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No election fraud in Ohio and it's all Kerry's fault

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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 09:06 AM
Original message
No election fraud in Ohio and it's all Kerry's fault
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1973012

I think I'll come back when we learn how to fight the REAL enemy. :hide:
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fedupinBushcountry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
1. The question is
Do they think if Kerry fought the election results, that the final result out of the Bush power players would be any different? :argh:
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'm sure they do
But then they are either not living in the real world, or are pretty naive about it. I have confidence that Kerry did all he realistically could. 'Nuff said.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. What's weird is that many on the thread admit there was
Edited on Mon Aug-01-05 12:13 PM by karynnj
no proof - only stories and reports of odd things happening. With a 3 million nationwide loss and over 100,000 votes in Ohio, Kerry would have looked like a seriously unstable, deluded man to the vast majority of this country if he questioned it. Especially when he would have had to admit that he couldn't prove it.

This report, if anything, shows what Kerry was up against. The length of lines is a far better measure of the fairness of the machine placements. Obviously, if the machines could handle only n voters per hour - looking at votes/(number of machines) will show similar results. Also, the ballots in cities have more positions to vote for - so the average time spent per person is larger. This obviously doesn't address the people who left after waiting for some period of time and realizing how long they would have to stay. (a simulation study might be able to suggest the arrival rate needed to get lines of that magnitude - but I don't have a clue how anyone after the fact could estimate the number of people who walked away because they couldn't spend the day in line (in the rain). )

He was derided when he made his comments about fixing this in the future so no one would have to wait in 10 hr lines or have any other voter suppression techniques cause people to lose their votes. His comments have been VERY non-partisan, basic American values - and parts of the press still look for the weakest statement to dismiss his concerns. (They even had the chutzpah to criticize him for being so self absorbed as to talk about voting issues in Boston to a black audience on MLK day - as if MLK had anything to do with voting rights. (I think the audience (and MLK if he looked down from heaven) would have been upset if he DIDN'T mention it.)

This is a really hard lesson for the Democratic party. It is likely that 2 elections were "stolen". Even though the local governments are responsible for insuring the voting process works, the Democrats need to push that the system be fixed. Given demographics, it's probably true that minorities (and poor whites) have probably always had a higher % of their votes lost. In close elections, it may make the difference.

Some DU people's insistence that the blame for this belongs to Kerry is absurd. The DNC itself is far more to blame - Kerry in 2002-2004 was developing his agenda and positioning himself to run - just like Dean, Edwards et al - that was his job as the candidate. To my eyes, he had well thought out positions on all important issues and was well prepared to discuss them. That was the candidate's job and he did it. No one now is saying that the primary losers should have been working on voting machines and insuring that each precinct was setting up for a fair election. If anything, Kerry was a good candidate whose party's crumbling, argumentative infrastructure let down.

I really hope the LWV will be able to be used in a non partisan effort to clean up our elections. I just got a fund raiser letter from them and intend to contribute and mention the Ohio voting action. Like Kerry's comments that this needs to be addressed locally by activists - this seems to be a constructive action. Although I probably regret that Kerry is not President at least as much as those hating him for losing, I think he quickly made the only reasonable decision.

I think the party was incredibly lucky to have a candidate like Kerry last year. He nearly won in spite of the Democratic vote being suppressed, the MSM favoring Bush - even as much of print media endorsed Kerry, Kerry's own church in some parts of the country equating a vote for him to a sin, and the country being emotionally abused by the administration's terror warnings that occurred every time Kerry's numbers increased. Then after seeing victory turn to defeat, he gracefully conceded and simultaneously reached out to supporters to continue the fight.

It amazes me that DU can not see the strength of character that his actions show. He is fighting for our values, exposing the administration's hypocrisies in his Senate speeches. I wonder if any Bush supporters notice that Kerry, after losing and returning to a Senate where even small victories are few, still projects a more distinguished, Presidential image than Bush. He also seems to be able to enjoy the other parts of his life - and it is great to hear that he got to follow Armstrong on the last day of Tour de France, or that he was cheered at the Boston Marathon and at the Springsteen concert. He obviously still wants to be President, but somehow, it seems that if that doesn't happen he won't let it ruin his life.

