Anyone see this? - Democratic Underground

rox63

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:26 AM
Original message

Anyone see this?

Veterans For Peace are planning to occupy JK's Boston office, demanding that he vote against further funding for the war.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=158x11975

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MH1

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:29 AM
Response to Original message

1. Wow, that seems real productive.

Not.

Is Kerry the best target they can find?

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wisteria

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:32 AM
Response to Original message

2. Oh, really, what is wrong with going on the attack against those running for President?

Continuing to hound JK seems to indicate another agenda entirely.

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MH1

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #2

3. After reading that - apparently they are trying to corner JK because they think

they can get media attention that way, and they DON'T SEEM TO GIVE A DAMN WHAT IT DOES FOR ACTUALLY HELPING THEIR CAUSE -

I am sorry, but I am really beginning to dislike certain members of the "peace" movement.

Why, WHY WHY "occupy" the office, and refuse to leave, of someone who is basically on YOUR SIDE, unless he bows and scrapes at your own holy feet by signing your little "pledge" that will totally back him into a corner on negotiating actual progress?

:banghead:

sorry if I am mischaracterizing this, it is what I saw when I read the announcement at the link.

I want this war to end. I don't think what they are doing will help, and it pisses me off. Sorry if this opinion offends anyone here.

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emulatorloo

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #3

6. Don't understand that media doesn't like to show Kerry?

Although I suppose they would show this and not allow Kerry to respond/talk about setadeadline.com

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rox63

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #3

8. I agree with you

The person who posted it apparently is a member of VFP. Perhaps we should try to talk some sense here?

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wisteria

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Tue Feb-27-07 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #3

28. Doesn't offend me. I understand it. In a way, it is blackmail. n/t

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karynnj

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Tue Feb-27-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #3

36. Kerry can handle it

He can simply let them stay - avoiding a confrontation. He can order them pizza and soda. Doing that he denies them a victory - as they will have to leave eventually denied the confrontation they want.

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ginnyinWI

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Tue Feb-27-07 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #36

41. out of all the possible Senators to pick,

JK is one of the few who has enough credibility on the issue to be able to say "no" to their demand that he sign. Because he's been doing his own work on this in spades. Puzzling: why don't they go after somebody who needs to do more? Because they'd get nowhere, I guess.

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_dynamicdems

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #2

10. How far would they get with Hillary? Certainly not past the door.

Can you imagine Hillary Clinton even giving these folks the time of day? Obama wouldn't be much better. Or Edwards. Kerry IS a veteran. They are probably targeting him because they know the others would give them the bum's rush out the front door.

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TayTay

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #10

16. These VFP folks are CONSTITUENTS

They have the right to talk to their elected representatives and urge them to vote in a certain way. This is one of the most basic rights in a democracy. There is nothing wrong, and a ton of things right, with this action.

Chill out. Back down. Calm yourself. Relax. If there is anyone who could really engage with these folks, it's Kerry. Let it happen. It is a good thing.

We need more discussion in this country and more people who show up and strongly express their opinions to their elected Reps. It is a mark of honor that the elected Reps take these people seriously, invite them into their offices and LISTEN to them. (Damn, didn't anyone else hear a certain tall Senator make a speech about respecting DISSENT last year? Ah, I think he meant it folks.)

Chill. No problems here. This is a good thing. It is a good thing for Kerry. The New York VFP's will have to resolve their accessibility with their NY Sens. Here in Massachusetts, let the dialogue begin. Ahm, there is nothing to fear here. Nothing at all.

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MH1

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #16

21. What I took from the announcement at the link, is that they are trying to corner and embarass Kerry

It doesn't matter to me if they've "done it" to other politicians.

I think Kerry is handling it well and I understand that he is essentially on the same page as these folks, except that he won't sign their "pledge" because it's the wrong way to go about it.

But the post at the link is unnecessarily confrontational for dealing with someone who is one of their best allies.

JMHO.

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TayTay

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #21

23. Ahm, yeah, they disagree with him on this

So, the sides will get together and talk. Where is the bad in this? Sen. Kerry is responsible to his voters for his views. Ahm, something tells me he does not have a problem defending his views. The protesting group has a right to it's views as well. (Hello? Veterans for Peace. Ah, they will be listened to.)

I don't get the problem here. This is the democratic process at it's best. Yeah, the VFP folks might not get what they want. (I don't know this, btw.) So, then they do what they do and write what they write. That is the process.

