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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 08:45 AM
Original message
The primary wars have started for me
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/17/22368/1758#c152

I'm not letting one more moment of hypocrisy go unanswered:

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2007/1/17/22368/1758/149#c149

I realize now that my annoyance with Edwards has little to do with whether or not Kerry runs. Plain and simple, this guy is a liar who will say anything to get elected, and he needs to get CALLED on this. What's terrible is how he makes Hillary look good. That's how bad his latest tactic is.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
1. I was just saying this in another post. And, I don't want anyone to make her look good. n/t
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
2. Interesting article on Clinton in UK paper the Guardian
Blow to Clinton campaign as effort to win over Iraq critics falls short


· Fight for Democratic party presidential ticket hots up
· Failure to denounce war could cost her party vote

Ewen MacAskill in Washington
Thursday January 18, 2007
The Guardian


Hillary Clinton faces serious competition for funds. Photograph: Susan Walsh/AP

Hillary Clinton risked being outflanked in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination yesterday when she revised her stance on the Iraq war but failed to go far enough to satisfy anti-war critics.

Mrs Clinton, who voted for the war in 2002 and has so far refused to repudiate that, took to television and radio studios for a media blitz yesterday morning to set out a new position after a visit to Iraq and Afghanistan last week.

But she still remains well out of step with the other main potential Democratic candidates - Senator Barack Obama, Senator Joe Biden, and John Edwards - who all have clear anti-war credentials.

Her shift came as opposition gathered momentum in Congress against President George Bush's planned 21,500 troop increase. Democratic and Republican congress members published a draft joint resolution, to be voted on in the next few weeks, saying "it is not in the national interest of the United States to deepen its military involvement in Iraq, particularly by escalating US troop presence".

More at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1993010,00.html#article_continue


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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I put the link on another thread yesterday,
but I heard an NPR phone interview with her yesterday about her brand spanking shiny new Iraq War position.

It was like she was trying to channel JK - I swear - every single thing she said has been said months - or YEARS - ago - and better - by someone else. Someone else named John Kerry. I had "TOO LITTLE TOO LATE" screaming in my head.

How does she come to style herself a "leader"? And who except the true HRC believer could sign on to such a late - and weak position? Does she have any positions she actually believes in????
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. We should repost the Q&A section from that CFR speech
from Dec 8, 2005. Specifically the part where Richard Haas asked Kerry about what he saw happening in Iraq in 2006 if his proposals were adopted.

Very illuminating.
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Good idea.
Edited on Thu Jan-18-07 09:59 AM by whometense
Do you know offhand if there's a transcript anywhere?
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. Here it is. Read carefully
From Dec 8th, 2005 speech at the Council on Foreign Relations in NYC
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9390/real_security_in_a_post911_world.html

MODERATOR: Okay. Let’s wrestle with Iraq a little bit. I think you mentioned that U.S. troops are an incentive to the insurgents, and you said 2006 is the year we should get the troops out. On what timetable?

KERRY: On a timetable that is set by a series of benchmarks of accomplishments. And you do what’s necessary to achieve those benchmarks. Let me give you an example. I said in a speech I gave at Georgetown a few weeks ago that we ought to pull 20,000 troops out after the elections on December 15th. Why? That wasn’t arbitrarily chosen, and it’s not arbitrarily set. We put an additional 20,000 troops in — approximately — for the purposes of providing extra safety for the referendum and for the elections. I support that, and I support — and the election, I think, is going to be a momentous event, a very important event. It’ll be another momentum event. We’ve had several momentum events in Iraq. When the statue fell, it was a momentum event. When Kofi Annan offered the world’s help, they refused it. Afterwards, you had a government that was chosen in election, but it took them three months, four months before they came together — momentum lost. We can’t afford to lose momentum after December 15th, and I think part of the creation of momentum and the transfer of the sort of heeding of our generals is to announce publicly — and Secretary Rumsfeld actually did on TV last week, but it was sort of a major, bold statement — “We’re pulling out 20,000 troops. We’re cutting back to where we were.”

The next major event is going to be the constitution itself, which has to be ratified by April, and that is going to be the central issue of determining the future of Iraq, in my judgment. It’s going to be determined politically, not militarily. And unless we do what’s necessary — and it hasn’t been done yet — and, you know, I had a long conversation with King Abdullah when he was here, and other leaders here, you can feel the sort of frustrations of the lack of significant effort within the Sunni world to bring people to the table sufficiently, including the Shi’a and the Kurds, so that you get the elements of compromise necessary to resolve what the constitution did not resolve.

