Atheism a religion?

I'm sick and tired of hearing that it is.

...but some people can only think in those terms.

Then there are the really logical thinkers, who conclude that since we don't believe in a god, we must worship the devil.

What assholes!

Since she goes to church and I don't. To me, kindness trumps emotional abuse.:shrug:

Just the opposite.:shrug:

From Wikipedia:

Religion, a controversial term sometimes used interchangeably with faith, is commonly defined as belief concerning the supernatural, sacred, or divine, and the moral codes, practices and institutions associated with such belief. (emphasis added)

I looked at other definitions of religion and the vast majority define it similarly. We are born into this world with certain attributes, skin and eye color, etc. Others are there from the start but don't exhibit themselves immediately: handedness, sexual orientation. But religion is none of these, it's a voluntary option.

We are not born with a hard wired belief in God and as we grow up find a religion that best fits our belief in "him" with atheism as one of those options. No, we are all born atheists and religion is a later option, an option that most people don't even realize is an option.

I dunno, I guess it helps them cope with the fact that some people don't believe in gods at all. :shrug:

He says agreeing that atheism is a religion is a good way to protect our rights and ensure that we can fully participate in American politics. Every time he makes this argument I get this tiny little migraine behind my left eye that throbs and throbs and throbs...

I hear the words to Pink Floyd's "One of My Turns" in my head.

"Run to the bedroom, in the suitcase on the left you'll find my favorite ax."

to count how many times I've argued against that christian "spin".

Trotsky's right, many cannot grasp the concept and must resort to defining us by using their terms.

You cannot educate those who wish to remain ignorant, if we could, we wouldn't need to have a separate group on DU.

Is atheism:

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe? No
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship? No.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. No.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. No.

3. and 4. could be contended by picky, inattentive and/or oppositional pupils. Please pay attention to the words.

not all by itself anyway. It may be a core componet to some philosophies but atheists of as a group are as disverse in their ideas and philosophies as any other group of human beings.

If only for the political protection.

My opinion is that if we are to be protected FROM religion, we must be considered one.

I posted a thread a while back which explained as follows.

Freedom of Speech: I have the freedom to verbally express my opinions to the public. I may choose NOT to excersize this right, but am protected from others who may use it against me in a harmful manner. (ie. Libel/Slander)

Freedom of the Press: I have the right to express my opinions in writing and through public distribution. I may choose NOT to excersize this right, but am protected from others who may use it against me in a harmful manner. (ie. threats of voilence, promoting of hatred/bigotry against me)

Freedom to Peacibly Assemble: I have the right to assemble with a group of my peers in a peacful manner to express views to the public. I may choose NOT to excersize this right, but am protected from those who may choose to use it in a harmful manner. (ie. protesting on personal property/trespassing)

Freedom and the right to bear arms: I have the right to own a legally obtained and licenced firearm. I may choose NOT to excersize this right, but am protected from others who may use it in a harmful way against me. (ie. using a weapon against me not in self defense or protection of property.)

Freedom of Religion: I have the right to participate in any recognized religious branch or to hold assembly for the purpose of religious ceremony persuant to state and federal laws. I may choose NOT to excersize this right, but SHOULD be protected from those who may use it in a harmful manner or a manner in which would affect me in an adverse way.

This is the problem, without Athiesm being recognized as a "religion" on a political level, we are not afforded the same protections FROM said freedom in the same manner in which many others are protected. Theoreticly, it was intended to be such, but has not been so for many decades. This is why I believe that Athiesm/Agnostacism should be recognized and protected in the same way other freedoms and rights are protected.

In this concept, I would only want Athiesm to be POLITICLY considered one, for the simple fact of the acknowledgement, acceptance, and protections.

As far as on the theological aspect of it. I would NOT consider Athiesm to be a religion.

This is like the question, "How many legs does a donkey have if we count the tail as a leg?" Answer: four.

You will collect your rights from whom by insisting that no religion is a religion? And they will agree to this?

You're being silly.

--IMM

end of all protected freedoms.

We are not given freedom FROM religion because we are not acknowledged as such.

Our opinions ON religion are broadly ignored because, we don't participate in it. We have been outcasted and ignored, while our true rights and freedoms are completely ignored.

Theologicly speaking, indeed we are NON-Religious. No one would argue that.

On a political level we should be. You like being ignored? You like not having your opinion heard because you have NO RIGHT to speak on issues of religion and its involvement in polotics?

You can call me silly, but its you who is being naive.

What are we arguing here? Freedom FROM religion or the ability to voice our opinions on religion and have them heard?