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_dynamicdems

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Tue Feb-27-07 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #23

27. Absolutely: they get together and talk. This is a good thing. n/t

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MH1

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Tue Feb-27-07 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #23

30. The problem here is that they didn't ask for dialogue. They threaten before talking.

They say "sign our pledge or else!"

Sure, it's a mild threat, but it is still wrong. It is NOT "the democratic process at it's best."

You want "the democratic process at it's best"? In my county, the peace groups are holding meetings with Sestak. They asked, he went, and from what I understand, both sides talked and both sides listened, and they are both working to end the war, and recognize each other as allies. I didn't see any threat to occupy his office. (If I had, I would be mad at them, too - especially since he has been meeting with them. Doesn't mean it didn't happen though.)

In my view, the democratic process at its best is, if you have a grievance, you request to meet with your rep, you meet, you talk, and both sides are OPEN-MINDED to how to best deal with the problem. At some point, perhaps you become pushier. But not before you've even given dialogue a chance, and respected the other person's ideas as to how to solve the problem. The killer here is that Kerry is OBVIOUSLY working to solve the problem of Iraq already.

Starting with an attitude of "my way or the highway" just doesn't fly with me. It may be "anti-war" but it is not the way of peace.

(the good news is that Kerry seems to know just how to handle it to make it turn out well. Kudos to him, but it still isn't "the democratic process at it's best", by my lights.)

I'm sorry, I seem to be at odds with everyone here on this, so I'll just sit down and shut up now. If I haven't made my issue with VFP clear in this post, then I'm incapable of communicating it.

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_dynamicdems

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Tue Feb-27-07 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #21

25. Their style may be to corner and embarass, but I don't think they target for that reason.

They use whatever means they think will work. They are targeting Kerry because he is their senator and because he's also been high profile on the war lately. He will listen. He won't show them the door.

If they simply wanted publicity, they would be targeting the candidates for 2008, but as TayTay pointed out, they have a right to speak with their senator about the war. Confrontational has always been the style of anti-war movements. Even Kerry was a bit confrontational when protesting Vietnam, as I recall (polite and well-spoken, but confrontational nonetheless). Certainly controversal. Times are tougher now: people are brain-numb and need to be hit over the head. It is difficult to get the peace message out because society is apathetic. Nobody likes the occupation of Iraq, but few are willing to do anything to stop it.

More power to these people. I think they will find they have an advocate in John Kerry. Maybe they will be impossible to please. But they are doing a service by being vocal and I think Senator Kerry will recognize that.

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wisteria

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Tue Feb-27-07 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #16

29. They are being unreasonable. Expressing your view is one thing- demanding

you do something is different. My guess is they aren't willing to listen to reason, they are out for PR.

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TayTay

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Tue Feb-27-07 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #29

32. We don't know that.

The meetings with the other Reps were fair, reasonable and intelligent dialogs. I expect this one will be as well.

Demanding that an elected official do something is a fundamental right of the voters. It is a fundamental right for people to urge, demand, agitate for and insist that their elected officials do something. That is the essence of representative democracy. It does not matter if the views of the two sides are known before hand. (Which, again, is not the case here. We do not know what Sen. Kerry will say. We can guess, but that is all it is. Ah, he has surprised me on more than one occasion and could do so again.)

Democracy is not for wimps. You run up against people who disagree with you and you have to explain yourself. There are some excellent elected officials who do this very, very well. They understand democracy and the concept of listening to the people.

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wisteria

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Tue Feb-27-07 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #32

38. Ok, demand within reason. Insisting that your way is the only way

and trying to force your viewpoint on some else I think crosses a line. But, you know Mass and it's people better than I do so I will yield to your POV. We shall see what happens. No doubt at all that Senator Kerry will hear them out though.

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emulatorloo

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:40 AM
Response to Original message

4. Surely Hillary's NY office is not that far of a drive for them

they will get WAY more publicity that way.

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Mass

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:42 AM
Response to Original message

5. They did that to Meehan and Markey already. This is not aiming Kerry.

They will do that to everyone.

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TayTay

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:43 AM
Response to Original message

7. Well, yeah, they have been occupying all the Congressional offices

They went to Ed Markey's office last week. The staff had coffee and donuts waiting for them and listened to them. The Constitution supports a 'redress of grievances' and this group is simply asking for that. (They are going to the Congressional offices of everyone in Massachusetts.)