Now, Ambassador Khalilzad, in my judgment, is doing a terrific job. I respect him. I think he’s been very good at trying to make up for lost ground over two and a half years. Whether it’s behind the 8-ball so much that he can’t is yet to be determined. But the benchmarks beyond that have to be set — the president began to address yesterday — not sufficiently, in my judgment — is how you get the reconstruction, how you provide the jobs, what kind of projects are you going to set; how rapidly can you transfer authority for Anbar province, Nineveh province, or, you know, run through the different provinces. You only have four provinces where there’s major conflict. You have 12 provinces that are pretty quiet. And it ought to be possible to reduce the American presence and pull them back into a more rear garrison status, which is what I would have done a long time ago; push the Iraqis out into the more average, day-to-day kinds of operations.

Now, I’ve said in my speech that we’re going to have keep American special forces capacity there for some time to come, and we’re going to have to chase intelligence that’s hard intelligence for some time to come, to chase a Zarqawi or somebody. But the only chance of diminishing the sense of occupation, reducing the targeting and beginning to establish confidence among Iraqis is to begin to transfer that authority.

And again I say, folks, we’re not asking them to fight World War II. We’re not asking them to engage the Warsaw Pact or something, not even asking them to fight against armed forces in any kind of uniform. The two killers in Iraq are IEDs and suicide bombers, and 160,000 American combat troops aren’t going to stop that.

Unless you defuse the elements of the insurgency itself, which is motivated by several different ingredients, you don’t have the ability to be able to reestablish the sovereignty and the independence necessary in those troops.

So you set a series of benchmarks, Paul, beginning with the election — that’s benchmark one — moving on to benchmarks you set about specific areas of responsibility for security. You pull back. You’re there to back them up. They start standing up more. And then you turn over whole provinces, and you begin to reduce down the numbers of troops as you stand them up. And that’s precisely how you begin to change the entire dynamics of the region.

Final comment:

The jihadists are the least present. The president finally admitted that. For two and a half years, we’ve been fighting in America about the war on terror, the central front, jihadists, but finally the administration acknowledged what we’ve all been saying for a long period of time. The jihadists are the lowest percentage of insurgents.

And if you talk to Shi’a and talk to Kurds and talk to Sunni — and those of us who have gone over there have — they don’t want those folks there. You get those folks standing up for themselves, and Zarqawi and company are not going to last long in Iraq.

So the real way you deal with this is to accelerate that stand-up. And I don’t think we’ve done it sufficiently, but we can — those benchmarks.

MODERATOR: So just to try to quantify it, 160,000 now; this time next year, if you were in charge —

KERRY: I believe you could get at least 100,000 out over that period of time, bring it down to somewhere in the vicinity of 30(,000) to 40,000, and then, you know, you’re going to have to see where you are. But the — that would be my goal. And I would not do it on a fixed automatic table; it has to be results-coordinated. And that’s the way I would do it.


MODERATOR: And you don’t buy the argument of some who say that, look, Americans are the focus of the jihadists and the insurgents; let’s just get them all out, out of the — after the election?

KERRY: I think if the United — I mean, when you say after the election, you look at — look at Congressman Murtha’s proposal that has drawn such heated fire from the right and elsewhere. He has talked about approximately a six-month period. But he’s also talked about sort of a results-connected process. He sees it in six months. I don’t. I think it’s going to take longer, and I see it as more connected to the series of events that I’ve talked about.

But in the end, if you just up and left in a matter of a month or two months, and there isn’t a sufficient base underneath you, you will, as I said in my prepared comments, encourage the radicalization of the region, have an enormous negative impact on those who are seeking this transformation in the Middle East that I talked about, and, I think, endanger our interests as well as other people’s interests in the region.

But I think you have to find the best way to get out of a terrible mess that has been exacerbated by almost every single decision they have made. Think how extraordinary it is that almost three years afterwards, we’re just getting around to this business of doing what we’re doing now. It’s stunning, folks. And we still have the same secretary of Defense who was the architect of this.

What’s happened to accountability in America? I mean, you know, this would not have stood in prior generations, I believe. And it says something about all of us that it’s allowed to stand today.