I and others have repeatedly stated we came here because every one of us felt like to post the same stuff we post in here in the GD forums we would be mercilously attacked by swarms of pro-religious people.

We are not changing anything in here.

And I'm being naive?

Do you really think calling atheism a religion will change how they deal with us?

--IMM

but it breaks down to a yes and no response to that.

No, we should not be CALLED a religion, but we need to be invited to the table on all issues REGUARDING religion. Since, their actions adversely affect us more than any other group or religion.

We need a voice, and are not given consideration while religious isntatutions pander with impunity.

We need to be given credibility, and seeing that we have many great scientists and philosophers who support our way of seeing the universe, why shouldn't we?

Basicly, we need SOME identity, and since on this aspect, it is ABOUT religion. We need some good PR.

:evilgrin:

The problem is to find us a hook by which we can debate issues on a level field. I admit that I am at a loss to provide that.

Considering A/A a religion, unfortunately does not work well, because our opponeents will shift their views as it suits them. They will say that we are a religion when we argue for logic and reason, and they will say we are not a religion when they use religion to mean virtue.

My best guess, at this time, is for us to be consistent, and deny religious status. And then to deny religions status where they offer services or concepts which are duplicated by secular institutions, such as education or morality. I would not allow us to do anything which requires getting a fair shake from them. They believe that their ends justify their means.

--IMM

"My opinion is that if we are to be protected FROM religion, we must be considered one."

You want us to be protected from ourselves? That makes no sense.

It's not "if you can't beat 'em join 'em." It's leave us the hell alone and do NOT force us to live OUR lives based on YOUR religious rules and beliefs.

hmmm?

We getting lots of voices heard that aren't being torn down as simply anti-religionanti-American rhetoric?

We doing a good job of protecting our rights from religious intrusion?

We doing a good job of keeping religion out of polotics?


I think that POLICALY we need to adjust our tactics. Become a recognized and ACCEPTED part of society.

We have organized groups for gun control, pro-choice, environmental protection... so why not us? Why should we continue to hide out and be treated like radical anarhists? Why shouldn't we throw our hats into the ring and fight for OUR rights too? We do this every day, I hear and see people ACTING like they are religious just to avoid persecution. Why should we continue to allow this persecution to even exist?!? THIS is an issue of civil rights. The civil rights movement didn't get things done by hiding. They got things done against an oppressive government, and prejudicial populous, against a power much greater than themselves, by fighting back.

Is everyone so afraid of religion that they have become a mere afterthought while our rights get steamrolled? Are you going to rely on small numbers of religious orginizations to stand up against their own to defend YOUR rights? I don't think so...


So please, just think about it. How much shit are we willing to take?

I don't agree that atheist should be categorized as a religion. I do however think atheists need to do a better job of getting a seat at the table.

And that means taking some lessons from organized religion. They have a ready made common culture that gives them language that easily articulates their values and provides inspirational stories.

Sure we do as well but it's very dispersed and individualistic so it doesn't get the large scale penetration the religious language gets. By our very nature we're more individualistic and it will be difficult to find a balance of coming together to find common language and remaining the individuals we are.

It also means coming together to do good works. Thus showing that we can lead and what our idea of "good works" are and that our atheist values not only exist but lead to doing good for society.

You might actually be living next to a really great person who just happens to be atheist! :)

My neighbors know exactly where I stand. And they don't seem to have a problem with it. Frankly, my family has a harder time with it.

Let's just be ourselves.

something about lying about being religious just to avoid the confrontation or to avoid persecution. It makes me cringe. I realize that what indeed we were facing is oppression. That this was more of a civil rights issue,much more that I had even thought it was in years past. Why should we allow this to keep happening? How many others out there might feel the same way but be afraid to "come out of the closet?" People just don't understand what we say when we say that religion is being shoved down our throats, like the only form of doing so is the door to door preachers... *sigh*

the Council.

I suppose I would agree with you on the majority of your post. I just don't believe that we would get a seat at the table without first joining the club. We are in such stark contrast to everything they believe in, they are afraid of what we bring. I think most Athiests don't really want a total ban on religion, as most of us support ALL freedoms, but I think we definately have a religion tolerance threshold. They past that threshold during the Regan Administration, we got a bit of reprieve during the Clinton years, but I think the Impeachment hearings are what set the foundation for this "moral majority" and "family values" bullshit. All based around and preached by religious leaders across the country. The right wing zealots are using religion as a weapon. One that reaches across party lines, and beyone social issues, to the vast majority of christains in America. They have numbed the left wing christians by using their faith against them.

was just an example of muscle flexing or a "milestone" for the moral majority. They got their start in the early 70's and reached significance with the Regan administration.