It is interesting that Gore (who now says he's not interested in being a politician) is suddenly a DU favorite. Historically, he was way less liberal than Kerry. They like that he fought in 2000, while Kerry didn't. (So there were about 356 votes different at one point rather than 118,000+ - what do numbers mean?) They ignore that Gore then disappeared - for 18 months, while Kerry immediately returned to fight. I realize Gore had no position to return to - but he could have been a very powerful voice as a shadow President. So, maybe in a few years they'll see that Kerry did what he could.
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Island Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Excellent post Karynnj !
Edited on Mon Aug-01-05 07:01 PM by Island Blue
:applause: For now I've decided to try to stay away from any post in GD or GDP that look like their sole purpose is to bash John Kerry. I hope you are right, and that some of these people will see the light in a couple of years when the dust has settled and they've had a chance to mature a bit. I honestly think sometimes these folks post stuff just to get a reaction.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I think I need to stay there - leaving when it gets disheartening
Edited on Mon Aug-01-05 07:31 PM by karynnj
But it's a hard question - on one hand, the immediate, strong Kerry support infuriates some people and eggs on this nonsense. The question is can we win people over by responding with facts - that may depend on 2 things:
- absent new events, are there people interested enough politically to go to a DU board, without a clear opinion on Kerry?

I really don't know about this - there appear to be a few people who seem to have moved from neutral to defending Kerry from the worst slurs.

If we don't respond we leave the forum open to charges against Kerry.
Of the ones thrashing Kerry, I think the worst one is one who claims she is from MA, supported him for years, who claims he let her down and she now hates him with a passion. She seems the worst as she often says they too "fell" for his words, but recommends against it.

- as it is only 2005, is the bandwagon effect possible or even useful?

The huge effort of Bill Clinton and the media to label Hillary as the inevitable choice suggests they thing that efforts now are worthwhile. So, on the off chance I influence someone to at least realize he's a good Democratic Senator, I've done something. (One thing I realize I need to watch is to not critisize other candidates other than for specific actions.)
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Island Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. That's a good question, can we influence folks
who may be on the fence regarding Kerry? I guess that's surely possible, but I think right now there is just a whole lot of illogical screaming going on over there. I'm just glad that most people who I know who voted for Kerry (but aren't quite as obsessed with politics as folks here at DU are), still like him and think he was a good candidate. I think most of them would vote for him again if given the chance.

As far as Hillary, I'd support her if she was our ultimate candidate, but I don't think she's the inevitable choice and I don't think she can win. Surely there is someone in this country not named Bush or Clinton who would like to be President. Hey, I know Someone - John Kerry!
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. It depends what could be proven.
It was fairly obvious that a simple recount would not change the results. The difference in votes was too important. This was not Florida and its 300 votes.

However, if there was a way to prove that the voting machines had been rigged one way or another, it could have made a huge difference.

This said, there was no way Kerry could contest the election without proof. This would have been totally irresponsible. I hope they continue to look for a whistleblower (IMO the only way to prove the machines were rigged), because anything else is nearly impossible to prove.
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
4. Raw Story today:
Edited on Mon Aug-01-05 11:55 AM by whometense
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. Bush appoints Bolton and its all John Kerry's Fault
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Is there anything bad, that's not Kerry's fault?
Did he cause last week's heat wave because he didn't stop Bush's environmental dictates? He must be pretty powerful if he had the ability to stop all these bad things single handedly.



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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
11. Somnebody started a thread Kerry vs Clark
No surprise for the result. But somebody brought back the "social climber" issue as relevant. I cant believe how some people are full of it.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
12. Did anyone see this thread?
Edited on Mon Aug-01-05 08:51 PM by politicasista
It's about the NYT holding the key to Kerry winning Ohio. Somebody mentioned how Kerry didn't have a clue or didn't care about the fraud. :boring:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1974460
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