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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-22-06 11:12 PM
Original message
My GOD the trolls are out in force tonight
I think they forgot to spray for pests in GDP, because there are roaches coming out of every crevice.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-22-06 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's Kerry night.
Edited on Wed Mar-22-06 11:34 PM by ProSense
The frame: Ah, pardon me... Oh, excuse me... might anyone know the answer to my most innocent question* about Senator Kerry?


*Question need not be legitimate.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-22-06 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. LOL!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :hi:
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-22-06 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. I couldn't help but notice the attacks also.
I wonder why tonight when he hasn't even been in the news. I doubt this is all being generated by Feingold supporters. I do however remember a Kos posting that mis characterized Kerry's censure vote on President Clinton.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-22-06 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I don't know, but I'm really getting sick of Feingold threads.
He's the flavor of the week apparently. :eyes:
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-22-06 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. OMG, you're from Wisconsin! Are you saying you DON'T worship at his feet?
:eyes:

Yeah, it's getting pretty inane.

"FEINGOLD FOR SUPREME GALACTIC EMPEROR!!!!1"
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Did you see him on the Daily Show?
What did you think?

I stick by my original impression: very smart, has integrity. A tad humorless (though I'd be willing to take that back if proved otherwise.)

He's a very serious person - in my book, that's a good thing. But when it comes to charisma - can't hold a candle to JK. It's funny to me that the lefty freepers are always talking about JK's dearth of charisma, but then they turn around and promote the hell out of plenty of others (Feingold and Dean to name two) who don't have a tenth of what JK has.
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fedupinBushcountry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. My question
How come the Daily Show didn't have Kerry on during the Alito filibuster?

Its clear to me all Feingold wants is an apology, let him off the hook for breaking the law. Sorry, but I'm not buying it. Also, he did not stand up for the Democrats, he let the cowering etc., go by and instead gave a 2004 answer, what is that suppose to mean? Am I missing something ?
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. I was thinking about that myself. Kerry didn't receive nearly the
worship support Feingold has for doing something I don't really think was necessary. Kerry was ridiculed and laughed at for trying to win a filibuster on a Supreme Court noni nee with the potential to erode our rights and further invade our privacy. Not to mention civil rights and minority issues. It was suggested that he was either doing this for political gain or he owed it to us and it was expected. It went the same way on talk shows. John Stewart never even mentioned it. I am actually mad that Feingold appeared on the show. IMO, he was given the opportunity to appear simply because he got nasty with the other Dem's who would not support him on this and said the magic words, Dem's need to grow a backbone. Like that simplistic approach will resolve all of our problems and make Republicans and Democrats alike swarm to us and vote out the Republicans.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #10
22. At least, he speaks out on issues he cares.
It may not be the issues I care, but he does. There is something lame in staying silent when our country sinks, or in making tantrum as Reid does. The Democrats should be in arms, explaining what happens.

Read Kerry's Katrina speech. I want him to do that again and again and again. Be out there. Speak on how this administration is screwing us on all these issues. It is the right message and if he keeps repeating it, may be the media will pick it and if they dont, we will have ground to complain.

I am outraged by the silence of Democrats on Bush's Iraq speeches. They should be out there making press conferences on press conferences on that. Where are they?
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #22
35. Putting this Feingold issue aside, I have to agree with you on the
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 09:26 AM by wisteria
silence of the Democrats on Bush's speeches. I hate to think this, but it seems as if the DLC is calling all the shots now. We have majority silence,only H. Reid is speaking out against the President,(very ineffectively I will add) Hillary covering the Ports Security issue and now illegal immigration. Boxer did a few appearances on the Ports, but only after some revelations came out about Pres. Clinton given Dubai some advice which contradicted Hillary's position. It appears so out of character for Kerry not to even release a statement commenting on the speeches. This has been his pattern for a while. I wonder if Reid and the DLC are insisting that some of the more outspoken members of the Senate stay quite for the time being.
I want to know when Kerry gets his chance to lead and gets the backing of the Senate. He isn't allowed to lead on the Iraqi War, he remained questionably silent, making only a few comments, during the Ports/Security issues. Yet, we all know he has been very vocal in the past on port security. I want to hear what he has to say on these issues and more, I am tired of Biden's perennial appearances on the talk shows and Senator Clinton being given leadership roles that should be filled by more long term and more experienced Senators. I get the impression that it is well understood Senator Clinton could never run as President with a campaign focused on defense and dead on war issues, so the party isn't tackling these issues head on and instead are working around them. I'm sure some will disagree with me and defend Senator Clinton and the party's maneuvering, but this is what I think may be going on right now and I don't like it. The Clinton's still have way to much say in our party's direction.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #35
43. Kerry doesn't need permission to speak
From From's statements, the party does not support him, so he can't lose their support - he has never had it (at least since Nov 2004). I assume that he will speak more on Iraq - he did comment on Imus. On the ports issue, he was one of the first who commented. Unlike those who were more visible - his critisism was both intense in condemning how poor the Bush's administration's oversight was and moderate in terms of not crossing the line and falling into Rove like demonization of Arabs. This won't win DU points, but it is Presidential, rational and good policy.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. I didn't mean to imply that he needed permission, just that he may
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 11:46 AM by wisteria
have been asked to keep a low profile for a while, and Senator Kerry was complying with the request for the sake of the party. I am aware that From does not support him, I don't think he really ever did support Kerry,even in 2004.I alway got the impression they were saving themselves for another race at another time. I had forgotten about his take on the ports deal. His points however were quickly dismissed by the White House and nothing was ever brought up again. I still stand by my statement that his rebuttals and observations have recently become less and less.
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. I have no inside info
but it wouldn't surprise me if JK was keeping his powder dry.

He's never, EVER been the type of politician who is front and center 24/7 (in spite of that ridiculous "Liveshot" label). He waits till he has all the facts, and then he speaks. When he does, it's always worth waiting for. Always. It's one of the things I love most about him, that he doesn't shoot his mouth off just to be on camera or just to be "in the lead". He's perfectly willing to sign on to someone else's bill or proposal if he believes in it.

I believe his unwillingness to yammer on command has been a source of tension between JK and his advisors forever, but I love and honor him for it.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Thanks for putting this in to perspective for me. I hadn't given
thought to his strategy in all of this.
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. He's endlessly fascinating to me
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 12:39 PM by whometense
because he doesn't do things by the political book.

One thing I do know about him is that he really does like to fly under the radar. Just because he's not out front making news, that doesn't mean he's not actively working. Look at his visit to Puerto Rico this week. Partially a vacation, sure, but what was that about, really? You (and I) just don't know. And complaining about not knowing (as a lot of people who work for him know) can be utterly useless - he tells when he's ready, and he goes his own way.

Anyone who expects orthodoxy from him is doomed to disappointment. ;-)
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. that's what I like about him too
He doesn't just follow the crowd, but listens to his own instincts--and very often they turn out to be better, when all is said and done. For example, if Feingold is trying to energize the lefties for 2008--he's premature. Maybe he's doing it out of convictions--that's always a possiblitiy, because I believe he's sincere. But Kerry has more political smarts and maybe he is keeping his powder dry for something likely to do more good. I guess I just trust he knows what he's doing.

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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. interesting stuff! n/t
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #10
23. There was likely at most one day when Kerry physically could
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 08:26 AM by karynnj
have gone on the show. Kerry and Kennedy started the effort at a Wednesday at the Democratic conference. Kerry left for Davos later that afternoon and came back on Friday (when he gave his second Alito speech). The vote was on Monday.

The Daily show (I think) is Monday - Friday. The only day even remotely possible was Friday. I assume after his speech, Kerry was likely lobbying Senators to vote for it. To be on the Daily Show, he would have had to fly to NYC to be on that night's show. A huge risk is that it would end up a huge present to the Republicans - they were already implying that Kerry was off skiing rather than doing his work in the Senate.

I do think that after it was over, Kerry could have gone on - especially as they could have joked about the contrast between what he was doing (attending a serious economics conference) vs what McClellan suggested (skiing). He could have then concisely explained the problem with Alito - though that would have to be deadly serious.

If he went on now - the utter aburdity of Sherwood sueing Kerry - might suit Steward's sense of humor, but it might be a problem as it's still open.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. There is no show on Friday, so he could not have been there.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #23
36. To my knowledge, Stewart never even mentioned it on the show.
it was as if he too, was playing it like a PR stunt by Kerry.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. Not sure - if he thought it a PR ploy
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 10:59 AM by karynnj
he likely would have gone with the ski slope jokes. It would have been easy - showing Tay's favorite Kerry ski boarding photo and saying that Kerry called in from the slopes. then projecting other calls while windsurfing, while biking etc.