I don't need to become a republican in order to speak out against them or let them know I don't wish to be repressed by them. Sure, I'm all for speaking out AS an atheist AS a part of a larger group of atheists. You do see the difference, don't you? And furthermore, there are plenty of religious people who also want US to be protected as they themsleves wouldn't want another religious group forced on them.

because we are Democrats and belong to another group of substansial numbers that speak out with a larger voice.

The problem is that we all don't speak out as a group, we often run rumshod voicing our concerns only to be gang-raped by the religious communities. Or we spend our time preaching to the choir, in the safety of our own small bastions of religion-free community.

Simply put, we have no identity other than the one that was given to us. That we are immoral, anti-God, anti-American, freak, valueless, satan-worhiping Anarchists.

We have become complacent, and are afraid to speak out and demand respect. Come on... tell me I'm wrong.

and that is that it would make sense to create another religion in order to gain freedom from it.

I can agree with just about everything else you said. But I am not afraid to speak out and demand respect. I'm also not afraid of "not identifying" with any relgion. I don't need it!

I just believe that we wont be recognized by anyone to stand for anything but what they have portrayed us to be unless we have an identity and a voice. We don't have to give up our anti-religious beliefs, but demand a seat at the table in all discussions that involve religion, because what they do, affects us most directly.

See what I'm saying. We aren't trying to become a religion, but to demand that the religions hear and respect our concerns when dealing with issues, they get their voice, we should have our. It IS about religion, even if we are not religious.

But I can't. I do disagree with classifying non-belief as a religion.
We definitely do need to organize in order to have a voice, but I think we would never be taken seriously. Not to mention they would call us hypocrites for trying to invent for ourselves what we have (rightly) criticized in the past.

That is a good way to get dialog going, however, and we do need to start thinking out of the box.

B-)

And we cant rely on the religious to do what it takes to stop it.

Right now we just come across as raving lunitics...

I just see that Atiests, though as different as can be, are the front line of defense against religious oppression. And like the soldiers in Iraq, we just don't have plan, and don't have the equiptment we need.

Ask them what the liturgy is.
Ask them what the sacred books are.
Ask them to find a congregation.

These damned fools can't see anything outside their own terms and experience.

come on guys, let's just call it a religion and each of us our own priest. This way we can abuse the system just like theists have done for a long time. I mean come on, I'd love to have myself and my property tax exempt! }(

on that faith-based charity government give-away?

Because the moment atheism is declared a religion, the Fundies will be jumping up and down screaming, "We told you so!"

They've already come up with the cock-eyed idea that teaching evolution means teaching the tenets of a religion called secular humanism. That's one of the loudest (if dumbest) arguments they have for forcing Intelligent Design/Creationism into science classes.

Besides, I don't want to have to get up early and go to a meeting on the Atheist Sabbath...;)

see my post # 32.

I was just being a smart-ass asking about the jesus dollars! :P

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PEOPLE, beware, this is a real site, not a spoof as I first thought when I heard the commercial.

This asshat is on TV occasionally. His name always cracks me up. It's just TOO perfect.

Wonder what his name was before he found the Perfect Scam? I could probably find out if I searched enough records for embezzlement and fraud arrests.

:evilgrin:

Even his sales pitch is unoriginal. Paul and Jan Crotch...er, Crouch preach the same Jesus-as-CEO gospel. Their spread in Orange County, CA, makes Jim and Tammy Bakker in their heyday look like a couple of raggedy-ass tent evangelists.

TBN is very appropriately located near South Coast Plaza, one of the biggest and most expensive shopping malls in California.

And not far from a Major Competitor in the Jesus Biz, the Calvary Chapel/Maranatha Village complex.

The guy told me the first time his roomate saw the commercial, he literally pissed his pants from laughing so hard. I thought he was making up their name-Dollar, it was just too bizarre,
This, of course, was before 2000, when I actually thought that I lived on a planet called "reality".
Yeah, I've seen a picture of a texas "baptidome" I think is what one du'er called it.
Like a branch davidian complex for rich people.
Scarier than hell, IMO.
And they're worried about US?

although there are ATHEISTIC religions. ATHEISM per se is not a religion.

It's just that simple.

There's no God either.

It's just that simple.

There's no supernatural; something either exists or it doesn't. There is no extra-reality or hyper-reality or quasi-reality. There is reality...no more, no less.

It's just that simple.

I'm too callous to be sick and tired of it, but I used to be. Now, I'm merely amused by all of the monkeys in denial. It's like living in Jungle Habitat. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: