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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 06:39 AM
Original message
Be ready for trouble - read this article by the herald about Kerry
Edited on Tue Sep-27-05 06:55 AM by Mass
and Iraq.

http://news.bostonherald.com/international/view.bg?articleid=104361

And sadly, this is the only report by the Herald except for an editorial blasting Kerry as a angry democrat, and it did not even made the Globe.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. If you take away the Herald filter, it's not bad
Edited on Tue Sep-27-05 07:14 AM by TayTay
"There is some schedule showing what you (need) to do to get Iraqis standing up and defending themselves which is now suddenly beginning to happen, so there are some signs of progress," Kerry said during a 30-minute speech at the Park Plaza Hotel. "The only way we're going to be successful there – and ultimately, success is going to have to be somewhat redefined – is to create sufficient stability to get the troops home."

He later added while speaking to reporters: "The Iraqi forces are improving somewhat. Whether it's enough to hold the line is obviously a very serious question."

While acknowledging gains, Kerry called the war "deeply troubled" and said he is working on a timetable for a troop pullout.

"I want us to be successful. We all in America want it. Our troops are doing an incredible job. They deserve better choices in support of them," he said.

Kerry's comments were criticized as political posturing by Bill Dobbs of the anti-war group United for Justice and Peace.

"There's a real surge in opposition to the war but on the other hand as we get into the (2008 presidential) election, the Democrats will be trying to get off scot-free and pretend they're opposing the war when they're letting it go on, costing lives," Dobbs said.


I want to see the whole speech. The Iraqis, under Bush are starting to take over whole swaths of the country that the US cannot hold without whole-scale military offenses. (This is making things worse in Iraq. Of course the US has the firepower to blow the country away, but that won't win the peace.)

Kerry said: He is working on a timetable to withdraw. This is excellent.
The Troops are doing a good job, but without support. (It is extremely important that Bush's failure not be the failure of the US troops. This is what happened in Vietnam, as Mr. Kerry well knows, and it must not happen again. We support our troops, we don't support those who are sending them into this ill-defined war.)

The UPJ guy could have been responding to a Herald quote. I will wait and see what Kerry actually says. But I am actually more hopeful having read this. Of course the Editorial blows, but, what do you want, it's the Herald.

Edit: Oh, and they had an awesome pic. Really, really nice. I can't upload, since I am at work, but that's a nice pic.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. What he is saying is consistent with what he has been saying since
last year, yet evolving with the situation, and it is good news.

But of course, the Herald had to take the only non-negative sentence in the speech and make that his title. Be sure the LW freepers are going to use that without any reference to the context.

As the UPJ guy, I think he is consistent with his position. Kerry is not proposing a total withdrawal of the troops here and now. He does not like that.

(the problem with Kerry releasing his prepared remarks and not a tape of his speeches is that we will never know what he actually said. He tends to improvize so much that sometimes the speech is totally different from the text given to the reporters).
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. The devil is always in the details.
Edited on Tue Sep-27-05 08:03 AM by TayTay
Sen. Feingold called for a troop pullout by Dec. 2006. To the best of my knowledge, he did not say how we are to achieve that goal. It is dishonest and immoral to suddenly just pull the troops out. (The Juan Cole article I mentioned yesterday rested on a number of written articles at his site that mention ground troop withdrawal and leaving in a substantial number of air support facilities to aid in averting the worst of a civil war and, maybe, keeping Al Sistani alive. If Al Sistani is assassinated by a Sunni, OMG, we will have the never-ending war that will engulf the entire region for a decade.)

Sen. Kerry, brave man that he is, is about to meet the devil head on and supply the infamous details. This will get him in trouble. (The more specific you get, the more people can criticize you. That's just the way things are.) I am betting that he has made adjustments to his views. (The country did have elections, but they may have been rigged by the US, per Sy Hersh. That has to be taken into account. The Iraqi Constitution is not going to be approved by the Sunnis. That is real bad. And the Constitution itself does not guarantee minority rights or the rights of women. This is really bad. All this happened after Kerry's last trip to Iraq in Jan. I expect a revision to stay in line with reality.)
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. It is lovely.