I hardly think that someone who got their start in politics and activism as a veteran opposing the wrongs of a war would object to this. Instead, I think Sen. Kerry would engage these folks, explain his position, understand any dissent that happens and pledge to continue a dialogue. He is not only a Democrat but a believer in democracy, and that includes the happy right of talking to people who disagree with you. I suspect, though I don't know, that Sen. Kerry will not sign their pledge. He will take pains to explain why. The protesters will urge him to do so and do what they do. Massachusetts, in my humble opinion, gains by this dialogue. So does Sen. Kerry.

This is a good thing. This is part of a healthy discussion between an elected rep and the people who voted for him. Let's see how it plays out. (Oh, and I do hope someone remembers the decaf as well as the regular coffee. And maybe some low-fat muffins as well. Those donuts are very fattening.)

I can think of very few members of the US Congress who would be less inclined to dismiss protesters who are veterans of the Armed Services than Sen. Kerry. This could be very productive airing of differences. Go for it!

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MH1

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #7

11. Here's the part I have a problem with:

The occupation will go on all day Wednesday until closing time and, if Kerry has not signed, will continue on Thursday. At some point some veterans and others may not leave when the office closes.

Why target Kerry?

Okay if they stay one night and go away on Thursday, that's fine.

I have no problem with them showing up, the redress of grievances thing.

I DO have a problem with the confrontational way they are posing it.

Because there are plenty of reps and senators that need to be convinced to end the war, and Kerry is not one of them.

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Mass

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #11

14. Same thing happened with others. You seem to think this targets Kerry alone.

Markey offered coffee and donuts. Meehan apparently signed.

Kerry has already proposed a 2pm conference call with these guys and I am sure he understands...

Not a big deal, and they also went to see many Republicans.

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MH1

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #14

18. The op of the linked post made no reference to those other occurrences. n/t

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Mass

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #18

20. This was posted in the MA forum...

Edited on Tue Feb-27-07 10:53 AM by Mass

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Mass

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Tue Feb-27-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #20

35. delete.

Edited on Tue Feb-27-07 11:54 AM by Mass

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beachmom

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Tue Feb-27-07 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #11

24. Yes, and what happened was my congressional office (right winger

Thelma Drake) LOCKED the doors and called the police on activists here. Had one guy arrested. At least one of them was an Iraq vet. Maybe that's why I am not alarmed by this at all. It just is so heartening that vets, no matter their opinion, are going to be treated with the utmost respect and get a real hearing for their grievances in Massachusetts.

The vets in my area only wanted Drake to state she was opposed to the surge -- and the response was to call the police.

Story here, in case some didn't read it last Friday night:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x277545

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_dynamicdems

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #7

12. I agree. Kerry will probably be happy to engage these folks.

Ending the war is a major goal of his, after all.

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rox63

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #7

13. Certainly he will listen to them

And I expect he'll be glad to engage them in a discussion about what he is doing to end the war. But I suspect he won't be willing to sign their pledge to vote against funding for the troops. And I don't know what they will do with that. I have no doubt that Bush would leave our soldiers stuck on the battlefield without the means to to protect themselves if Congress cuts off funding. And I think JK knows that.

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TayTay

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #13

22. Ah, these are the things Senators are elected to deal with

That is part of the tension in the electoral system. Senators, even ones we like, don't get a pass on this type of protest. They figure out what to do with it because that is their job. Some do it better than others. Wait and see what happens and have some faith.

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beachmom

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:43 AM
Response to Original message

9. I think you guys are taking this all wrong. This is a good thing. Really.

He agrees with these folks on the big picture -- ending the war -- but not on the HOW to do that. But KarenDC just had a post last week about how only 1 of 500 people had visited his office about the war. The fact that he has agreed to a 2 PM conference call with them is a very, very good sign. They're getting attention, they can speak of their grievances, and he will listen to them and be very respectful. He will state what his position is and why cutting off the funding would not be in America's best interest.

These people are constituents and deserve the utmost respect. Remember my congresswoman's office locking the door and calling the police on activists here? That is the opposite of how Kerry feels about talking to activists and voters, even if he disagrees with them.

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MH1

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #9

15. Yes and No.

I don't like the confrontational attitude.

Maybe they should have started by just showing up and talking to him - not by saying they would "occupy his office."

I am sure JK will take it better than I am.

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TayTay

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #15

19. They 'occupied' Markey's office.

And he signed their pledge. He signed their pledge and they still 'occupied his office' and read their petition, had some press coverage and so forth. NOTHING BAD HAPPENED! Democracy happened. People spoke, the elected official heard them. The protesting group then said the good and bad of the meeting. This will happen with the meeting with Kerry. Hooray! Dialogue, respect for the opinion of others and so forth are good things. It is what we want to bring back to this country. It is nothing to be feared.

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_dynamicdems

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Tue Feb-27-07 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #15

26. It bothers me when anyone criticizes or appears to criticize Senator Kerry too.

However, confrontational is the nature of an anti-war movement. JK will welcome the dialog with these folks. He will probably see it as an opportunity. I'd be willing to bet he'd rather have his office occupied by people upset by the war than his office empty of people upset by the war.

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MH1

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Tue Feb-27-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #26

31. It is not about criticism. It is about working WITH an ally instead of against him. n/t

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ginnyinWI

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Tue Feb-27-07 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #26

42. remember how Ted Kennedy came out to talk to JK in 1971

There are pics of him on the mall talking to Kerry and the other VVAW members. Hopefully this exchange will be as civil and productive.

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_dynamicdems

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Tue Feb-27-07 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #9

17. It is an opportunity for JK.

Yes, per KarenDC's post, Senator Kerry wants more people to engage on ending the war. This isn't a bad thing: it is an opportunity.

The people who want peace need to work with legislators to end the war. Kerry will listen to these folks and something tells me that they already know this.

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TayTay

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Tue Feb-27-07 11:45 AM
Response to Original message

33. What is wrong with these pictures?

This is what the prior 'occupation' of the offices looked like.

There is no threat to Sen. Kerry in here. This is citizens exercising their right to dissent and to appeal directly to their elected representatives for a perceived 'redress of grievances.'

http://smedleyvfp.org/page2/page2.html

Click on the occupation photos.

Ah, sorry, but there is no cause for worry or fear here. None. Let this happen.

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rox63

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Tue Feb-27-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #33

34. After seeing the photos, I suspect you are right

This doesn't look like a bunch of people out to cause trouble.

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Mass

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Tue Feb-27-07 11:54 AM
Response to Original message

37. Here is thre thread concerning Markey. This seems like constituents

who want to have their voice heard, nothing else.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=158x11886

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TayTay

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Tue Feb-27-07 12:27 PM
Response to Original message

39. Ah, let's see how this went in the past

TALK WITH SENATOR ENDS VETERAN PROTEST
Boston Globe (MA), (06-12-1985)
By Associated Press

Eight Vietnam era veterans who said they planned to occupy the Boston office of Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) to protest the Senate voting aid to Nicaraguan contras left last night occupying the office for six hours. They agreed to leave after talking on the phone with the senator for two hours.

"We spoke to Kerry in a conference call, and I realized that many of our goals are similar," said Jim Packer, 41, of Cambridge, a former Marine first lieutenant who served in Vietnam. "We agreed to leave peaceably at 11 p.m."

Packer and seven other former servicemen entered the office about 4:45 p.m., said Larry Carpman, a spokesman for Kerry, who spoke to the group from his Washington office.

Carpman said Kerry, who also served in Vietnam, and the veterans spoke on the phone for about an hour over the course of three calls.

Kerry opposed aid to the contras.

The protest occurred on the eve of a planned demonstration against the $38 million aid to the contras by Pledge of Resistence movement members. They plan to mass tomorrow at Boston's John F. Kennedy Federal Building, where the Kerry office is located.

In a similar protest against the US trade embargo of Nicaragua, 599 people who refused to leave the building were arrested May 7.

Packer, a hearing officer for the Cambridge Rent Control Board, said he and the other protesters represented a newly formed Smedley B. Butler Brigade, named for a Marine major general and Medal of Honor winner who served in Nicaragua in the 1920s.

"We are not connected with the Pledge of Resistence," said Packer. "The idea was that we were upset at the Senate vote and what we see as an escalation toward war in Central America. We did this as a protest against the Senate vote and the road to war . . . We've had the experience and we don't want another generation of vets."

This is nothing new. Kerry knows how to handle this. So do the good folks at VFP.

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wildflowergardener

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Tue Feb-27-07 01:26 PM
Response to Original message

40. occupying office

Didn't Kerry recently ask why there weren't more people calling and contacting him about the Iraq war. I don't recall where - if it was in an article or in his blog.

I think he wants people to be contacting him. I think it gives him something to back him up if he can say how many of his constituents have been contacting him about ending the war.

Meg

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Island Blue

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Wed Feb-28-07 07:34 AM
Response to Original message

43. Posted in GD this morning:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x307116

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wisteria

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Wed Feb-28-07 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #43

44. Thanks for posting- I obviously got upset over nothing. n/t

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