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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Biden has clear anti-war credendials? Edwards has anti-war credentials?
compared to Hillary - yeah - and didn't some tall very dignified Senator have an amendment last summer?

The Guardian used to be one of the better UK papers - this is just stupid.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. The spin is in n/t
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Unfortunately, it goes to what we were talking earlier.
Kerry has been written out of this race and, as long as he does not declare, it will stay this way.

They are not discounting Kerry's anti-war credentials, they are discounting his potential candidate status.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. I agree. They mention all those who have declared or stated exploratory committees,
except for Hillary, because everyone knows she is running without even declaring. But, yes, if he is going to run or if he isn't he should say so soon or risk just being a small note in some obscure news paper. He has been written off already by many pundits. And, frankly, he owes it to his supporters to let them know one way or another. If it is a no run, than so be it, but get it out there, so that we can get over the pain and focus elsewhere.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Which is why you are right, he needs to declare
The problem is that when you come down to it can you trust any of the so-called anti-war voices-

Edwards has acceeded my expectations in being a charlatan.
- (in the NewYorker article) taking Bush/Cheney off the hook saying they didn't lie or even mislead - the word Kerry used because it was true even if the Oct 2002 intelligence was simply wrong). There are 3 things Edwards gives up here for his own political gain. (1.) That Bush, at minimum, cherry picked the intelligence, (2) that different people saw different levels of intelligence (3) That in March 2003, diplomacy was not exhausted, that the inspections were still productive and it was very clear that there was no imminent threat.

- (in the Blitzer interview yesterday) He has the chutzpah - to accept as his own the RW smear that the vote against the $87 billion was to defund the war. Given that he was for the war then, that's unlikely

- He likely has annoyed a significant portion of the Congress with his attack on them.

These rule Edwards out as standard bearer in my estimation - he can't tell the truth and he is willing to concede RW points.

Biden -
He has credentials, but they don't seem to came together to form a vision. I really didn't like the 2005 CFR speech where he praised Bush's innaugral address and hit the left in the spirit of bipartisanship. Also, he will drive everyone insane as he goes off on folksy tales of Catholic school, nuns, and oh, yeah - he's Irish - which had NOTHING to do with Iraq.

Clinton - they had a big voice and they did not speak out - not in 2002 when inspections were promising, not in 2003 when Bush signalled he was invading, not in 2003 with Abu Ghraeb, not in 2004 in support of a Democrat, not in 2005, and in 2006, they worked as hard as they could to AVOID a discussion because of political reasons which was immoral - and by the way, wrong politically.

Obama - was against the war from the beginning but was disappointing last summer on the amendments. The question is whether he is really experienced enough.

Dodd - has not had a high profile on this at all.

So, we need Kerry.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Dodd is probably the best on this regard. He has had a low profile,
Edited on Thu Jan-18-07 11:20 AM by Mass
but I remember that, a couple years ago, Feingold included him (along with Kerry, Kennedy, and Byrd) in the list of those who have been pushing to have a debate on Iraq in the Senate.

He may not favour a deadline, but he wants to get the troops out, had the courage to go with Kerry in Syria and Iran (where were Biden or Hillary or Biden'leadership on this point), and his bill to cap the troops in Iraq is a good bill (Kennedy and Boxer are co-sponsoring it).

In my opinion, Biden is not a strong voice. If anything, he has not been helpful at all pushing a debate. The only things that matters is him.

As for Edwards, this is pandering.

Of course, I mean the best except Kerry.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. I had a positive, but not specific impression of Dodd
from the SFRC and his excellent speech on the torture bill. He also, like Kerry, does a nice job of crediting others. I like that he kept referring to Kerry in yesterday's SFRC meeting. (Biden ONLY talks about himself - and the nonsense yesterday was so high school.)
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
6. I joined you - thanks for the heads up
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
8. What irks me the most is that he is taking the anti-war mantel
without offering anything or recognizing anything.

There are plans in both the House and the Senate to stop the escalation. He should be calling people to bring this plans to a vote. Rather than doing that, he is acting as if nothing was done.

He is now implying he is for the troops out, but does not say when and how.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-18-07 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. You would think that strategically he would push for a house plan
Don't both Murtha and McGovern have plans? His plan is just hot air - as is most of his platform. I suspect he will simply poach the best that's there from others.
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