Interesting discussion, but I haven't had enough coffee yet to add anything intelligent.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. That's one of the best pictures I've seen
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. That pic is a keeper!
Ooooh - he looks so handsome!
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JanusAscending Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. YOWWZZA !!
He's got a little bit of that Elvis lip curl goin on there! And Tay Tay,......I needed a cold shower after that horiscope you came up with! Oh, to be Teresa! I can dream can't I?:9 DC
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
3. I see what you mean
Dobbs and Sheehan and others saying leave now will not accept anything less. But, no politician, even Feingold is in agreement with them, but that quote will be all other DU. The change in Kerry's position is he is talking about a withdrawal time frame - which sounds like he is moving to wards a more imminent exit than before.

I think the comments are very thoughtful and well reasoned - and this is coming only from the quotes in the Boston Herald. In some cases, it how you parse it - the Iraqi troops are getting better (which after 2 + years you would hope so), but not quickly enough.

Part of what makes Kerry a statesman is that he is fair rather than just negative. He has to be to effectively work with reasonable people on the other side. I will be interested in hearing his Iraq speech - oddly, as Bush is so damaged, if Kerry suggests a plan that balances our need to get out of a nightmare and the need to leave the least chaos as possible, some Republicans may, without crediting Kerry, propose a very similar idea. Just like the SBA plan was mostly Kerry, but is called Snowe, if something gets us out faster and better is called Lugar or even Hagel (who could run on it), it would be worth it.

It seems ironic that they write this story with typical solid, thoughtful Kerry quotes, where he is taking pains to give Bush the benefit of the doubt, while pointing out obvious deficiencies on the same day as an editorial blasting him as an angry Democrat. The juxtaposition is stunning and rather effectively undercuts the editorial. There are reasons for Kerry (and everyone else) to be angry, but as in the article, after expressing his anger eloquently, he returns to logic, intellect, and proposed solutions.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. yes, this is the difference
between a good senator (Feingold) and an excellent one (Kerry). He will call the administration on their failings, but then offer a solution. Feingold's just calling for a withdrawal date was not enough(although maybe he said more and it wasn't reported).

If Kerry steps up, once again, with a plan, maybe NOW people will be ready to hear it. Now that the WH, for once, has been exposed by the media. Kerry has a window of opportunity now (I think he referred to in at Brown) that won't necessarily last. DU lefties are exulting in Bushco's PR troubles, but I think it is too soon to break open the champagne. The one thing they know how to do is spin, so I wouldn't take anything for granted. I think Kerry knows this and is trying to make good use of this period.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Speaking of Feingold, I received a "survey" from him today
Tell ne if you find this dishonest:

It's from the Feingold Senate Committee (without saying that he is next up for election in the Senate in 2010.)
The basic message at the top is "Yes, Russ, I'm with you. I support your progresiv agenda for America - and your efforts to defend our country from terrorist attacks while still protecting our constitutional freedoms and civil liberties. (Call for donations)

One of the questions is going to war in Iraq. where he says "I asked some tough questions surrounding the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 and ultimately concluded that it was a costly distraction from the real war on terror. I still believe that today. I didn't think President Bush MADE A CLEAR OR PERSUASIVE CASE TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE FOR GOING TO WAR. Out troops have responded brilliantly, but the architechs of the war in the Bush administration have failed us. Ihave proposed a target date for bringing US forces home from Iraq - December 31,2006. I want to jump start the discussion of when this ends in the hope that we can place our Iraq policy in the context of a lobal effort against terrorism, rather than letting it dominate our security strategy and drain vital security resources for an unlimited amount of time.

----------
My thoughts were: do Senators initially get Presidential funds in their Senate accounts and if so, do they make it clear they are exploring a Presidential bid? I found the Iraq write up disgusting - the IWR was not a vote for war per both Bush and Powell. Did he have any alternative plan to get the inspectors in? Does he really think there would be no war if the resolution (note resolution, not a declaration of war) failed. Mentioning he voted against IWR to get money (or support) is fine, mischaracterizing it is wrong. Am I being overly sensitive?
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. he is playing that vote to the hilt
The other one is that he voted against the Patriot Act. He's said this stuff before, in his 2004 bid for re-election. And he is muddying that vote and making use of the mis-perception that it was some sort of war declaration--which I agree it was not.

Don't worry about Russ needing campaign funds--he's a very popular guy here and won re-election by a large margin--around 72%. And I do think, by the way, that he is barking up the wrong tree on his idea to run for president. Ok, I'm comparing him to Kerry--but he isn't that dynamic a speaker. Nice enough guy, works hard, goes to every county for a town hall meeting every year--but I can't see him getting very far as a presidential candidate. Veep maybe.

So he voted against the Patriot Act and the IWR. In both cases Kerry voted for them, but not how they were implemented. I see Ashcroft and Bush as the problems, not the legislation.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #11
23. From his MTP appearance,
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 07:12 AM by karynnj
what Feingold asked for is even less dramatic. At least from my interpretation of what he proposed, he wants a date (Dec, 2006) set as a target date for withdrawal, although he says it should not occur unless some political milestones are achieved. He said, that in the past setting a goal for an election or the turn over of sovereignty has caused people to work very hard to meet that date.
Sounds to me like a version of the old management theory of the ealy 90s - Management by objectives, where at the beginning of the year we set objectives and at the end of the year were evaluated by how well we met them.

MTP Transcript:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8926876/

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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Unfortunately, this is typical of some democrats
What he has been saying on some LW media is a lot less ambiguous than what he has been saying on MSM, as if he is adapting his message to the person he speaks to.

In addition, I find surprising that some people who have been complaining all along that Kerry was boring and long-winded would consider Feingold. As much as I like him, he (and Hillary) are a lot more boring than Kerry.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Adapting his message seems so dangerous
in today's world where a simple google can bring up all the atatements. Kerry was hurt by the flip flop charge when he really was pretty consistent on issues, changing only over time or because of changes in circumstances.

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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
7. The Globe had an AP story yesterday...
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Exactly my point - they have an AP story
If our reporters cant even report on OUR senators talking in OUR state, there is a problem.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Mass, the Globe has concluded that Kerry is not news
and, in fact, views him as yesterday's news. This will last until something happens and it isn't that way any more. That's the Globe. Kennedy is now the Dean of the Mass Congressional delegation. Sen. Kerry is 'the other MA Senator' and the Globe is going to treat him that way for the forseeable future.

The Globe has made up their mind that Kerry is NOT news, unless he strips naked and jumps in the Charles in the middle of February with a bottle in one hand and young woman on his other arm. That's the Globe for ya. They will nitpick him to death and part of me says it's really a good thing that the Senator doesn't engage in open warfare with them.
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. The interesting thing about that AP story
is that it was written by none other than former Globe staff writer and Kerry abuser Glen Johnson: http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh021303.shtml
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
12. Politically adventagous
Even thought the blogosphere will object to Kerry, politically he is better off not being seen as one of the more extremists on Iraq. As we saw after Vietnam, the voting public does not go for peace protestors, even when they are right. We also saw how Kerry gained more support than Dean in the primaries, including from opponents of the war.

If Kerry had the power to get us out now, it would be one thing. As we will remain in Iraq regardless of what Kerry does, I'm satisfied with him pushing for a time table to get out. That's far preferable to what appears like an indefinate quagmire from Bush.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. The American Prospect weighs in on this
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 12:21 AM by ginnyinWI
in the Oct '05 issue. They say it is smart politics for Dems to keep demanding that the administration come up with a set of metrics for success in Iraq--that they could then be measured by.

But they don't really need a specific policy for withdrawal as such, because it wouldn't change any facts on the ground anyway, coming from the minority party, and they risk alienating one portion of the Dem contingent or other, depending on what they say. This may be why some politicians on the right accuse Dems of not having a "plan", trying to goad them into a corner.

That said, I sense a real leadership vacuum opening up now that the "emperor has no clothes" (and finally people are seeing it), and Kerry has a chance to step up and remind people what they missed. Too bad his speeches won't get first-hand TV coverage. Next best thing is pundit-chatter and maybe some good coverage in print.

here's the beginning of the article if you want to read it:
http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewPrint&articleId=10294

last four PP:
The only substantive way that party leaders challenge the White House is to demand that the administration publish a set of metrics for success that would be subject to public scrutiny. This, again, is smart politics, assuming the mission in Iraq is going south, as it would reveal the administration’s failures; similarly, refusal to publish such criteria would undercut the official line that all is well. As policy, however, it’s hard to see how this could make a difference: While metrics could help make this clearer to the public, they can’t change the facts on the ground.

In an August 24 op-ed, Gary Hart challenged directly, accusing Democrats of lacking the “courage” to call for withdrawal. And he’s right: Opposition to withdrawal seems overwhelmingly political. Wesley Clark, who as a war opponent is seen by many hawks as an effective spokesman against a timetable, has warned in the pages of The Washington Post and in public speeches that we must “change the course” in Iraq “before it’s too late.” I asked Clark when we might know that the window of opportunity had closed, and he dodged, saying only, “We’re still far from that point.” Biden, when asked for a response to Hart on the August 28 edition of This Week, declined to do so in any meaningful way, offering instead the bizarre reply that “for me to defend myself against Gary Hart is kind of ludicrous to begin with. I kind of resent it, to tell the truth.”

But despite the careful efforts at political positioning and the blows President Bush has taken on the Iraq issue, Democrats of all stripes face a painful political problem of their own. Most polls have support for withdrawal in the near future in the low 40s. That’s not nearly enough for an anti-war campaign to win. At the same time, those numbers suggest that an overwhelming majority of actual Democratic voters want to end the war soon. It’s hard to imagine Democratic politicians credibly positioning themselves as the leaders of a party of better war management as long as it’s clear that, in office, they’d be beholden to a deeply anti-war base. Moreover, there’s reason to think that even if a majority of Americans do come to favor abandoning the war effort, advocating withdrawal would be a poor political strategy. Defeatism, as the 1972 election showed, is not a very appealing political product, even in the context of a deeply unpopular war.

More convincing anti-war arguments, centered on the case that withdrawal could be a positive contribution to Iraq’s stability, might do the trick, but bucking majority opinion is something politicians are always loath to do. Thus, it’s no surprise that many Democrats seem to feel that caution is the better part of valor on this issue, and that the best thing to do is to say as little as possible. Iraq, after all, is a mess of the president’s creation, not theirs, and no honest policy proposal can be as appealing as the fantasy universe of Bush’s speeches. Poking the occasional hole in that bubble and then lying low while hoping the administration implodes seems to make sense, though that strategy risks repeating the debacle of 2002, when the politics of evasion went down to massive defeat. Under the circumstances, though, it might be best to simply abandon the quest for party unity and to watch the midterms closely. The fortunes of the hawks and doves in those elections should help guide the Democrat platform as they head into 2008.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
16. I didn't think this article was bad at all!
The fact that Kerry is publicly working on a withdrawal strategy from
Iraq puts him way ahead of anybody else, D or R!

Kerry has been getting blasted lately from the OpEds about how he only knows how to criticize bsh. That's another reason why I like this article. Kerry is finding the positives, and then saying what more needs to be done. That is a very effective technique we use at work to shape peoples behavior. By saying something positive, you are not putting people on the defensive, and then they are more open to what you have to say.

I imagine that the blogs will blast him for this, they all want to pull out right this minute. But that would be a huge mistake. Kerry has it right. We need to do #1,#2,#3 and then leave, but first we need to define what 1,2,and 3 are.

Kerry is awesome, and him taking a role in this just further proves to me that he is MY president!
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I am happy to see that Kerry is working on a plan for withdrawal.
I was just bothered by the title. There is nothing positive to be seen in Iraq right now, and it is clear that Kerry thinks so as well. In fact, I hope he is right there is something that can be done to withdraw in the best situation possible, but I am not that optimistic and I hope that his timeframe will include dates.

