Atheism and Antitheism*.

This subject brings to mind a friend of former days. This person was one of those people who rejected parental control to the extent that whatever her father said, she did the opposite (or approached that outcome to the degree possible).

I tried to explain to her that she was being as much of a slave to her father's wishes as if she had simply gone along with everything that he said -- because she was driving herself to act in a predictable and responsive way to his wishes. (And had he been a little wiser, he could have manipulated her to a degree that he would have had a hard time believing possible -- at least until she "caught on". But he was a "straight shooter" type of guy -- and this cost both of them a great deal.)

However, as usually happens when you give people good advice (particularly when it is free -- and you are just some schmo), the message never quite sunk in.

The point of my little story is that being an atheist does not entail being an antitheist. Indeed, antitheism as a reaction to theism can mean throwing out the "good" with the "bad".

Myself, I was an antitheist for a long time. But then one day I realized that this was the same sort of reactionary behavior that my friend was running (and ruining) her life by... So I stopped being an antitheist.

Now I don't give a damn what people believe -- except insofar as this is expressed in their acts. (Speech is an "act", but generally of lesser weight than something that directly effects the physical world.)

However, this is not to say that beliefs that lead to unacceptable acts are "good" and should be blithely accepted. But, in the end, it is acts that matter, and any theist beliefs that lead to principled (and, of course, otherwise "acceptable") acts are not inherently atheism's enemy -- it is only so to certain atheists.

Atheism can be principled or unprincipled -- and there is a certain clarity that making this decision a matter of choice brings about. And as a principled atheist, I am happy to find anyone who practises similar principles -- no matter what their drivers are (although fear is not high on my list of preferences). For many people just don't have the strength to be atheist -- and of those that do, fewer still burden themselves with any but the most convenient "principles".

Of course, I expect to be given back something resembling the respect that I give to principled "believers". But then, "respect" is one of my fundamental principles -- to the extent that it is warranted.

*: I use antitheism (and antitheist) here as meaning opposition to (and especially scorn for) the belief in God.

...

I find myself unable to resist a little poetry... Clearly, I am losing my mind.

Here's to her memory:

Damaged Goods.

Damaged goods,
Love, I would.
Love, we could.
Love, we should.
Love is good...
For damaged goods.

Some anti-theists might be so due to being warped/negatively affected by religion as children. I agree that anti-theism and atheism do not go hand in hand. But, it could be that personal experience of plays a role in anti-theism.

An argument you sometimes hear from theists is that you need religion to tell you how to be good. One of my atheist friends replies that the golden rule is all you need to get along in life. And I think that's true. There might be exceptions, but I think you have to twist your mind mightily to find one.

I, as a teacher, have sometimes been pressed to lay down rules for my classes. And I always top the list with what I refer to as "Rule Number One" which is, "Always be nice." It is not as clever as the golden rule, but achieves the same effect. It's also one of my favorite movie lines from "Road House." It makes it easy to reference, especially teaching young people.

Well, I try to keep that in mind, but around here dialogs do sometimes get heated. In those cases, I speak to the argument and not to attack the person. I do that pretty well. Interestingly, there are those who will say I have insulted them, this at the same time they are calling me names. Stubborn, pig headed and childish are some recent ones.

On the other hand, I have been the beneficiary of extreme acts of kindness from some very religious people, and if that is their motivation, who am I to argue. Some very good people attribute that goodness to their religion, and I can only say, "God bless 'em!"

I don't start conversations about religion, and since some people are uncomfortable with the word atheist, I use a euphemism like, non-religious or free thinker. If I don't think there is a benefit to higher discussion, I may just say I agree with what they say. This may be patronizing, but what would be the point of arguing? One of the aspects of colloquial religion is the tenacious loyalty of the believer.

DU is an exception, because I believe people come here to partake in the discourse. I don't try to argue people out of their beliefs, rather I point out that if I were to hold those beliefs it would lead to contradictions and inconsistencies that I couldn't maintain.

Anyhow, Necso, thanks for starting this thread. I guess I gave more than two cents. I hope it's worth two cents.

--IMM

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc.htm

I find it interesting that some concepts are (widely, if not completely) transcultural.

I would find it impossible to crystallize my own beliefs into a single statement of rule. There are many factors that effect how I act towards another person (or anything else for that matter), but if forced to a single word, I would probably use "respect". (Any acquaintance normally gets a certain amount of respect from me to start off with and gains or loses of this measure as our mutual experience develops -- usually spiraling swiftly downward to some level of basic courtesy -- although there are greater depths, including open hostility. -- Of course, I am commonly considered a rather hard case.)

But it is surprising how widely a little "respect" can resonate -- and it is sad (to me) how little it is practiced anymore.

However, I do believe that our society (indeed our whole world) is in a systemic cultural and ethical decline (as I define it -- and one must consider my biases). The shortfall of common courtesy (etc) on this board, for instance, is to me just a symptom of its decline in our society as a whole.

Personally, I am willing to conform to any number of foreign (to me) "norms" (for a short time anyway), and I have gone so far as to console a fundie acquaintance when his wife died, by stating that "She was in a better place", and using similar platitudes. (I even made a special trip to his house to do so.) He's a "nice" guy and does lots of "nice" things for people (including a mutual friend, although the former also gets played for a sucker more than a little), so it was just my way of paying respect -- in a manner that he could relate to.

I wouldn't dream of trying to "convert" him, and they have made only passing attempts to convert me. So on some level the respect is (or was in her case) mutual. Of course he also believes that I am going to hell -- but I don't spend too much time worrying about it.

That sort of sectarian doctrine aside (fear is a great motivator, however, and this "lesson" should be appreciated), you don't have to be a believer to appreciate the value of some "religious" teachings. The "Golden Rule" is an example of such a teaching, although personally I find it a trifle over-simplified. I do, however, recommend it to other people as an ideal worth considering since it is a concept that extends well beyond Christianity.

and hated Him/Her/It. If he could have put a contract out on god, he would have.

Joseph came from a Jehovah's Witness family that took it pretty far; they were extreme even from what I know of JW. Short rations of food so they could donate more to the church, no science classes beyond the minimum required by the state, no foreign languages (because that is what glossolalia is for), things like that. I would call them abusive, but the one time Joseph get a teacher to call him in to CPS, they basically came out, saw a good Christian home, and left. We were friends from 5th grade until he committed suicide at the end of his senior year of high school... he killed himself because he had been rejected from every university to which he applied because he didn't have the languages requirement...

He was brilliant mathematician and would have been an incredible scientist. And I think he had reasons to hate god. He sure as hell had reasons to hate religion.

Pcat

I have one little problem. Every god I have ever come across, and I come across many because I love to read mythology, are created in some human's mind. So far no one has been able to show me their god, if you get what I mean.

I know what you are saying and to some extent I agree. I don't care how a person arrives at living a good life. A good life meaning, being happy, working hard at what they want to achieve and letting others do the same without interference, perhaps a little charity.

I don't care if they come to that reality through some religous belife or some other philosophy. And I'll repsect them for being thoughtful and consistant.

Yet, I have to admit to at least leaning antitheist because I don't believe following a philosophy that is based on myth and fantasy to the exclusion of reality leads to good things. I'm all for using myth for object lessons and to provoke throughful discussion and insight, but not as a basis for understanding reality.

I am an atheist, meaning that I reject any religious belief. I am also anti-clerical, meaning that I consider any officer of any belief as a dangerous individual, who should be barred from any public responsibility and systematically denounced as mental equivalent of a drug-dealer. I consider anti-theists as part of my family. I will take their side if needed.