That he didn't join the crowd in making this a joke - he likely took it for what it was.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. I'm not either
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 03:31 AM by ProSense
He still didn't direct his attacks at the Republicans and he still implies that the Democrats are afraid to stand up to Bush.

I don't care how many times people say principled and serious, when I look at the vote against the Pat Act and his vote for Roberts and then against Alito, I say BS.

Feingold's reason

September 29, 2005

Mr. FEINGOLD. Mr. President, I will vote in favor of the nomination of Judge John Roberts to be the Chief Justice of the United States. This has not been an easy decision, but I believe it is the correct one. Judge Roberts' impeccable legal credentials, his reputation and record as a fair-minded person, and his commitment to modesty and respect for precedent have persuaded me that he will not bring an ideological agenda to the position of Chief Justice of the United States and that he should be confirmed.

I have often noted that the scrutiny that I will apply to a President's nominee to the Supreme Court is the highest of any nomination and that the scrutiny to be applied to the position of Chief Justice must be the very highest. I have voted for executive branch appointments, and even for court of appeals nominees, whom I would not necessarily vote to put on the Supreme Court.

Furthermore, because the Supreme Court, alone among our courts, has the power to revisit and reverse its precedents, I believe that anyone who sits on that Court must not have a pre-set agenda to reverse precedents with which he or she disagrees and must recognize and appreciate the awesome power and responsibility of the Court to do justice when other branches of Government infringe on or ignore the freedoms and rights of all citizens.



How does one who is so adamant about protecting civil rights come to this conclusion?


Robert's recent ruling:

Roberts Dissent Reveals Strain Beneath Court's Placid Surface

By LINDA GREENHOUSE
Published: March 23, 2006
WASHINGTON, March 22 — A Supreme Court decision on Wednesday in an uncelebrated criminal case did more than resolve a dispute over whether the police can search a home without a warrant when one occupant gives consent but another objects.

Snip...

Writing for the majority, Justice David H. Souter said the search was unreasonable, given the vocal objection of the husband, Scott Randolph. True, Justice Souter said, the court had long permitted one party to give consent to a search of shared premises under what is known as the "co-occupant consent rule." But he said that rule should be limited to the context in which it was first applied, the absence of the person who later objected.

Snip...

Justices John Paul Stevens, Anthony M. Kennedy and Ruth Bader Ginsburg joined the majority opinion, as did Justice Stephen G. Breyer, who explained himself in a concurring opinion notable for its ambivalent tone. Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr. did not vote, as he was not a member of the court when the case was argued.

The dissenters, in addition to Chief Justice Roberts, were Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas. In his opinion, the chief justice took aim at the majority's description of social custom, as well as its reliance on that description to reshape "a great deal of established Fourth Amendment law."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/23/politics/23scotus.htm





Kerry's statement:


“I can’t in good conscience vote to confirm Judge Roberts to a lifetime leading our third and co-equal branch of government when his confirmation hearings contained no genuine legal engagement, no real exchange of information, and no substantive discussion. The confirmation exercise has become little more than an empty shell. I cannot vote to confirm someone to lead the very branch of government responsible for ensuring equal opportunity and justice when he refuses to say where he stands on things as fundamental as how he would interpret our Constitution.

“The White House’s refusal to release documents presented a significant obstacle to getting the facts, but the biggest roadblock has been Judge Roberts himself. He has evaded serious and legitimate questions and forced the Senate to exercise its Constitutional responsibility of advice and consent virtually in the dark.

“What little we do know about Judge Roberts’ record gives me real concern. We need a Chief Justice who respects our Constitution and also considers the real-life implications of his decisions. Whether it’s voting rights, Title IX, affirmative action, the Geneva Conventions or choice, Judge Roberts has consistently worked to put such high legal hurdles in place that they are virtually impossible for even the most worthy cases to overcome. America deserves a Chief Justice who will ensure that every single one of us – man or woman, rich or poor, black or white – will be treated with dignity, respect and fairness under the law.”

# # #


Boxer and Kennedy raised the same concerns.


When Feingold said principle (a president should get his nominees) leads to him to vote for Bush nominees, including Gale Norton, that was fine. Then, I believe, he voted against Rice(?). The Roberts vote just doesn't hold up.
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benny05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. For someone unaccustomed to Stewart's Style
Feingold was fine. At least he smiled when the rest of us caught the jokes too.

More experienced politicans in the national arena are more used to humor and what to do with it.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. You should see some of his campaign ads
He has one hell of an ad agency that does kill work for him. His earliest ads were quite humorous. He used to use his hand as a map of Wisconsin.

I'd call him earnest, and something of a maverick. I was honored to campaign for him and Kerry in 2004. We were a combined campaign in Milwaukee. Some of the Republicans I phonebanked voted Bush/Feingold that year. We do love our mavericks here in purple Wisconsin.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. it's just who he is
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 02:10 AM by JI7
i don't have a problem with his style. in fact i find it appealing in a way. i like people who are different.

i'm not talking about issues or anything here but rather just the style.

Littleclarkie, have you ever met Feingold ? what would you ask or talk to him about if you did ?

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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Not yet. Came close, though. He was supposed to be at a rally
that I was helping to set up for. But the Senate ran late, and they were still there voting on stuff on that Saturday. It was said that Feingold will never miss a vote if he can help it, and so he tele-conferenced us instead. Everyone was there to see Obama anyway. He was the rockstar that day.

I dunno what I'd ask. I tend to get star struck in those instances. I'd have been freaking out around Kerry, I know. Woulda been quiet as a church mouse.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
48. I haven't met him either
But I intend to next time I get the chance. I did have a sticker on my car--does that count? And yes, the Kerry and Feingold campaigns were combined. We'd hand out a leaflet for each together, etc. and phonebank for both.

I'd be interested to see whether he's different charisma-wise than he appears on tv--because I've seen that Kerry's is greater in personal appearances. Maybe it't the same with Feingold.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. i just saw it, thought he did well overall
kept on point. pretty well for a serious guy doing an interview with a host whose job is to add comedy into it.

it would be interesting to see how it would have been if he was in studio. sometimes the satellite throws people off.

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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. Not to mention Gore
who is also incredibly serious and a decent person, but not the least bit charismatic in either either his 2000 persona or his current angry man personal.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Yes, but they are my number 2 and 3 men
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 08:10 AM by Mass
because, even if they dont have the charisma, they have found a way to have their message go through, and this is largely because they are less cautious.

I am sorry, it is hard to me to understand why, if Kerry supports censure (and I believe he does), he did not make a statement on the issue. It is definitively a disappointement. I admire him a lot, but I wished sometimes, he was more spontaneous, and largely because he is a lot better when he is spontaneous.

Take the Katrina speech. It was one of the best speeches I heard him gave, because he expressed really what he thought and expressed it strongly. He needs to do that more often.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Who among the Democrats have come out and made a statement?
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 08:29 AM by ProSense
Except for the two sponsors (Harkin made a public statement, Boxer did not), the other two or three made their positions known during interviews. And they made it clear that investigations must come before censure. In the interview last night, Feingold still is pushing censure before investigation.

No Democrat has called a press conference (totally ridiculous request), and other than Wyden's, posted on his website and critical of the timing, none have issued statements.


Compare this to the Alito filibuster, the call was to support it, not to issue statements. Frankly, I don't see the significance of this. I hope, in fact I believe, they will support it. The only reason I could see them objecting to is if it hampers efforts to push the Republicans toward serious investigations.

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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. If you need an answer, Leahy and Jeffords.
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 08:46 AM by Mass
but it is not my point and you know it.



If his staffers say he supports them, he should make clear he does or it creates more confusion there is already.


The last thing we need on this issue is another Circular Firing Squad Brigade, with some Feingold's supporters attacking whoever has not signed on as supporting Bush and supporters from other potential candidates attacking Feingold as grandstanding and not sincere.

I have issues with Feingold's methods that I have already expressed, but the best a leader can do, now that the damage is done, is to find a way to mend the fence and try to show some unity. This is what Durbin did the other day. He should be praised.

Shame on Lieberman, Bayh, and Dayton for doing exactly the opposite, and not very surprisingly, I would like to see Kerry as a leader on this.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Make fun?
I stated my opinion. Leahy and Jeffords support hearings before censure.


“Sen. Feingold says he intended his resolution to prompt congressional investigations into the president’s actions on these issues. Republican leaders so far have been reluctant to allow that,” said David Carle, a Leahy spokesman. “Sen. Leahy believes in first things first, and the first thing is Congress doing its oversight duty in investigating the Bush administration’s illegal domestic wiretapping.”

http://www.vermontguardian.com/dailies/032006/032006.shtml


Leahy is in a state where calls for impeachment are getting louder.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. And they were supportive of Feingold and Kerry should do the same thing
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 08:48 AM by Mass
If he does, what will you do? Say he is wrong?

(I changed my words before I read your post, but I dont think circular fire squads help here).
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Why would I say he's wrong?
My point is I accept the word out of his office. Everyone jumped on the "call Democrats cowards bandwagon unless they issue a statement" and, IMO, that was the wrong.


The RNC put out an ad yesterday, and so far I have not seen a response from the DNC. I was expecting them to counter.

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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. I think there is time for this statement
The Congress is in recess right now. These recesses are designed to give Sens. and Cong. time to go home and talk to people and see how their constituents feel about how things are going. The Senator will be back in the state tomorrow (or today for all I know.) I'm sure his offices haave been tracking the calls. He will get an update on how the calls are going and what his voters are saying.

I don't think we need to hurry on this one. I really don't. The press is going to bash the Dems as indecisive whether they are or not. This is unavoidable. Remember, during the Alito filibuster they lambasted the Dems who came out for a filibuster because they were 'tilting at windmills' and taking up a doomed for certain cause. They ridiculed Kerry & Kennedy for taking a strong stand and voting their principles, which is exactly what they are calling for when they ask Dems to 'stand up.' There is no up or down side in waiting the censure measure out and making an informed choice and an informed speech on same.

I don't really care what the media says. They are two-faced and they lie and distort for the sheer fun of it. I wouldn't pander to them just because they have pulled that mothy old 'Dems are in disarray' meme out of the closet. Who cares?
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. I hope the time will come soon, because at this point
while it is not a major issue, it is just adding on top of other issues I have.

The point is that I dont care about the media. I care about the people, and many people I have around me that are lifelong Democrats are having the same feeling: what the f*k are they waiting for? And these people are well-informed, not relying on the MSM for their information.

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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. The Senate is not in session.
The longer the issue stays out there, the longer it gets talked about. This is not necessarily a bad thing. The media was using this censure, initially, to bash the Dems. However, the polls revealed that the censure res is not nearly as unpopular as the Rethugs thought it would be.

Let it stay out there for a few more days. I just don't see the down side of this. I don't see what wrong with having citizens pressure their Sens or Reps to take action and giving this process time. (I think the same thing on the protest over a withdrawal time table for Iraq. Pressure never works in one quick motion. Pressure is a process. I want it to play out for a little while longer. There is a purpose to that.)
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. I guess I will take a break with DU, because, frankly, I cant understand
what is the relationship between my post and your answer?

A lot of people I know, who are not lefty freepers, are mad at the Democrats for their silence on many issues. This censure issue is not the most important, but it is the straw that can break the camel's back, because frustrations are high.

It has nothing to do with the Senate being in session or not. It has to do with Democratic leaders speaking out and they can do that whether the Senate is in session or not.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. But they have spoken out
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 10:02 AM by TayTay
Repeatedly and loudly on the issues. I called Sen. Kerry's office and was told he supports Sen. Feingold's censure Res. I don't really see the immediate need for a statement on that. I think there is time to consider this.

The debate itself is, to an extent, an articial one. It is a media and web driven thing that demands that actions be taken at once on things. Just because the web and media demand it doesn't make it the highest priority. It is an issue, there is time to consider it in due course.

This is, above all else, Sen. Feingold's Resolution. He is a politician and should be exercising his political skills to persuade his colleagues to vote for this. He should be doing everything possible to put this in play as a realistic thing. The ball is in his court.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. On getting their message across
I'm not sure that Gore's messages get out beyond the liberal boards. The media seems to extract the angriest sounding phrases and show just those, making Gore into a scary, very angry person. I think that the Feingold message of censure is getting out and is playing well to the growing segment who hate (or strongly dislike Bush.)

It is a real opportunity to him - if he can lead all the angry people against Bush for the next 2 years and still be seen as likable enough to win the Presidency, he will be the best candidate. This will be no easy feat. Consider all the posts over the last year demanding that Kerry do EVERYTHING the angriest, most radical part of the party wants. Feingold risks being treated (as Kerry is now) if he "lets them down" or being seen as too strident by mainstream Democrats. (I don't have a clear enough view of Feingold's personality to know if he's more like Kerry, who is really hard to portray as angry or like Gore or Dean.)