The title is meant to be problem, and coming from the Herald, no surprise there.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
18. It's that ole 'flip-flop' thing they love to use against him.
boring....

As I said in my other post, the fact that he is even working on an exit strategy puts him ahead, way ahead of the rest;)
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I hae varied expectation
Edited on Tue Sep-27-05 09:23 PM by TayTay
One of the things that really, really annoyed me last year was how much Kerry was grilled on Iraq. It wasn't his war. He didn't start it, he certainly wouldn't have gone in based on faulty and fixed info and he certainly wouldn't have allowed the kind of arrogance and incompetence that Rumsfeld has displayed since this whole thing began. It wasn't his war. That vote got blown way out of proportion and became a, "You're just like *' thing was was untrue and unfair. The stupid press. The Rovian maneuver to hang the war around Kerry's neck instead of *'s should have failed, but the press fell for it.

That said, what I want from Sen. Kerry is to move the conversation forward. It is unfair and unrealistic to expect him to come up with the 'solution' to Iraq and I don't want to play that game. What I want is a clarification of the issue, a list of options or possible options and a list of things that the US can realistically do that will begin to draw down troops. I think John Kerry is one of the most knowledgeable Foreign Policy people in the Congress. I want to see a rational and realistic evaluation of where we are, what we can hope to accomplish and some ideas for getting out. I am NOT looking for a magic solution, cuz one doesn't exist. (If it was easy to get out of Iraq, That Friggin Idiot would have done it already.)

I want the troops out as soon as reasonably possible. (And, sigh, I am still thinking that Bush is going to pull a fast one and do a variation of the old, 'Declare victory and come home' thing. I do not trust the Bush Admin at all and this would be the sort of bail-out that the Rethugs would do just to CYA.)
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-27-05 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. This is what I love about Kerry tho.,
He knows there is a problem, he knows that bsh has no exit plan (how many times did Kerry say that last year!!), he knows that things are getting worse, and no one is doing anything about it. So he is using his expertise, and his brains, and working on a solution.

I really think Kerry is doing this because he cares about this country, he sees the anti-war movement growing, and he cares about the people that this war is effecting. And something has to be done. Or we will be there for many more years, with no results, and more in debt to China. I don't think he is doing this for political reasons (although it won't hurt) but you can be sure that the media will play it that way.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
26. Unfortunately, it seems I was right about this article
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 07:46 AM by Mass
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
27. Someone over at Kos was using that for the flip flop meme
Oh, excuse me "flippity flop" to be exact.

Isn't that just PRECIOUS?

:puke:

And someone else said he sounded like Nixon and "Vietnamization".

I went over there to post about him being on Cindy's Hall of Fame.

It is alittle weird that he sounds like he's turning anti-war when you read Cindy's comments, but then like he sees progress when you look at this article. I wish I could see the transcript in full. You KNOW the Herald pulled stuff out of context.

And I have to say, I just love it when folks decide that the Herald is a worthy newspaper to get one's liberal news. Oh yes, they're just a bastion of progressive thought, ain't they.

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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. They're probably annoyed that Cindy put Kerry in the hall of Fame
and apparently wasn't sufficiently impressed by Dean to suit Kos
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kerrygoddess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
29. My response to Arianna's spin on this and the Bubble
“Forgive Me While I Tear My Hair Out”
http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?p=713
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Your response is wonderful
I can't understand what game she thinks she is playing. I agree with you that we need to be trying to unite to stregthen our own party and work to regain some power.

I really don't know why she doesn't comment on the things Kerry is doing that genuinely help people - through legislation, supporting candidates and making a series of brilliant speeches. Rather than comment on any of these substanitive things, she talks of trivia. Even watching the 4 short clips, Rosenbaum becomes so totally unlikable that no one who didn't already agree would even listen to him. (finger nails on a chalk board). Then quoting the title of a Boston Herald article whose own text belies the title is truely strange, when he says he will soon make a speech on Iraq. What's the point.

Your blog is great.
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