Priest ...

"Even if they have lived perfectly good lives and have never learned of Christ?" ??, I replied ...

"Condemned to hell", said he ....

I was suddenly lifted outside of the purely dogmatic theological world constructed for me, and confronted by a question of basic fairness as a part of humanity: If a man is good, then he is good completely, and even Jesus should accept a perfectly good nonchristian human being ...

That conversation began at age twelve .... by sixteen, and just after my Confirmation, I declared myself agnostic ...

After considering a re-defined deity, from an earthly pagan-like nature god to a huge puffy energetic cloud of universal creative love, I realized such definitions were anthropomorphizing my experiences and earthly concepts I learned from others (I realized this later on) ..

I realized that without OVERT and UNIVERSALLY accepted evidence of a god as exactly defined by a specific theology, that such claims could not possibly be held with any intellectual integrity .... I experienced this personal revelation at age eighteen ... I have yet to see any such universal evidence for any deity ...

I became Atheist then, and I have never looked back ... That was 33 years ago now ...

From this: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1820685,00.html?cnn=yes

Is this being discussed anywhere here on DU?

To grossly oversimplify it...

I attended many different services on weekends trying to decide which kind made me feel like God was there. In many of them I felt a very strong sense of warmth and community, but when it came time to pray, talk in tongues, or whatever, I always felt nothing. I'd always felt nothing while growing up trying to "talk to God." I'd always attributed this lack of feeling to my parents' ways.

It didn't take many visits for me to understand that it wasn't just the institutions that were the problem.

I was shocked and insulted that people actually expected me to believe that stuff because "somebody else said so".

It puts me at a disadvantage because I can do no before/after comparisons, I cannot offer advice or encouragement to believers who are skeptical, I have no idea what it's like to realize that everything I was taught as a kid was bullshit.

Instead, my life has been one WTF experience after another: Wait, why can't I buy beer on Sundays? Why is sex bad again? Why do I have to show deference to a god that doesn't exist? Why are pudgy old men allowed to make laws denying me my reproductive rights based on their fairy tales?

argh

The religious viewpoint was counter to the sciences I was being exposed to. Eventually, it became too ridiculous.

my parents didn't indoctrinate me into any mode of thinking. I sometimes attended church with friends, methodist, pres, a cath, etc.growing up. I attending a unitarian church, too. Thanks mom and daddy! I've been in the closet though for the most part but am just glad to be part of this group. I mean, for real!!! I recall comments like, you have to be god fearing and I would say, o yes, I'm god fearing! (I didn't even know what that meant!!)
once, someone said I had to believe jesus died and was reborn to belong to this great big fancy church in nashville. (big woop now). And yes, Dawkins monumental book, the God Delusion, pretty much confirms it for me.

Really Reflect Up? A story about a Catholic Boys school.

One of the boys in the story (probably the main character, it's been a while...) asked the question, "If god is all powerful can he create a rock he can't lift?" And my mind was blown and the questions just started pouring in.