As to censure, he may agree with it - in the sense that it is deserved (he has said it was illegal), but prefer the investigation alternative. When others have said things close to this, it is spun as being against Feingold. He will likely have to make a comment at some point though.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
20. He was excellent -
He even succeeded bringing the issue of public financing at the end of the discussion.

I hope his colleagues will not underestimate him and will also follow his example. The man knows how to put his name on important bills and keeping it on them, for example. Sad as it is, these types of details count, and if a bill for public financing was to succeed, the public would credit the person whose name is on it rather than the person who pushed it for years (as in many other issues).

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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
46. No, but I agree with you
He's a great senator, does his job very well. His listening sessions are famous: he visits every one of our 72 counties once a year to listen to the people. (haha--Sensenbrenner is trying to copy this, but only schedules about a half hour at each stop--hardly enough time to clear one's throat!)

BUT--Russ isn't the public speaker that JK is, and he does need a charisma transplant. He's understated; even his victory speech at his last reelection was "ho-hum". He'd make a good vice president--as long as the presidential candidate had the personality to carry them both. ;)
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. I'm so glad you made that point
Feingold is among the top 10 Democratic U.S. Senators.

To the point, how many times has the ho-hum argument been used against Kerry when it's clear there nothing else to say?

So that's my issue. When charges of cowardice for not speaking up against Bush (not true) or not standing up for Democratic issues (not true) are being hurled around, I'm going to defend Kerry's position and other Democrats like Boxer and Kennedy who have done their part. And when Kerry gets attacked and gets no support, but is expected show strong and immediate support for a measure that is probably at best an opportunity for debate, I take issue.

On Feingold, I take issue with his supporters trying to qualify his Roberts vote while berating Kerry for leading the Alito filibuster and attacking Democrats over censure. This should have been about Republicans and Bush not the Democrats. I imagine if the debate had been framed that way, and it still would have been a debate, people would be calling Republicans too. As it stands, that letter urging people to contact Senators fell flat. Feingold is responsible for leading this charge.

I remember shortly after the election when Kerry sent out that e-mail urging people to call Frist and Hastert. People were still angry at him for conceding, but about 35,000 calls were made to their offices within a day.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
56. I just caught it on CanOFun
My opinion hasn't changed. In fairness, maybe he needs more practice at doing appearances like this--maybe that's all it is. Kerry's been at it so much longer. Still there is something to be said for innate ability. ;)
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. People only remember what they want to. Speaking of calling Bush out:
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 03:47 AM by ProSense
Press Release of Senator Boxer
Boxer Asks Presidential Scholars About Former White House Counsel's Statement that Bush Admitted to an 'Impeachable Offense'


Monday, December 19, 2005

Washington, D.C.– U.S. Senator Barbara Boxer (D-CA) today asked four presidential scholars for their opinion on former White House Counsel John Dean’s statement that President Bush admitted to an “impeachable offense” when he said he authorized the National Security Agency to spy on Americans without getting a warrant from a judge.

Boxer said, “I take very seriously Mr. Dean’s comments, as I view him to be an expert on Presidential abuse of power. I am expecting a full airing of this matter by the Senate in the very near future.”

Boxer’s letter is as follows:

On December 16, along with the rest of America, I learned that President Bush authorized the National Security Agency to spy on Americans without getting a warrant from a judge. President Bush underscored his support for this action in his press conference today.

On Sunday, December 18, former White House Counsel John Dean and I participated in a public discussion that covered many issues, including this surveillance. Mr. Dean, who was President Nixon’s counsel at the time of Watergate, said that President Bush is “the first President to admit to an impeachable offense.” Today, Mr. Dean confirmed his statement.

This startling assertion by Mr. Dean is especially poignant because he experienced first hand the executive abuse of power and a presidential scandal arising from the surveillance of American citizens.

Given your constitutional expertise, particularly in the area of presidential impeachment, I am writing to ask for your comments and thoughts on Mr. Dean’s statement.

Unchecked surveillance of American citizens is troubling to both me and many of my constituents. I would appreciate your thoughts on this matter as soon as possible.

Sincerely,

Barbara Boxer

United States Senator



Boxer was attacked before they found out she signed on.



Kerry:


“This is what the Administration was trying so desperately to hide when it attacked Ambassador Wilson and compromised national security by outing his wife. It is shameful that to this day Republicans continue to attack Ambassador Wilson rather than condemning the fact that those sixteen words were ever spoken, and that so many lies were told to cover it up. How are the same Republicans who tried to impeach a President over whether he misled a nation about an affair going to pretend it does not matter if the Administration intentionally misled the country into war?



And let's get that Iraq inquiry started.



Afraid?
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-22-06 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
5. Updating my ignore list tonight.
Some people are just trolls and it is sad that they are allowed to post.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
15. like drug addicts
they get off on it. especially considering the type of comments they post. just assholish type things. i'm convinced some of these are Freeper trolls.
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 04:02 AM
Response to Original message
18. I guess I kinda missed out on the chaos. Good thing.
I'm trying to sustain a positive mood right now and I don't want any trolls to mess it up. Grrrr. I hate trolls.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
38. Did anyone by chance capture that first post?
I'd like to track down the Village Voice article that was mentioned - assuming it exists at all. I expect the author will turn out to be a member of the set that includes Joshua Frank and Alexander Cockburn and the rest of the counterpuke crowd.
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Do you remember anything about it?
Edited on Thu Mar-23-06 10:51 AM by whometense
A while back I read an article by this VV writer - Sydney Schanberg - who's written some realllllllly nasty stuff about JK.

Edited to remove pestilential link.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. That's it!
I have the link now (** ahem **) - if it's not too late you may want to remove it. You or I can pm it to whoever else needs it.

What's in that article is stuff I've seen before, and there is plenty of debunking material around. Now that I know what that troll was referring to, I can pull together a summary. Thanks!
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Happy to have you out there
debunking! ;-)
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #41
53. Thanks! n/t
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. I saw that garbage in 2004
What's said is that Schanberg had an excellent reputation as a reporter from his Cambodia coverage. This shows what a minefield that whole investigation was. That the goal was to prove a negative is the first clue.

The only thing I can think of is that Schanberg was able to give credence to the idea that Nixon was evil enough to leave POWs behind. The descrepancy between the POW/MIA numbers and those returned was expectable - and it may be that some bodies will never be found and returned.

Kerry would have absolutely no motive to hiding it. If the men were alive, he and any decent American would have done everything in their power to bring them back. Doing this would have made Kerry a hero again and completely destroyed Nixon, Kissinger et al forever. If they could prove they were there and killed years after the war, again - it reflects badly on the people who put Kerry on their enemies' list.

What's sick is that people were willing to prey on these men's survivors emotions - I can't blame them from holding out hope.
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Well said.
And I agree. I read some of this stuff in 2004 as well (and have NO desire to revisit it now), and he seemed to start from a really negative view of JK. And to have bought into the garbage that nutjob (forget his name) was always spewing about JK and the POW/MIA issue.

I guess the theory (eerily similar to those about JK's Vietnam service, when you think about it) was that he was so eager to burnish his political reputation by normalizing relations with Vietnam that he sold out the missing soldiers' interests to get there.

A few problems with that:

* JK's unending dedication to the rights of the people who have fought for our country.

* The fact that the whole issue of Vietnam was a political hot potato no one wanted to touch at the time. (And it still is a hot potato. It still comes up every single day in some way or another. It is the war that will, apparently, never end.)
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. Also the obvious:
Which would interest our ADD media:

- Kerry proving Nixon left men behind (this was before the RW media, alsoNixon was alive)
- Kerry welcoming men kept in cativity for 20+ years - this would have gotten rid of all Nixon people from office

OR

Clinton openning relations with Vietnam and barely mentioning Kerry had anything to do with this in his 2004 autobiography. He simply said that the support of the Vietnam vets including Kerry - McCain and Kerrey listed first even though from McCain's book it was Kerry and himself who laid out the case to Clinton with Kerry speaking for an hour and McCain saying "I agree with Kerry".

Even when it worked, he got very little credit.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-23-06 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. I have a hard time dealing with others not giving Kerry credit when
credit is due. This is so frustrating. If the egotists like Clinton are only going to talk about everything in the context of how it affects them, I can't understand why Senator Kerry wouldn't be out there tooting his own horn and setting the record straight. he is like that song, "Wings Beneath my Feet".
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